Aegon the Conqueror's swordsmanship

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Qhorin Volmark was killed by Aegon the Conqueror using Blackfyre, yes, but we don't know whether this was a proper duel - or part of some battle - or merely an execution. I strongly assume it was the latter because there is no sign the Targaryens had to fight the Ironborn after Balerion bathed them in fire, and the idea that Aegon would have agreed to the notion to fight a pretender king personally is insane. He didn't do that back while he was conquering the Seven Kingdoms, and there is no reason whatsoever why he should have done that after he had conquered them.

The wording of what took place between Aegon and Qhorin doesn't sound like a execution. Would it really be that insane for Aegon to fight Qhorin in a duel? Only  2 or 3 years later Aegon agreed to fight the champion of House Tolands in a duel, when he really didn't have to. Yeah, their champion turned out to be a fool but Aegon didn't know that when he agreed to it.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

The wording of what took place between Aegon and Qhorin doesn't sound like a execution. Would it really be that insane for Aegon to fight Qhorin in a duel? Only  2 or 3 years later Aegon agreed to fight the champion of House Tolands in a duel, when he really didn't have to. Yeah, their champion turned out to be a fool but Aegon didn't know that when he agreed to it.

The precise wording:

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The ironmen collapsed before him [Aegon, his dragon, and his fleet]. Qhorin Volmark died at the Conqueror’s own hand, cut down by Aegon’s Valyrian steel blade, Blackfyre.

Details are lacking. It could be an execution or a death in battle. A duel is very unlikely since the Ironborn were already collapsing. Why on earth should Aegon fight with that dude in single combat? He was only a minor lord from Harlaw whose grandmother happened to be a younger sister of Harwyn Hardhand.

The Toland situation is somewhat but even there it is not clear that this was a duel. The complete wording there goes like that:

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Aegon had more success, but other than the brief siege at Yronwood, where he was opposed by a handful of old men, boys, and women, he found little opposition. Even Skyreach, the great seat of the Fowlers, was abandoned. At Ghost Hill, the seat of House Toland atop the white chalk hill that overlooks the Sea of Dorne, Aegon saw the banner bearing the Toland ghost flying above the walls and received word that Lord Toland had sent out his champion to face him. Aegon slew the man with his sword, Blackfyre, only to learn that he was Lord Toland’s mad fool and that Lord Toland himself was gone with his household from the castle. In later days, the Tolands would take a new banner, showing a dragon biting its own tail, green on gold in memory of the motley of their brave fool.

It could just as well be that Aegon merely dispatched this fool. Usually a single combat or duel is about something - deciding the outcome of a battle or siege or even a war - not just something great and important people do for no good reason. And Aegon would actually have no good reason whatsoever to enter into a single combat with the champion of Ghost Hill.

But the reason why I brought up the fool and why we are discussing him and Volmark is that these are the only two instances where Aegon the Conqueror actually kills anyone personally with his sword. And neither opponent is described as particularly fearsome or strong. Even if both of those incidents were single combats - which I don't think they were - then Aegon winning those doesn't mean he is one of the greatest fighters in (Targaryen) history.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The precise wording:

Details are lacking. It could be an execution or a death in battle. A duel is very unlikely since the Ironborn were already collapsing. Why on earth should Aegon fight with that dude in single combat? He was only a minor lord from Harlaw whose grandmother happened to be a younger sister of Harwyn Hardhand.

The Toland situation is somewhat but even there it is not clear that this was a duel. The complete wording there goes like that:

It could just as well be that Aegon merely dispatched this fool. Usually a single combat or duel is about something - deciding the outcome of a battle or siege or even a war - not just something great and important people do for no good reason. And Aegon would actually have no good reason whatsoever to enter into a single combat with the champion of Ghost Hill.

But the reason why I brought up the fool and why we are discussing him and Volmark is that these are the only two instances where Aegon the Conqueror actually kills anyone personally with his sword. And neither opponent is described as particularly fearsome or strong. Even if both of those incidents were single combats - which I don't think they were - then Aegon winning those doesn't mean he is one of the greatest fighters in (Targaryen) history.

You wouldn't use  "cut down" or "slew" if it was a execution. Those are words you hear from  a duel or battle. Thats why I said the wording doesn't sound like a execution, I could be wrong tho. I never once said Aegon was one of the greatest Targs fighters ever. We simply don't  know how good or bad he was.

[Leo of House Cartel]

I expect Aegon would have been one of the best fighters of his day, regardless of the lack of a long list of vanquished opponents - and Blood and Fire/Sons of The Dragon may even shed light on any potential Aegon one on ones.

Training alongside Visenya and Orys would have given Aegon at least adequate skill with a blade, especially if his siblings were superior in their technique - Iron Sharpens Iron, after all, so what does Valyrian steel do?

The tall and athletically built Daemon Blackfyre, a regular on "greatest hardmen lists", was noted to bare striking resemblance to Aegon The Dragon, indicating the Conqueror would himself have resembled "a god". This does not mean he would have had any level of combat craftsmanship, but it at least points to Aegon having impressive genetics, the kind which often make for a difficult opponent, regardless of technical skill. If someone with such genetics can then master the technical aspects of their martial art then they tend to become gifted fighters.

