u.s. politics: molotov cocktail through the overton window

[IamMe90]

1 hour ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

lol buddy thats what we've been saying

Maybe everyone's just been taking turns misunderstanding each other heh heh

[all swedes are racist]

14 minutes ago, Zorral said:

but-BUT-But- BUTTTTTTT -- what about her e-mails??????????????????????

huh?

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

Maybe everyone's just been taking turns misunderstanding each other heh heh

Apparently.

1 hour ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-defense-policy-bill-20170918-story.html

but, uh, how are we gonna pay for it

Yeah this is McCain gone wild.  Ya got Corker against it - 

Quote

Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., said he voted against the defense bill because the measure "blows the budget caps by nearly $83 billion." Corker, who chairs the Foreign Relations Committee, also said the overseas missions account is "repeatedly abused" to pay for normal operations.

And, as per usual, an incoming SecDef tries to close bases, and Congress says NEVER!

Quote

As their House counterparts did, the Senate bill rejects Mattis' plan to launch a new round of base closings starting in 2021. He told lawmakers in June that closing excess installations would save $10 billion over a five-year period. Mattis said the savings could be used to acquire four nuclear submarines or dozens of jet fighters. But military installations are prized possessions in states and lawmakers refused to go along.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

2 hours ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

no, that's not all he is saying. he has repeatedly equated antifa or anyone willing to use violence against the far right nationalists as 'just as bad as nazis' 

In terms of enthusiasm for violence, that's not an inaccurate statement. But I've not read any suggestion that the ideological position should in anyway be equated.

[all swedes are racist]

2 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

In terms of enthusiasm for violence, that's not an inaccurate statement. But I've not read any suggestion that the ideological position should in anyway be equated.

if that's your definition, it's so broad as to be meaningless. but, seeing as there are any number of defining traits that characterize nazis/fascists, beyond the simple use of or "enthusiasm for" violence, we can all agree that it is a wildly inaccurate statement and move on

[The Anti-Targ]

2 hours ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

lol buddy thats what we've been saying

Is it though? It seems there are plenty of people among those who oppose the WS&N who are quite enthusiastically in favour of a strategy of violence. And it seems Antifa very much has violence as part of its strategic plan to oppose.

If I am wrong that some people on this forum are in favour of planned, premeditated violent attacks on WS&N groups then I apologise for mis-reading them. I'm not sure I am wrong though.

[Altherion]

8 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

If the general public see’s what they perceive as the left promoting violence then they’ll equate that with the more clear promotion of violence by the right.

There's an article about this in the generally anti-Trump Bloomberg:

Quote

 

I don’t have an ironclad date for when antifa became a recognizable, and destructive, force in our politics. But I really began to notice them around the time of Trump’s election, when I saw people defending their actions on the grounds that they were trying to stop Trump from being “normalized.” It was argued that protesting-as-usual -- show up, mill around for a while, chant a bit, and then go home to see how much news coverage you got -- was inadequate to our uniquely dangerous historical moment. Stronger action was called for.

I think it’s safe to say that Donald Trump has not been normalized by anyone. The media treats him with deep contempt -- mostly earned, I’d argue, but still not the normal way you expect to see a president portrayed. Foreign leaders sure don’t seem to think he is normal, and nor do the bureaucracy or the courts. And partisans on both sides are behaving distinctly abnormally. They do not see themselves as arguing over policy or even values, but as engaged in an existential battle between good and evil, with President Trump as the avatar for one side or another.

But the process of not normalizing Trump has instead normalized a lot of other things, bad ones. Like public disorder. Like persistent, pervasive anxiety that often looks like mass hysteria. Like people on both sides who try to minimize the illiberal tactics of the radicals on their own side by pointing mostly to the offenses of the other.

 

I think the antifa and their supporters are underestimating how disliked they are, both in terms of the number of people who dislike them and the intensity.

[all swedes are racist]

22 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Is it though? It seems there are plenty of people among those who oppose the WS&N who are quite enthusiastically in favour of a strategy of violence. And it seems Antifa very much has violence as part of its strategic plan to oppose.

If I am wrong that some people on this forum are in favour of planned, premeditated violent attacks on WS&N groups then I apologise for mis-reading them. I'm not sure I am wrong though.

