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Why we just have 4 houses at the dragon's pit meeting?


Ser Loras The Gay

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10 hours ago, Zapho said:

Walder Frey had tons of sons, grandsons and great-grandsons. I don't think Arya got them all. It's probably still held by the Freys though I'd suspect that some other houses are starting to see a chance of becoming the top house in the Riverlands themselves. There could be civil war there right now.

I'm pretty sure that in the Inside the Episode, they said that Arya got all of the paternal heirs. But that should means there are still dozens of maternal heirs out there.

The wiki says it's all of his male family members, not just the paternal ones, so I may be wrong. But even then, he's got tons of daughters, granddaughters, and great-granddaughters, so, even without the maternal grandsons and great-grandsons, there are more than enough people left.

Either way, I'm sure they're all jockeying for position, making alliances with each other and trying to curry favor with other Riverlands houses, each with the help of whichever house the original Frey daughter married into. And, of course, being on the maternal line, they've each got the family they married into for support. Eventually, one of them will be strong enough to declare himself the new Lord Frey, or Lord Brax (or whatever) of the Twins if he prefers. Either way, Cersei will probably just accept that without comment.

Until then, I'm guessing they're just leaving Walder's widow Kitty in charge. She's harmless and powerless, and not worth ousting until you're ready to take over permanently—unless maybe someone without enough power to stake a claim for herself is able to get too much power over Kitty.

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On 9/14/2017 at 9:12 AM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I really don't understand why we have just 4 houses at that meeting. Let's count how many kingdoms they left behind.

We have Daenerys Targaryen who was representing no kingdom at all (since she didn't conquer any of them, and both the sand snakes(dorne) and Oleanna Tyrell(reach) died before the meeting)

We have Jon snow and Brienne representing the North

We have the Euron Greyjoy representing the iron islands

We have Cersei and Jaime Lannister representing the Westernlands

So, we have 2 kingdoms and a rebelous island being directly represented. We are missing a representative from, Vale, Dorne, Riverlands, Reach and Stormlands. At no time it's either implied or explained that Cersei is representing all of the kingdoms cited above and we have for sure a Lord ruling the Vale and a hostage (Edmure tully) that could represent Riverland, but the show since season 6 pretend they don't exist anymore. We don't have any clue for who is trying to get control of Dorne, Reach and the Stormlands. The show should explain at least why Edmure and Robert Arryn weren't present, even if we are going with the argument "but Edmure is a hostage he doesn't have the power to negotiate", Robert has and should use the power he has as Protector of the Vale (now that Littlefinger is dead) if we are going with the argument "but the Vale's forces are within Winterfell, so they're allies with the Starks, therefore Jon is speaking on his behalf" they could simply stated at the start of the meeting who was representing who. They never bothered showing other kingdoms or even talking about them, it's like they don't even exist anymore. Every single fighter from the vale is in Winterfell (we really don't know why they're there so long since the Vale needs men), Dorne after the sand snakes were killed don't exist anymore, the Stormlands after the death of Renly was never brought up again, the reach has no ruler now and the Riverlands don't have any Freys left so they act like it doesn't exist either. I really wanted to understand why the show keeps reducing Westeros to: Starks, Lannisters and Targaryens like they're the only thing that not just matters but like they're the only houses that exists anymore.

This was basically a meeting between the crown and the 'rebels'.  The rebels wanted to get the crown to agree to a temporary truce and fight the the AoD. Those houses that were strong/stable enough sent their representatives. The opinions of the other houses didn't matter in this negotiation.

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9 hours ago, falcotron said:

I'm pretty sure that in the Inside the Episode, they said that Arya got all of the paternal heirs. But that should means there are still dozens of maternal heirs out there.

I just rewatched it and they said that she got all the Freys that were involved with the Red Wedding. It's probably not that important who exactly was left. She got the important ones. 

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None of the other houses needed to be there. Jon and Dany were trying to negotiate a ceasefire with Cersei so that they could go North and deal with the WW without Cersei's army taking everything after they'd gone - what does that have to do with the Tullys or the Reach, or anyone else except Cersei (and her allies) and Dany (and her allies) all of whom were represented?

People find the weirdest things to get annoyed over.

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12 hours ago, Zapho said:

I just rewatched it and they said that she got all the Freys that were involved with the Red Wedding. It's probably not that important who exactly was left. She got the important ones. 

Thanks for checking. So I was right that the wiki is wrong, but wrong about what was actually said. :)

Anyway, you're right, that probably isn't important. It's a little different, but it still means all of the obvious contenders are dead, so it's a wide-open struggle that I wouldn't expect to be resolved easily or quickly without Cersei's intervention (which is unlikely to come).