As a man who weighted his actions and liked to plan, check out his kooky table for proof,  I can't see any reason why The Dragon would have neglected his swordsmanship. He planned on conquering Westeros, and must have known that his beloved Balerion might not always be there. His only friend was said to be Orys, who was a noted warrior, one would think the brothers would do as brothers tend to do and help each other improve/try to one up each other.

That being said, one on one combat was rightfully beneath the King. The man rode the biggest dragon in the world, he had helped crush the might of Volantis by the time he was 26 - and if you want to get real technical, through this victory he could claim rule of old Valyria by rights of conquest. He helped defeat Volantis, who hailed themselves heirs to the freehold and were attempting a takeover of their own. He would certainly have a better claim than the rulers of Pentos, Lys or Tyrosh, due to his dragons, family tree and eventual conquest of such a large country.

What then would it really have meant to Aegon to fight the likes of Lorren Lannister or Harren Hoare, what would it have proven other than arrogance and foolishness on The Lord of Dragonstone's part?

He simply did not need to engage in regular bout of single combat with the best Westerosi fighters of his day who, if the history books show us anything, amounted to nothing more than a bunch of jabronis anyway.

One aspect of The Dragon I feel is often overlooked by the fandom is Aegon's Garden. One would think the garden would be named for Rhaenys, due to her love of song and beauty, but it's her brother who gets the nod. This to me points at Aegon being a deep thinker, with perhaps even a strong, if warped, appreciation for life. 

By the way, that garden for reminds me of the thorny forrest where the dragon/witch dies in Sleeping Beauty.

@Lord Varys How about Aemond One-Eye? He seemed to enjoy the practice yard, was close with the masterful Criston Cole, and had the confidence and thirst for battle often associated with his uncle Daemon.

[snow is the man]

aegon was a great warrior but I think his sister visenya was as good as or better. Acording to the history of ice and fire aegon was very good swordsmen but didn't specifically mention anything besides killing assasins and the fool the yronwoods sent out.

[snow is the man]

15 hours ago, Nihlus said:

It's hilarious that you think this actually proves anything about Visenya's skill at arms. Neither Aegon nor the guardsmen were exactly expecting Visenya to cut her brother. An actual duel would be different. Same deal with the Dornish assassins, and that has the added "benefit" of us not knowing anything about how the situation played out.

Again, unless Aegon was a complete wuss with no skill at all (which would be highly unlikely for a man of his upbringing) it's not actually that hard to leverage such a huge advantage. Fights between heavily armored combatants were all about wrestling and grappling, very messy affairs.

We have no great feats for Visenya either. Except Aegon is a tall and powerfully built man with a lord's upbringing, while Visenya is much smaller and weaker. That automatically gives him an enormous advantage, and it would require a considerable amount of evidence for the assertion that Visenya was a better fighter to hold any water.

Bloodraven is not Visenya. If you don't have any evidence of her enhancing her fighting abilities with magic, then she didn't enhance her fighting abilities with magic.

wait what kind of magic did bloodraven do to make him a better fighter? I know he could warg and supposedly use glamour but those don't make him better with a sword.

[Nihlus]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We do know that Visenya was skilled at arms. And we are not talking about duels or anything. We are talking about who is the better fighter, and the ability to surprise someone during a fight is part of that. And Visenya didn't back stab Aegon or anything - she attacked his face, and he was helpless to stop her. If he didn't see that coming he was stupid and ill-prepared - and both are not characteristics you would use to describe a great fighter. Everyone who approaches you with a weapon is a potential threat, never mind who it is.

That's stupid. She's his sister and queen, of course no one is going to expect her to randomly pull out a blade and try to cut him. It doesn't indicate she has any skill at arms.

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We are not talking about who might be able to overpower somebody in wrestling match or anything.

If we're talking about who would win in a fight, then yes we are. If they both have access to high quality armor, which they do, then the fight will devolve into grappling.

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But brute strength does not make you a great fighter.

Yes it does; every knight or lord expected to lead an army into combat has similar martial training, enough that the differences between their skills are pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things. They all train with the best martial tutors every day of their lives since they can walk. The true differences separating the best from the rest? Physicality. Gregor, Sandor, Jaime, Garlan, Barristan, Arthur, Brienne... all warriors noted for being particularly tall and muscular/strong. 

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Or take Oberyn Martell and Gregor Clegane. The latter was clearly stronger than the former yet Oberyn still overpowered him, indicating that he was the better fighter who would have won the duel had he finished it quickly.

Oberyn was a fucking superhuman and don't let anyone tell you differently. He was quite possibly the second strongest man in the world. Because of off-screen dabbling with magic or because Martin is a bad writer, I do not know, but that is what is depicted. That scene where he rams his spear through Gregor's thrice-thick plate armor, through his bulky body, through two mail shirts and two layers of boiled leather, and then through another thrice-thick layer of plate armor, and then into the stone floor with enough force to pin Gregor to the floor and embed the spear into the ground? While pole vaulting in full mail? Not possible without incredible inhuman strength.