 

2 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

There is a difference between violence as an immediate, protective reaction to a dangerous situation, and violence as a premeditated political strategy.

the anti fascists are taking immediate protective action in standing up to a dangerous situtation, to whit the violence as a premediated political strategy inherent to fascism and white supremacy

[all swedes are racist]

oh no, i am coming down on the wrong side of the morality fence as altherion and lou thrawnbold, must be time for some serious self reflection

eta: linking an op ed decrying violence by megen fucking mcardle lmfao

[denstorebog]

Did we miss this little nugget of joy?

 St. Louis police officers chant ‘whose street, our street’ during protests

I hear they couldn't find anything to rhyme with "we'll kick your fucking teeth in" so they just went with stealing someone else's chant.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 hours ago, Altherion said:

There's an article about this in the generally anti-Trump Bloomberg:

I think the antifa and their supporters are underestimating how disliked they are, both in terms of the number of people who dislike them and the intensity.

You have to also consider that humans have a tendency to create dualities, even if they are nonsensical. Hence why violence on left can be equated with violence on the right, even if they’re in no way equal.

[KingintheNorth4]

Trump once again refers to Kim Jong-Un as "Rocket Man" during his speech to the UN General Assembly. He also says that the US may have no choice but to "totally destroy North Korea." 

It's all just a dick measuring contest to this buffoon. Hurling childish insults at a nuclear armed dictator. Fucking hell.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

It's a sad day when you realize Archie Bunker is more Progressive and more coherent than the POTUS in 2017:

(heads up, this contains some fairly offensive language as Archie Bunker was meant to satirize the 1960s-era American bigot)

Got me thinking about sanctuary cities though. It's interesting that with a man like Trump in the White House and the GOP controlling both houses of Congress, it's now liberals who are using the doctrine of State Rights to protect their ideals from federal overreach.

As well they should.  If the federal government is exceeding it authority in attempting to punish sanctuary cities retained state powers should operate as a sheild to push back against that overreach by the Feds.

[TheKitttenGuard]

The return of Bush era absolute language is getting big cheer on the Right. Trump restarted "The Axis of Evil". Though the absolute bankruptcy of threatening to totally destroy a nation and than accusing another nation of the same does not register but that is nothing new.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I’m listening to NPR and they’re reporting that at one point members in the audience were laughing at Trump.

Sorry world, our bad.

[denstorebog]

1 hour ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Christ, I'm putting all my hopes in the Russian probe at this point.

That would be a colossal mistake.

[denstorebog]

2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Okay, I'll do that other thing that might ameliorate the situation.

  Reveal hidden contents

Nothing

 

Nah, I won't take the Great Probe Hope from you. It's just good to be realistic about what it can achieve. For example, I have absolutely no idea how it could lead to impeachment. There's a notion that a Republican congress will trigger impeachment if it becomes politically unfeasible for them to not impeach. But in today's political climate, what does that even mean? Republicans survive on Trump voters, and Trump voters won't give a shit that a Washington special counsel or any number of courts says Trump is a criminal. Supporting impeachment could well be political suicide for most R lawmakers. So do we really believe that two thirds of R lawmakers are willing to go against their president, throw their own party into chaos and lose their job over what will probably be seen as a leftist witch hunt by many of their own?

But I suppose a convincing case could erode some support and trust among Republicans that would be crucial down the line. Who the fuck even knows anymore.

[Kalbear]

Probably the best case outcome I can see from the probe showing how messed up everything is would be to have the following happen:

• Congress as a whole does not support Trump at any level and passes a number of laws and possibly constitutional amendments restricting executive power
• Changing of the electoral college rules or obliterating them outright
• Major criminal trials and jail time for a number of higher-ups
• Kushner and Ivanka out of the White House

That's still likely optimistic but it's far more realistic than impeachment. 

[Kalbear]

Also, John Kelly during the UN speech is pretty amazing.

https://twitter.com/edsbs/status/910240896934928384

[Morpheus]

I think it is very optimistic to think Republicans will act on the Mueller probe if he finds wrongdoing. Just on the face of it, obstruction of justice looks very plausible, but after the Comey testimony, Ryan basically said "he is new to all of this, he didn't mean it like it sounded," the R talking points have also shifted from No Collusion to what does collusion mean, really?