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1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

None of the other houses needed to be there. Jon and Dany were trying to negotiate a ceasefire with Cersei so that they could go North and deal with the WW without Cersei's army taking everything after they'd gone - what does that have to do with the Tullys or the Reach, or anyone else except Cersei (and her allies) and Dany (and her allies) all of whom were represented?

People find the weirdest things to get annoyed over.

Why would a very, very powerful invader who offed a good portion of her enemy's army in minutes and must unite Westeros against a zombie apocalypse negotiate a ceasefire with an enemy who is

1. notoriously unreliable and cruel, possibly insane

2. very weak

3. unable to bring alliances with her

What am I missing? Dany and Jon need to spread the news that the apocalypse is nigh to all of Westeros, yet they spend the entire season trying to win over this one evil, backstabbing person, who would go down in five minutes if Dany took the time to fly to King's Landing. I think Dany could leave in the afternoon and be back for dinner, and most of that would be flight time.

...and I say this as someone who can't stand Dany, and adores Cersei. May Cersei rule. The character is entertaining and complicated, and Headey is excellent.  

 

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10 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Dany (and her allies)

Precisely. Are we supposed to believe that all the Houses of the Reach were destroyed by the Lannister/Tarly alliance?

Did the Unsullied came (by foot!) from Casterly Rock to KL without encountering any of the Westerlands and Reach Lords? They just waved "hello" by passing near the castles? :P

Then no, it's not "important", it's one more step away from the “medieval” context exposed during the early seasons…

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11 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

^Because that's what the show told us was happening. Is the script wrong?

In this case, I felt that the script contradicted itself, as it also underlined that Cersei was weak, isolated, and unreliable, a horrible ally and a horrible person keep on the throne while the country is facing a zombie apocalypse. Giving over the entire season to winning over Cersei, specifically, was an especially weird decision, given that the script also underlined how powerful Dany was, hence how unnecessary this kind of thing was. I mean...that whole "travel North, risk your life, capture zombie, return south, risk dragons, waste months," was all for Cersei. WHY??? What about the Citadel? What about everyone else?

I love this show, and I don't "rant rave" against it, usually. This season, however, didn't work for me.

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So the plan was only to convince the mad queen cersei but not all the other lords of the realm? Tell me again how that makes any sense. If they had the meeting with every single lord they could then pressure Cersei to accept the plan, since more people would be willing to help fight the others, but when you leave the decision to just one, crazy, person your plan is going to fail.

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10 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Did the Unsullied came (by foot!) from Casterly Rock to KL without encountering any of the Westerlands and Reach Lords?

We know an army can march from KL to Casterly Rock to Highgarden back to KL in only a fortnight, with time to empty out one castle and besiege and loot another, and escorting a loot train for the last leg of the journey.

And yet, the Unsullied took at least 6 weeks to get from CR to KL.

Presumably that's precisely because they were marching through enemy territory, and had to avoid castles and deal with local forces harrying them along the way.

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3 hours ago, falcotron said:

We know an army can march from KL to Casterly Rock to Highgarden back to KL in only a fortnight, with time to empty out one castle and besiege and loot another, and escorting a loot train for the last leg of the journey.

And yet, the Unsullied took at least 6 weeks to get from CR to KL.

Presumably that's precisely because they were marching through enemy territory, and had to avoid castles and deal with local forces harrying them along the way.

but that is an assumption that you the viewer have to make in order to explain why the Unsullied took as long as they did to make it to Kingslanding. personally I just thought they marched through the Westerlands and into the Riverlands then down into Kingslanding, at their leisure because there is no one to harry them, as almost all fighting men have already been used and most importantly...Winter is here and people need to get the last harvest in asap. As long as the Unsullied do not harass the natives there is no reason for the natives to harass the Unsullied. 

and we have to assume all these things because there are no shots of the Unsullied journey across Westeros throughout the season. We see last see Greyworm looking out at the fleet burning under Euron's attack from the Casterly Rock Ramparts in episode 3 and then bam, the Unsullied are in formation outside of Kingslanding in episode 7. Don't forget that the way they setup the end of that episode seemed as if the Unsullied were in an untenable situation and were doomed as they were cutoff from their allies on the other side of the continent, Instead I guess we needn't have worried as the Unsullied seem to be fine and dandy in episode 7. 
 