Despite this though, plus Oberyn using a spear and staying out of Gregor's reach (Visenya doesn't use a spear, she uses a sword), plus Oberyn using human shields, plus Oberyn getting another spear after Gregor broke his first one, plus Oberyn's use of a poison which is supposed to instantly cripple whoever it hits immediately (per Tyene) but "merely" weakened Gregor enough for Oberyn to have a chance here, the fight still ended with Gregor victorious.

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Or take Bronn and Vardis Egen - the latter may have been physically stronger than Bronn yet he lost the duel.

The latter was a fifty-something year old man using inefficient ceremonial weaponry who had a statue fall on him. Even without the statue being a factor I highly doubt Bronn was less fit than him.

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Visenya had the same upbringing as Aegon and trained with him in the yard on Dragonstone. And we don't actually know who put more effort into becoming a great fighter - she or he. The idea that being a man makes Aegon per se the better fighter does not convince me. On average this might be true but not (necessarily) in this special case.

Oh, and by the way - I never said I believe Visenya could defeat Aegon in a proper duel. They knew each other intimately and had trained together. Both would know each other's weaknesses very well so Aegon might have the knowledge to outmaneuver Visenya and use her weaknesses against her. Or not. Difficult to say. I honestly doubt Aegon had it in him to kill his sister-wife. But I think Visenya was perfectly capable of killing her brother-husband if she felt she had to - giving her the advantage you need to defeat a person you (sort of) love.

Well sure, but that's not really relevant to which one is the better fighter. If Aegon actually wanted to he could easily kill Visenya. Barring extraordinary evidence of her prowess, any knight would be able to do so, as they'd all have similar upbringing to Visenya (training to fight since they could walk) on top of far superior physicality and very likely more combat experience. 

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Well, we don't know for sure Bloodraven was a sorcerer back during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, do we? Or during the days of Aerys I? We just have rumors and speculation - just as we do with Visenya. But we do know magic works in this world and is an important concept behind a lot things that do happen. Dismissing the possibility out of hand is foolish. If people are rumored to be sorcerers then we should take that into account when we are discussing those people.

Randomly assuming a character uses magic to aid them in combat when they're never shown to do so is what's foolish.

[Ran]

We know Aegon the Conqueror trained from childhood, as did Visenya, and that both were "true warriors" (unlike Rhaenys). This doesn't necessarily mean they were fantastic fighters, however. Either could have been no better than Ned, who George describes as capable but not great. Being trained from childhood isn't going to guarantee you're a great anything, especially in a world where all your peers are also being trained from childhood; look at the massive ranks of young athletes who don't get anywhere near professional levels because they just lack that "something" -- usually some mixture of physical and mental capabilities, depending on the sport -- that would put them in the top .1% who could make a living in their chosen area of expertise.

That's all the evidence we have. Everything else is speculative.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I expect Aegon would have been one of the best fighters of his day, regardless of the lack of a long list of vanquished opponents - and Blood and Fire/Sons of The Dragon may even shed light on any potential Aegon one on ones.

TSotD doesn't. It describes to us how good Aenys and Maegor are at arms, and gives us a list of Maegor's accomplishments in tourney and war, but the Conqueror doesn't show any feats of arms in there. And why on earth should he? He is the king. The king does not fight. He lets other people fight for him.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Training alongside Visenya and Orys would have given Aegon at least adequate skill with a blade, especially if his siblings were superior in their technique - Iron Sharpens Iron, after all, so what does Valyrian steel do?

I'm pretty sure Aegon wasn't that bad a fighter. The question is whether he was exceptional. And we have no proof for that. Usually those exceptional fighters also do exceptional feats of arms - which Aegon clearly didn't do. For Rhaegar - who seems to have been similar to Aegon in temperament and character - we can say he was a good tourney knight and stood his ground against Robert in battle, dealing him a wound before he was killed. He wasn't that bad. For Aegon we have no such evidence.

And one should assume that the Conqueror's feats of arms would be blown out of proportions and praised in song and tale if there was anything to praise. But there is apparently nothing of that sort.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The tall and athletically built Daemon Blackfyre, a regular on "greatest hardmen lists", was noted to bare striking resemblance to Aegon The Dragon, indicating the Conqueror would himself have resembled "a god". This does not mean he would have had any level of combat craftsmanship, but it at least points to Aegon having impressive genetics, the kind which often make for a difficult opponent, regardless of technical skill. If someone with such genetics can then master the technical aspects of their martial art then they tend to become gifted fighters.sur

That is problematic since none of the people hailing Daemon Blackfyre as 'the Conqueror reborn' ever saw Aegon the Dragon in the flesh. I'd actually assume that Daemon Blackfyre looked even more impressive - and certainly was a better warrior - than his famous ancestor. Aegon wasn't knighted at twelve, after all. Daemon looks more like the kind of freak Maegor was, without his sadistic tendencies. And Maegor the Cruel certainly was the best warrior of his generation, just as Maelys the Monstrous and Daemon Blackfyre were likely the best warriors of their generations.

