Brannis the Mannis

Why didn't Arya add Jaime to her list?

19 posts in this topic

Clearly she knows that he's killed Jory and wounded Ned, but still she never recites his name even though she includes people like Dunsen for stealing a helm. Am I missing something here? 

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If I am remembering right, the only people she has on her "list" are, 

A. Those who were directly involved in her father's execution (which she [almost] witnessed.)

and

B. The Mountain's men who personally wronged her or her friends after they were taken prisoner.

It does seem like she would remember and brood over the murder of Jory and his men, but as far as I can tell these are the only two groups of people that are in her prayer.

 

Edited by Foot_Of_The_King

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Do we actually know that Jaime definitely isn't on her list? And just isn't in a section that she hasn't repeated? I mean, it's not like she's ever gone through the entire list in such a way that we know everyone on it.

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I found this to be a curious omission, as well. The honest answer is probably that George has plans for Jaime that require him to live longer than the other people on Arya's list. As for the in-universe explanation. . . maybe by the time she found out about Jory's death, Jaime had already been taken prisoner by Robb, so she figured he would be dead soon anyway? I don't think that adds up timeline-wise, but it's the best I've got.

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Is there anyone on her list for an event she hasn't witnessed? Cersei is on for ordering Micah's and Lady's death, isn't she (and making it necessary to drive Nymeria away) and Joffrey's on it for that incident that led to Micah's death and for ordering Ned's death.  People drop off her list too, like Sandor. 

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41 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Is there anyone on her list for an event she hasn't witnessed? Cersei is on for ordering Micah's and Lady's death, isn't she (and making it necessary to drive Nymeria away) and Joffrey's on it for that incident that led to Micah's death and for ordering Ned's death.  People drop off her list too, like Sandor. 

That was my line of thinking. It's all events that she's personally witnessed. 

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6 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

That was my line of thinking. It's all events that she's personally witnessed. 

For that matter, is Walder Frey or any of the Freys on her list?

Spoiler

I know they all were on the show.

I don't think the Freys were. Technically, Arya was "there", but didn't actually see what went on in the twin towers, and for a long time, refused to believe her mother (and maybe Robb) was dead. And it seems as if she re-directed her rage towards the poor Hound, who was only guilty of saving her life. (The man has a clear head, thinks fast, and has good instincts.)

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I don't think Jamie made her list because she doesn't know exactly what happened in the street the day Jamie attacked Ned and Jory.  What details would you tell a little girl?   

I seem to recall the official story being Ned and his men were coming out of a brothel when confronted by Lannister men, and I would also assume Jamie's name was intentionally left out.

Ned was really the only one to know the truth, and do you think he'd tell Arya? 

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It's the same reason she doesn't use Jaqen H'ghar to kill Tywin Lannister and win the war -

11 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

That was my line of thinking. It's all events that she's personally witnessed. 

That would match up with her using her two "deaths for the Red God" on Chiswyck and Weese, two utterly insignificant assholes who happened to hit Arya, rather than on, say, Tywin Lannister and ending the war.

It's about justice vs. vengeance - Arya places a big priority on feeling she wants somebody dead because of a way they wronged her and her pack to her face, rather than determining that killing them is warranted by the scope of what they have done in the past to people who may or may not have deserved it.

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7 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

It's the same reason she doesn't use Jaqen H'ghar to kill Tywin Lannister and win the war -

That would match up with her using her two "deaths for the Red God" on Chiswyck and Weese, two utterly insignificant assholes who happened to hit Arya, rather than on, say, Tywin Lannister and ending the war.

It's about justice vs. vengeance - Arya places a big priority on feeling she wants somebody dead because of a way they wronged her and her pack to her face, rather than determining that killing them is warranted by the scope of what they have done in the past to people who may or may not have deserved it.

But what about Chiswyck? Didn't she ask for his death for bragging about raping a 13 years old girl she didn't even know?

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20 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I found this to be a curious omission, as well. The honest answer is probably that George has plans for Jaime that require him to live longer than the other people on Arya's list. As for the in-universe explanation. . . maybe by the time she found out about Jory's death, Jaime had already been taken prisoner by Robb, so she figured he would be dead soon anyway? I don't think that adds up timeline-wise, but it's the best I've got.

Yeap, cause plot. And all the names were entered on her list after Cersei's purge. The incident with Jaime happened before that. (It's thin, but the best I got.)

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20 hours ago, Castellan said:

Is there anyone on her list for an event she hasn't witnessed? Cersei is on for ordering Micah's and Lady's death, isn't she (and making it necessary to drive Nymeria away) and Joffrey's on it for that incident that led to Micah's death and for ordering Ned's death.  People drop off her list too, like Sandor. 

The Hound was on her list, but I don't think Sandor ever was. 

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12 hours ago, zandru said:

For that matter, is Walder Frey or any of the Freys on her list?

  Hide contents

I know they all were on the show.