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8 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

but that is an assumption that you the viewer have to make in order to explain why the Unsullied took as long as they did to make it to Kingslanding

Don't forget that the way they setup the end of that episode seemed as if the Unsullied were in an untenable situation and were doomed as they were cutoff from their allies on the other side of the continent,

That setup is exactly why I'm making that assumption.

They were in a castle in enemy lands with no transport and a very small number of enemy troops nearby. That doesn't spell doomed, that spells harried on your way through enemy territory. The Unsullied are a disciplined and fanatical force, and I wouldn't expect too many losses with most of the Lannister army away (and then destroyed), but it wouldn't be a pleasant journey. Remember, they can't just avoid all settlements—for one thing, they need something to eat for those six weeks, and for another, they need to pass through or go the long way around a mountain range at some point.

Since that explains why they went so much slower than Jaime's army, that's another reason to believe that's probably what happened.

Sure, you can ignore that setup and assume they had a free ride the whole way, but you can't then turn around and ask how the Unsullied could have had a free ride given that setup.

Or you can assume that the most likely result of what you've seen is what actually happened, as long as there's nothing to contradict it.

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1 hour ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

Why wasn't the Lord Commander of the night's watch invited by Jon to testify about The Fist of The First Men and Hardome?

Because having the active Lord Commander AND a former Lord Commander at the same place at the same time is theorically impossible…

Imagine Cersei or Qyburn ask: btw, King Snow, last time I heard of you, YOU were the LC of the NW… WTF?

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What we had was a general lack of common sense at the Dragon Pit Meeting. The Set up and reason for it, the location of it, the execution and the outcome. Most of the Season was set up for it and it was Dumb. Who would ever believe /trust Cersei? Everyone on this show knows that she is unreasonable, ruthless, delusional, extremely narcissistic and self entitled. This was a one big giant folly of a season meant to weaken Dany, empower Cersei and give the Night King a Dragon.

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7 hours ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

Why wasn't the Lord Commander of the night's watch invited by Jon to testify about The Fist of The First Men and Hardome? Since you know it's their job to hold the line against the Others and Wights?

The viewer's guide for this season listed Edd as the "acting commander", which means they presumably haven't elected a new LC.

Also, why take Edd off the Wall? That means he's not there to hold the line against the dead (and not there to keep the Wildlings and Watch working together)—which, as you say, is his job.

And meanwhile, what's he going to contribute? "Not convinced, Cersei? Allow me to introduce my good friend and former underling who you've never heard of before and have no more reason to trust than me. He has the exact same story as I do, but with a bit less firsthand detail, and a lot more dark humor."

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55 minutes ago, falcotron said:

The viewer's guide for this season listed Edd as the "acting commander", which means they presumably haven't elected a new LC.

Also, why take Edd off the Wall? That means he's not there to hold the line against the dead (and not there to keep the Wildlings and Watch working together)—which, as you say, is his job.

And meanwhile, what's he going to contribute? "Not convinced, Cersei? Allow me to introduce my good friend and former underling who you've never heard of before and have no more reason to trust than me. He has the exact same story as I do, but with a bit less firsthand detail, and a lot more dark humor."

Yeah, Edd and other members of the Nightswatch were not needed at the meeting. Truthfully though the meeting should not have been held at the dragonpit (which was small as hell, how did Balerion, Vhagar, and Meraxes plus the other dragons ever all fit in there?) but outside of Kingslanding. Why give Cersie home field advantage where she can possibly lay another trap to kill her enemies? 

Then, while i know they are trying to streamline things with the cast, story, and what not, there really should have been a few other lords there from other kingdoms as well as a few Archmaesters from the Citadel. Jona and company are literally facing a monstrously large legion of the undead, the Long Night come again, and he has proof that the legends and stories told of that event are real. the more lords who see this, the better the chance of recruiting for the defense of the realm. 

By only showing Cersie and her crew, he and Dany are ensuring that only a select few people know of the real danger and further allowing Cersie to control things. No way in hell are the other lords of Westeros going to continue having Cersie to remain queen if she is not defending the realms of men. 

The lack of other lords and the Archmaesters is another example of Dany and Jon especially actually using statescraft to garner allies. It is even worse when you realize that is something Tyrion and Varys should have put forward immediately. 

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3 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

the more lords who see this, the better the chance of recruiting for the defense of the realm.

What they really should have done is not kill the wight, but have someone take it on a roadshow. A few extra lords seeing it is one thing; marching it through every major city and town in the realms on the way to a meeting with the local minor lords and knights, they should be able to recruit the biggest army in Westerosi history that way.

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