And yes - with Aegon we have to keep in mind that even if he was as well-built as history says he was doesn't mean he was a very capable fighter. He could have been clumsy, etc. We don't know. And the fact that he didn't ride in tourneys or fought in any melees throughout his reign strongly indicates that whatever skills he might have had before and during the Conquest would have eroded rather quickly. The Conqueror in his mid-thirties would have been as far removed from the man who conquered the Seven Kingdoms as the fat drunkard Robert Baratheon was from the man who slew Rhaegar at the Trident - although in Aegon's case gluttony and drink wouldn't have anything to do with that, of course. Rather the day-to-day stress of ruling and the royal progresses. A king like Aegon most certainly couldn't afford spending his waking hours in the practice yard.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

As a man who weighted his actions and liked to plan, check out his kooky table for proof,  I can't see any reason why The Dragon would have neglected his swordsmanship. He planned on conquering Westeros, and must have known that his beloved Balerion might not always be there. His only friend was said to be Orys, who was a noted warrior, one would think the brothers would do as brothers tend to do and help each other improve/try to one up each other.

When they were all still on Dragonstone Aegon might have put more effort into his training. But he would have known that his own personal skills at arms were irrelevant in this whole war. The dragons would win this war, the dragons and his ability as a politician. Aegon didn't personally fight on horseback or in the mud in this war - nor the First Dornish War. He fought on dragonback.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

That being said, one on one combat was rightfully beneath the King. The man rode the biggest dragon in the world, he had helped crush the might of Volantis by the time he was 26 - and if you want to get real technical, through this victory he could claim rule of old Valyria by rights of conquest. He helped defeat Volantis, who hailed themselves heirs to the freehold and were attempting a takeover of their own. He would certainly have a better claim than the rulers of Pentos, Lys or Tyrosh, due to his dragons, family tree and eventual conquest of such a large country.

Volantis was pushed back but not crushed. Aegon didn't take the city, nor did he conquer any Volantene land. All he did was burning a Volantene fleet at Lys.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

One aspect of The Dragon I feel is often overlooked by the fandom is Aegon's Garden. One would think the garden would be named for Rhaenys, due to her love of song and beauty, but it's her brother who gets the nod. This to me points at Aegon being a deep thinker, with perhaps even a strong, if warped, appreciation for life. 

I guess that's just tradition. Aegon was the man, so pretty much everything on Dragonstone connected to the Dragon would be ascribed to him rather than his sisters. And for all we know Aegon could have been the one who commanded that this garden be made. He really liked his Dragonstone, much more so than King's Landing. I'm pretty sure Visenya didn't give shit about flowers.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

How about Aemond One-Eye? He seemed to enjoy the practice yard, was close with the masterful Criston Cole, and had the confidence and thirst for battle often associated with his uncle Daemon.

I've listed the guy among the good but not legendary Targaryen fighters. He died young and he had only one eye (and no magical abilities to compensate for that). He clearly isn't in the same league as Maegor, Daemon, Aemon, Daemon Blackfyre, or Maelys the Monstrous. But he could have grown into an even better fighter had he not died so soon.

7 hours ago, Nihlus said:

That's stupid. She's his sister and queen, of course no one is going to expect her to randomly pull out a blade and try to cut him. It doesn't indicate she has any skill at arms.

We do know that she had skills at arms. Or didn't you read the books?

7 hours ago, Nihlus said:

If we're talking about who would win in a fight, then yes we are. If they both have access to high quality armor, which they do, then the fight will devolve into grappling.

Not if you can avoid that. And we never talked about who can win in a fight. Anyone can win in a fight if the circumstances are right. That is also part of the point of this series.

7 hours ago, Nihlus said:

Yes it does; every knight or lord expected to lead an army into combat has similar martial training, enough that the differences between their skills are pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things. They all train with the best martial tutors every day of their lives since they can walk. The true differences separating the best from the rest? Physicality. Gregor, Sandor, Jaime, Garlan, Barristan, Arthur, Brienne... all warriors noted for being particularly tall and muscular/strong. 

The point I was making is that brute strength doesn't make you a good fighter with medieval weapons. It is a necessary prerequisite that you be not weak to be a good fighter, of course - which already proves that Visenya was muscled enough to stand her ground against her male peers in the practice yard or else she would have been laughed out of there (although Valyrian steel is a cheat there, considering that it is light enough that it could be handled by feeble old men and small children) - but not the only prerequisite. If you are clumsy, have poor eyesight, poor coordination, are afraid of pain and blood, and simply do not want to get hurt or hurt or kill other people you can have as much brute strength as you want, you would still be quickly killed by a trained and experienced killer half your strength.

And we have hints that the Conqueror like bloodshed considering that he didn't ride in tourneys or fought in melees. The really great Targaryen warriors all did that - and doing that was part of what made them as good as they were. 

7 hours ago, Nihlus said:

Oberyn was a fucking superhuman and don't let anyone tell you differently. He was quite possibly the second strongest man in the world. Because of off-screen dabbling with magic or because Martin is a bad writer, I do not know, but that is what is depicted. That scene where he rams his spear through Gregor's thrice-thick plate armor, through his bulky body, through two mail shirts and two layers of boiled leather, and then through another thrice-thick layer of plate armor, and then into the stone floor with enough force to pin Gregor to the floor and embed the spear into the ground? While pole vaulting in full mail? Not possible without incredible inhuman strength.