I don't think the Freys were. Technically, Arya was "there", but didn't actually see what went on in the twin towers, and for a long time, refused to believe her mother (and maybe Robb) was dead. And it seems as if she re-directed her rage towards the poor Hound, who was only guilty of saving her life. (The man has a clear head, thinks fast, and has good instincts.)

At some point she says they would be if she knew their names, I think. 

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51 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeap, cause plot. And all the names were entered on her list after Cersei's purge. The incident with Jaime happened before that. (It's thin, but the best I got.)

This is another reason why I don't think Jaime and Cersei are going to die together, the way a lot of readers think they will. If that were the case, then there would be no reason for him not to be on Arya's list. Jaime's omission is a plot hole than can only really be explained away by him needing to be around longer than his sister. 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Hound was on her list, but I don't think Sandor ever was. 

RU making a subtle distinction or just momentarily forgot he is the hound? I don't think its a distinction in Arya's mind. As she gets to know him, her need for revenge on him diminishes despite her own determination. Also, he is not as bad as the others on the list, but was technically honourably following his duty to obey (very doglike) when he killed Micah. He also wins the trial by combat and is released by the BWB.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This is another reason why I don't think Jaime and Cersei are going to die together, the way a lot of readers think they will. If that were the case, then there would be no reason for him not to be on Arya's list. Jaime's omission is a plot hole than can only really be explained away by him needing to be around longer than his sister. 

I also think they probably won't die together, but I think the main reason he's not there is she is not aware of his throwing Bran out a window, and he failed to find her in time to cut her arm off or deliver her to Cersei - luckily Ned's men found her first. 

I also think his not being on the list is an indication of his role as a sympathetic and fascinating character. He really does not belong with the likes of Polliver and the Tickler.

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8 hours ago, Castellan said:

RU making a subtle distinction or just momentarily forgot he is the hound? I don't think its a distinction in Arya's mind. As she gets to know him, her need for revenge on him diminishes despite her own determination. Also, he is not as bad as the others on the list, but was technically honourably following his duty to obey (very doglike) when he killed Micah. He also wins the trial by combat and is released by the BWB.

I also think they probably won't die together, but I think the main reason he's not there is she is not aware of his throwing Bran out a window, and he failed to find her in time to cut her arm off or deliver her to Cersei - luckily Ned's men found her first. 

I also think his not being on the list is an indication of his role as a sympathetic and fascinating character. He really does not belong with the likes of Polliver and the Tickler.

I don't really care what Arya of House Stark thinks about Sandor of House Clegane, formerly called the Hound. Both characters are nothing but figments of some fat man's imagination. I am interested in the way the author weaves issues of identity throughout ASOIAF. The elder brother has told us that the Hound is dead. Others believe he is ravaging the Riverlands in a case of mistaken identity, but we know that Sandor, a good man with a very checkered past, is seeking redemption, or at least some measure of peace, on the Quiet Isle.  

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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The common thread of the people in her list is that they hurt people who Arya felt personally responsible for and made her feel powerless. She felt personally guilty about Mycah's fate. She fought during Amory Lorch's attack during which Yoren died. During both her father's execution and the Red Wedding she tried both times to go to her parents aid. She got captured by the Mountain trying to rescue Gendry. Dunsen got in the list for taking Gendry's helmet and Poliver for taking needle. Chiswyck is the one who initially disarmed her. Tickler and Weese are on the list for frightening her into submission.

She didn't witness Jaime's attack nor was she there to prevent it and failed to do so.

Or there was considerable time between Jaime's attack and her making her list. Still the list isn't so much about revenge as redress of her own powerlessness.

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16 hours ago, elipride said:

But what about Chiswyck? Didn't she ask for his death for bragging about raping a 13 years old girl she didn't even know?

This is an interesting one. Chiswyck hits Arya in the face, is cruel to her and her friends, terrorizes Hot Pie and threatens to murder him. He is already on Arya's list before he brags about being part of the gang rape.

But the Mountain is also on Arya's list already, and the Mountain was in charge of the gang rape, and Arya doesn't name him.

This all raises the question of who is actually responsible for bad things, and who gets held accountable for them, and how sometimes they do tend to line up in ways that feel right, but sometimes even when they do that there are other things that don't line up at all - but it's not clear if it's for the right reason.

And this of course is all pretty similar to Oberyn's situation with the Mountain, but from a different perspective - where on a surface level the Mountain killed his sister and her children, but he doesn't just want the Mountain, he wants Tywin, the guy who gave the order.

Arya and Oberyn seem to approach this sort of choice from opposite directions. Oberyn makes it appear personal, when really he's looking for the deeper causes, and Arya makes it look like she's looking for a deeper cause, but really for her it's personal.

It might be because Arya had to listen to Chiswyck brag, and she dealt with Chiswyck more, she hated him more, and that's she named him. It seems like something happens in the moment when Arya hears him tell the story that sets her off.

But yeah, it's not simple.

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