Oberyn wasn't all that well-built, though, or was he? If he can do that I see no reason why Visenya could not the same trick, no?

7 hours ago, Nihlus said:

Despite this though, plus Oberyn using a spear and staying out of Gregor's reach (Visenya doesn't use a spear, she uses a sword), plus Oberyn using human shields, plus Oberyn getting another spear after Gregor broke his first one, plus Oberyn's use of a poison which is supposed to instantly cripple whoever it hits immediately (per Tyene) but "merely" weakened Gregor enough for Oberyn to have a chance here, the fight still ended with Gregor victorious.

Visenya's preferred weapon was Dark Sister, but she certainly would have been trained at all arms, right? Just as Oberyn most likely knew how to use a sword...

7 hours ago, Nihlus said:

The latter was a fifty-something year old man using inefficient ceremonial weaponry who had a statue fall on him. Even without the statue being a factor I highly doubt Bronn was less fit than him.

Your beliefs are irrelevant. The point is that Visenya certainly could have pulled off a similar stand as Bronn did - with Aegon or anyone charging at her in full armor while she was lightly armored and wielding Valyrian steel.

7 hours ago, Nihlus said:

Well sure, but that's not really relevant to which one is the better fighter. If Aegon actually wanted to he could easily kill Visenya. Barring extraordinary evidence of her prowess, any knight would be able to do so, as they'd all have similar upbringing to Visenya (training to fight since they could walk) on top of far superior physicality and very likely more combat experience.

LOL, in Westeros the average knight has little to no combat experience (since there are not that many wars to be fought) and Visenya's peers wouldn't have seen more combat than she did.

7 hours ago, Nihlus said:

Randomly assuming a character uses magic to aid them in combat when they're never shown to do so is what's foolish.

Randomly asserting stuff about a character you don't seem to know all that much doesn't make any sense, either. It isn't even established that Visenya would need magical assistance to dispatch most men considering that she wields Valyrian steel. That cuts through normal steel like butter, enabling you deal a killing blow through the weak spots much sooner than if you were fighting with mundane steel.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

We know Aegon the Conqueror trained from childhood, as did Visenya, and that both were "true warriors" (unlike Rhaenys). This doesn't necessarily mean they were fantastic fighters, however. Either could have been no better than Ned, who George describes as capable but not great. Being trained from childhood isn't going to guarantee you're a great anything, especially in a world where all your peers are also being trained from childhood; look at the massive ranks of young athletes who don't get anywhere near professional levels because they just lack that "something" -- usually some mixture of physical and mental capabilities, depending on the sport -- that would put them in the top .1% who could make a living in their chosen area of expertise.

That's all the evidence we have. Everything else is speculative.

Ah, well, that makes sense.

I'd still say that the hints we are getting show that Visenya took more joy out of fighting and killing than Aegon did, and that she had more of a killer instinct than her brother. He even gave in to Nymor's letter which Visenya (and Orys) most likely would have never done, showing very well who was 'the true steel' there.

If you want a Targaryen sibling of the big three to go out there to make a kill you'd want to send Visenya, not Aegon.

[Leo of House Cartel]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Rather the day-to-day stress of ruling and the royal progresses. A king like Aegon most certainly couldn't afford spending his waking hours in the practice yard..

Probably the most prudent way of looking at things. He likely would have been a skilled swordsman, but control over the blade would have been the least of the man's concerns. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

And one should assume that the Conqueror's feats of arms would be blown out of proportions and praised in song and tale if there was anything to praise. But there is apparently nothing of that sort.

As much of an enigma in his time as in ours...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

TSotD doesn't. It describes to us how good Aenys and Maegor are at arms, and gives us a list of Maegor's accomplishments in tourney and war, but the Conqueror doesn't show any feats of arms in there. 

I assumed that the October release of The Book of Swords would have more material than the stuff that's already online.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The Conqueror in his mid-thirties would have been as far removed from the man who conquered the Seven Kingdoms as the fat drunkard Robert Baratheon was from the man who slew Rhaegar at the Trident - although in Aegon's case gluttony and drink wouldn't have anything to do with that, of course. Rather the day-to-day stress of ruling and the royal progresses. A king like Aegon most certainly couldn't afford spending his waking hours in the practice yard.

Imagine a parlay between the two in their later years..

And yes, The Conqueror's skill at arms would have no doubt gone to rust over the years. Single combat should really mean nothing to a good "shield of his people" - and Aegon certainly seemed like one of the better Targaryen Kings.

No doubt Jaehaerys I was also capable of getting busy when he was younger, but the responsibility of caring for the realm would have been more important than vainglorious pride in one's fighting prowess.

Plus, I imagine Aegon wouldn't have been all that impressed by his own feats of arms - he rode Balerion, just imagine the rush of adrenaline The Conqueror felt during a battle or a simple flight.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Volantis was pushed back but not crushed. Aegon didn't take the city, nor did he conquer any Volantene land. All he did was burning a Volantene fleet at Lys.

"Crushed" may have certainly been a bit much, but from the perspective of the 25 year old Conqueror, wouldn't the burning of the fleet be pretty symbolic? 

(This is utter speculation btw, so take from it what you will)

The Old Blood behind the Black Walls had no dragons yet claimed to be the heirs to the freehold and sought to takeover as Valyria once did. Aegon turned up and behaved like one of the "40 families" of old, bathing his foes in Balerions fire - why wouldn't Aegon The Conqueror view such an action as defining him as the most Valyrian of all the remaining Valyrians? - a real Dragon amongst mere penny pushers. And if that's the case then yeah, I would view him as the rightful ruler of the Freehold, as much of a mere technicality as it would have been anyway, why wouldn't he? 

I have a few ideas concerning Aegon's interactions with Volantis and the other players during the Century of Blood, but that's for another time and place.

 

[Ellenandrew]

Aegon had a good military education and was, most likely, a very good fighter but I believe that his skills became somewhat exaggerated after his death. He became a legend for what he achieved so people most likely embellished his deeds a bit to make him look like "the Warrior himself". His strong points were definitely strategy and commanding respect through the way he carried himself and spoke. 

I agree with other posters that Visenya and Orys were better. Visenya was ruthless and quick (I think of her like Arya and Brienne mixed into a Valyrian looking woman), while Orys was the brute force. I think Aerion Targaryen educated all his children the same way and they all had their strengths and weaknesses. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Probably the most prudent way of looking at things. He likely would have been a skilled swordsman, but control over the blade would have been the least of the man's concerns.

Basically, yes. Especially since we know he didn't partake in those chivalric arts in peacetimes. If he did that - or liked to do that - he would have had a reason to continue practicing - to stay in the game. But the way things were he had no reason to do that.

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I assumed that the October release of The Book of Swords would have more material than the stuff that's already online.

We'll get more details on the childhood, youth, and adulthood of Aenys and Maegor during the Conqueror's reign - and Aegon and Visenya feature very prominently in there - but there are no accounts about Aegon doing any grand feats of arms. The focus of the story is on Aegon's sons, not Aegon himself. And the First Dornish War and other crucial details of Aegon's reign are not discussed there. There are some details on his later life and death, though.

Ran has told us that there is another text on the reign of the Conqueror from which the TWoIaF section on Aegon and the account of the First Dornish War are drawn.

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

No doubt Jaehaerys I was also capable of getting busy when he was younger, but the responsibility of caring for the realm would have been more important than vainglorious pride in one's fighting prowess.

Yandel claims Jaehaerys I was great in the fighting department, too. There could be some exaggeration there, too. He certainly didn't have the personality of being a killer, and one expects him to be the Targaryen king who executed the fewest people despite his fifty-five year reign.

The fact that he rose to the throne at the age of fourteen makes it not very likely he had all that much time to train to become one of the greatest fighters of his age. The only way I could see him excelling in the lists and in melees is if his mother Alyssa and stepfather effectively ran his government until Septon Barth became Hand - and if he really liked doing the chivalric stuff in his teens and early twenties. But somehow I doubt that stuff like that could capture his mind and interests very long.

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Plus, I imagine Aegon wouldn't have been all that impressed by his own feats of arms - he rode Balerion, just imagine the rush of adrenaline The Conqueror felt during a battle or a simple flight.

Sure, but even here Aegon is a mystery in the sense that he didn't even like riding Balerion all that much. He rode him in battle and to get quickly from one place to another - he would have been his number one means to move from KL to his beloved Dragonstone. It was Rhaenys who really liked riding her dragon.

I think George really dropped the ball there with the fascination of dragonriding. There should have been a Targaryen dragonrider who explored the known world on dragonback, and another (or the same person) who took his or her dragon across the Sunset Sea, never to return. There is talk that Rhaenys dreamed of doing that but one of her descendants should have actually done that. A little brother of Aenys and Maegor. Or one of Jaehaerys I's many children.

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

"Crushed" may have certainly been a bit much, but from the perspective of the 25 year old Conqueror, wouldn't the burning of the fleet be pretty symbolic? 

(This is utter speculation btw, so take from it what you will)

The Old Blood behind the Black Walls had no dragons yet claimed to be the heirs to the freehold and sought to takeover as Valyria once did. Aegon turned up and behaved like one of the "40 families" of old, bathing his foes in Balerions fire - why wouldn't Aegon The Conqueror view such an action as defining him as the most Valyrian of all the remaining Valyrians? - a real Dragon amongst mere penny pushers. And if that's the case then yeah, I would view him as the rightful ruler of the Freehold, as much of a mere technicality as it would have been anyway, why wouldn't he? 

I have a few ideas concerning Aegon's interactions with Volantis and the other players during the Century of Blood, but that's for another time and place.

Considering that Aegon actually allied with the factions - Pentos, Lys, Myr, and Tyrosh - fighting against Volantis he wouldn't have seen himself as the ruler of a new Valyrian empire but rather as a freedom fighter opposing Volantene tyranny and oppression. At the end of the day he most likely involved himself on that struggle to break Volantene power and prevent them from attacking/seizing Dragonstone and Driftmark should his war in Westeros go wrong. And to prevent the Storm King and the other Westerosi kings (the Gardeners and the Yellow Toad) from bringing the Volantene fleets into the war on their side.

The Free Cities Aegon helped to free from the Volantene yoke most likely were duly thankful and/or even helped him finance his Wars of Conquest.

If there were any Targaryen dreaming to rebuild the Valyrian empire it would have been Aegon's ancestors on Dragonstone. Gaemon the Glorious and his son Aegon might have been involved in things like that. I'm pretty sure they - and some of their successors - played a (small) part in the Century of Blood. It wouldn't surprise me if the Targaryens conquered lands in Essos in those days, challenging the rulers of the various Free Cities. There might also have been wars for the control of Tarth and Estermont in those days.

[Aegon1FanBoy]

He must have been badass so many describe him as one of the greats of his time mind you he wasn't shown to beat anyone of note, but even ser arthur dayne is only known to have put down one adversary and he is seen as legendary. So that tells us aegon much like arthur did many great martial feats that we don't know about. 

[Ran]

Jaime never killed anyone of note in battle, and yet we believe him to be one of the great knights and swordsmen in the history of Westeros. Why? Because contemporaries attest to this. Contemporaries attest to Ser Arthur Dayne's skill, and to Baristan's as well.

No contemporaries attest to Aegon the Conqueror being a great fighter. There's simply no evidence for his being one of the"greats if all time". Viserys's comparison of Drogo to Aegon is the closest you can get, and he's talking about winning battles on that occasion.

This is getting as silly as the insistence that Ned just have been a great fighter despite all evidence to the contrary. George it's not so simplistic as to insist that great men and women in Westeros must all be great warriors. In fact, he went out of his way to show that they are not.

[Leo of House Cartel]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We'll get more details on the childhood, youth, and adulthood of Aenys and Maegor during the Conqueror's reign - and Aegon and Visenya feature very prominently in there - but there are no accounts about Aegon doing any grand feats of arms. The focus of the story is on Aegon's sons, not Aegon himself. And the First Dornish War and other crucial details of Aegon's reign are not discussed there. There are some details on his later life and death, though.

Thanks dude, you had me worried for a moment. I assume the Aegon text Ran was alluding to will be published in Fire and Blood?

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but even here Aegon is a mystery in the sense that he didn't even like riding Balerion all that much. He rode him in battle and to get quickly from one place to another - he would have been his number one means to move from KL to his beloved Dragonstone. It was Rhaenys who really liked riding her dragon.

That particular tidbit always interested me. 

Perhaps Aegon's apparent lack of flights of fun some kind of strange mutual respect/understanding between the Conqueror and Balerion? Or merely another example of Aegon only using what's needed when it's needed?

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think George really dropped the ball there with the fascination of dragonriding. There should have been a Targaryen dragonrider who explored the known world on dragonback, and another (or the same person) who took his or her dragon across the Sunset Sea, never to return. There is talk that Rhaenys dreamed of doing that but one of her descendants should have actually done that. A little brother of Aenys and Maegor. Or one of Jaehaerys I's many children.

Always enjoyed reading about Rhaenys, Rhaenyra Targaryen and Laena Velaryon's obsessions with flight. Bunch of Dragon Geeks!

Would definately love to read more about Targaryens exploring Planetos, one would think the thirst for adventure would be too much for some teenaged Blood of The Dragon types.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Aegon actually allied with the factions - Pentos, Lys, Myr, and Tyrosh - fighting against Volantis he wouldn't have seen himself as the ruler of a new Valyrian empire but rather as a freedom fighter opposing Volantene tyranny and oppression. At the end of the day he most likely involved himself on that struggle to break Volantene power and prevent them from attacking/seizing Dragonstone and Driftmark should his war in Westeros go wrong. And to prevent the Storm King and the other Westerosi kings (the Gardeners and the Yellow Toad) from bringing the Volantene fleets into the war on their side.

The Free Cities Aegon helped to free from the Volantene yoke most likely were duly thankful and/or even helped him finance his Wars of Conquest.

If there were any Targaryen dreaming to rebuild the Valyrian empire it would have been Aegon's ancestors on Dragonstone. Gaemon the Glorious and his son Aegon might have been involved in things like that. I'm pretty sure they - and some of their successors - played a (small) part in the Century of Blood. It wouldn't surprise me if the Targaryens conquered lands in Essos in those days, challenging the rulers of the various Free Cities. There might also have been wars for the control of Tarth and Estermont in those days.

I pretty much agree with you Varys, but the wording of the following quote raises an eyebrow..

"Still, when Pentos and Tyrosh approached him, inviting him to join a grand aliance against Volantis, he listened. And for reasons unknown to this day, he chose to heed their call...to a point."

 

 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

.No contemporaries attest to Aegon the Conqueror being a great fighter. There's simply no evidence for his being one of the"greats if all time". Viserys's comparison of Drogo to Aegon is the closest you can get, and he's talking about winning battles on that occasion.

Even that one isn't all that convincing. If I told you my ancestor living 300 years ago was a great fighter you would need more evidence than just my word. And as you say we don't have historical evidence indicating that the Conqueror was a great fighter.

7 hours ago, Ran said:

This is getting as silly as the insistence that Ned just have been a great fighter despite all evidence to the contrary. George it's not so simplistic as to insist that great men and women in Westeros must all be great warriors. In fact, he went out of his way to show that they are not.

In fact, it seems George went out of his way to tear especially Aegon down to earth. Visenya founded the Kingsguard, Rhaenys arranged those marriages between the great families, came up with the Rule of Six, and ensured that the Ironborn no longer raid the coasts of Westeros. Rhaenys was also the one who ensured that songs and stories would portray the Targaryens favorably, and she seems to have really won the love of the common people as the Sept of Remembrance indicates. If the stories about Aegon being wont to stay in common inns and the like during his many progresses are true, then he most likely was able to win the love of his people. The fact that KL grew as quickly as it did is also a testament that the Targaryens were very popular among the commoners.

But Aegon and his sisters failed at crucial points. The issues with the Faith were not resolved, the laws of the Realm were not unified, Dorne remained unconquered, and there were growing tensions within the royal family.

39 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Thanks dude, you had me worried for a moment. I assume the Aegon text Ran was alluding to will be published in Fire and Blood?

That seems to be the plan, yes. I guess the whole tidbit about the Defenestration of Sunspear from the sidebar on the First Dornish War - which is attributed to Archmaester Gyldayn - is a direct quote from that particular text. Not to mention the details on Rhaenys' fall at Hellholt.

39 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

That particular tidbit always interested me. 

Perhaps Aegon's apparent lack of flights of fun some kind of strange mutual respect/understanding between the Conqueror and Balerion? Or merely another example of Aegon only using what's needed when it's needed?

Really no idea. Aegon seems to have been somewhat of a loner, perhaps the Targaryen most like Rhaegar but lacking Rhaegar's melancholic nature.

39 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Always enjoyed reading about Rhaenys, Rhaenyra Targaryen and Laena Velaryon's obsessions with flight. Bunch of Dragon Geeks!

Would definately love to read more about Targaryens exploring Planetos, one would think the thirst for adventure would be too much for some teenaged Blood of The Dragon types.

Well, George had this explorer type with Corlys Velaryon. One really wonders why no dragonrider said 'Well, what our Velaryon cousin can do with a stupid ship in two decades I can do with my dragon in a year or two.' 

And, of course, there would have been the possibilities of these people meeting tragic ends far from home, etc. Or even settling down somewhere and disappearing from history.

39 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I pretty much agree with you Varys, but the wording of the following quote raises an eyebrow..

"Still, when Pentos and Tyrosh approached him, inviting him to join a grand aliance against Volantis, he listened. And for reasons unknown to this day, he chose to heed their call...to a point."

I'd interpret this as Pentos and Tyrosh wanting Aegon's help to destroy Volantis completely - which he didn't give them. He just helped them crush their armies and win their freedom. Volantis lost the war but they weren't broken completely - what led to their change of politics was the infighting and the rise of the elephants. One assume that - if the tigers had stayed in control - Volantis would have continued its politics of military aggression in the continuing centuries - which they didn't do under the elephants.

[The Grey Wolf]

In the Conquest section of TWOIAF Aegon is said to  have been "counted amongst the greatest warriors of his age".

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

9 hours ago, Ran said:

Jaime never killed anyone of note in battle, and yet we believe him to be one of the great knights and swordsmen in the history of Westeros. Why? Because contemporaries attest to this. Contemporaries attest to Ser Arthur Dayne's skill, and to Baristan's as well.

No contemporaries attest to Aegon the Conqueror being a great fighter. There's simply no evidence for his being one of the"greats if all time". Viserys's comparison of Drogo to Aegon is the closest you can get, and he's talking about winning battles on that occasion.

This is getting as silly as the insistence that Ned just have been a great fighter despite all evidence to the contrary. George it's not so simplistic as to insist that great men and women in Westeros must all be great warriors. In fact, he went out of his way to show that they are not.

If we had a story set around the time of Aegon, maybe we would get contemporaries attesting to how good Aegon was. Like we get with Jaime, Dayne and Barristan. Trying to guess how good of a warrior a person was 300 years ago is hard and adding in the fact that Aegon never rode in a tourney or never killed anyone of note, makes it almost impossible.  The World book does say twice that Aegon was a warrior without peer and that he was counted amongst the greatest warriors of his age. Those two mentions in the World  book are probably why people on here think Aegon was a great warrior.

[Ran]

Those remarks are much along the lines of Edward the Black Prince being called the greatest knight of his age by contemporaries: "You're an important royal figure, you can fight, you've got a magic sword, you must therefore be one of the greatest warriors of them all because flattery will get me everywhere."

Aegon has no noteworthy personal feats of arms, however, and in generally we know the feats of the great Targaryen warriors when they have them. His willingness to fight personally can't be questioned, but then competent Ned was also willing to fight personally. Killing a fool and a minor ironborn lord who is not noted as having any particular prowess isn't much to go on, given his lack of involvement in tourneys and melees or indeed in any other personal combat that we know of (besides surviving the Dornish assassins, to be sure).  

And it's worth remembering that other figures like Maegor, Aemon the Dragonknight, and so on, do get examples providing evidence to the claims they were truly great knights. How can a warrior who doesn't fight be counted great? Well, because it tells you a lot more about the attitudes around them at the time.