Orell's eagle

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Orell's eagle attacked Jon and Ghost. Did it add something to overall story?

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Mostly to inform us about wargs 2nd life and how memories/feelings of animal 1st warg and 2nd warg all influence each other

"The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg.Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much hehates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes." Jon 10 swords

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Thinking about that if Bran wargs anything that a dead other has already 'broken' it should then whisper to him giving him greater insight into their world... scary

[ChuckPunch]

Very first hint at a life after death in an animal.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Mostly to inform us about wargs 2nd life and how memories/feelings of animal 1st warg and 2nd warg all influence each other

"The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg.Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much hehates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes." Jon 10 swords

 

1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Thinking about that if Bran wargs anything that a dead other has already 'broken' it should then whisper to him giving him greater insight into their world... scary

 

10 minutes ago, ChuckPunch said:

Very first hint at a life after death in an animal.

I understand. But Orell's eagle could attack only Jon to show it. Why did he attack Ghost too?

[ChuckPunch]

I'm pretty sure Wargs who don't suck (i.e. Jon) can sense other Wargs. Maybe Orell could sense that Jon was sort-of warging Ghost and just went at them both to cover his bases.

The explanation in story is that Orell hates Jon. The meta explanation is that it shows how dead Wargs live on in their animals. 

[Raisin' Bran]

1 minute ago, ChuckPunch said:

I'm pretty sure Wargs who don't suck (i.e. Jon) can sense other Wargs. Maybe Orell could sense that Jon was sort-of warging Ghost and just went at them both to cover his bases.

The explanation in story is that Orell hates Jon. The meta explanation is that it shows how dead Wargs live on in their animals. 

I assume by "suck" you mean that wargs who do not know what a warg is. If so, then for a while, Jon sucked too.

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 minutes ago, Grazdan zo Azer said:

I understand. But Orell's eagle could attack only Jon to show it. Why did he attack Ghost too?

Because Jon was reconnoitering the wilding host through Ghost. Here are some more questions...

This passage is read just before Jon sees the Wilding host in the Frostfangs through a wolf dream with Ghost...

Quote

Jon did not think sleep would come easily, but he knew the Halfhand was right. He found a place out of the wind, beneath an overhang of rock, and took off his cloak to use it for a blanket. "Ghost," he called. "Here. To me." He always slept better with the great white wolf beside him; there was comfort in the smell of him, and welcome warmth in that shaggy pale fur. This time, though, Ghost did no more than look at him. Then he turned away and padded around the garrons, and quick as that he was gone. He wants to hunt, Jon thought. Perhaps there were goats in these mountains. The shadowcats must live on something. "Just don't try and bring down a 'cat," he muttered. Even for a direwolf, that would be dangerous. He tugged his cloak over him and stretched out beneath the rock.

Jon VII, Clash

Did Bloodraven slip into Ghost here and lead him away from Jon and to the Wilding host?

Quote

When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon VII, Clash

I don't believe this passage shows that the Wall blocks warging since it's followed by Jon and Bran encountering each other while wolf dreaming and greenseeing, respectively. I think it shows that Jon and Ghost each miss and are worried about their siblings.

This passage is one of the trippiest in the whole series, right up there with the hooded man and the Bridge of Dream...

Quote

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood.

Jon VII, Clash

So,  Bran is talking to Jon through a weirwood while Jon is having a wolfdream with Ghost...

Quote

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky.

Jon VII, Clash

This is odd because the George had just indicated earlier in the chapter that they were above the tree line, and we know from the Arryns' attempts to have a godswood in the Eyrie that weirwoods don't grow above the tree line. 

Quote

Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brothers face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Jon VII, Clash

So, now we know that Bran is greenseeing after having his third eye opened by Bloodraven, and that the lines between Bran and the weirwoods and Summer have kind of blurred. The earth, stone, and death are a hint that Bran was not killed by Theon but is hiding down in the Winterfell crypts...

Quote

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark.

Jon VII, Clash

That compares interestingly with Bloodraven telling Bran to use the dark, and Qhorin telling Jon that shadows are friends to the Night's Watch.

Quote

No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

Jon VII, Clash

That was weird because nobody opened Arya's third eye. But this is really weird...

Quote

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.

Jon VII, Clash

Then, Jon sees the wilding host through Ghost's eyes before Orell's eagle attacks Ghost. So, was Ghost magically transported from one location to another? Was the weirwood above the tree line actually in Jon/Ghost's consciousness rather than a physical location?

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Jon VII, Clash

This is odd because the George had just indicated earlier in the chapter that they were above the tree line, and we know from the Arryns' attempts to have a godswood in the Eyrie that weirwoods don't grow above the tree line. 

 

Interesting. Nice catch!  There is actually no weirwood tree there at all.  Bran appears to Jon in that form.  Bran is tree-dreaming while Jon is wolf-dreaming and Bran can find Jon in his dream if Jon is experiencing a wolf-dream.  Go so far as to open Jon's third eye.  In Bran's dream, he sees Jon and then touches Ghost.  In Jon's dream Bran touches Ghost and then speaks to him.  A reverse order.  That's also strange.

This seems to be consistent with Orell recognizing Jon while they are both riding their familiars.  Also perhaps with Mel recognizing Varamyr in Orell's eagle.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

40 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This is odd because the George had just indicated earlier in the chapter that they were above the tree line, and we know from the Arryns' attempts to have a godswood in the Eyrie that weirwoods don't grow above the tree line. 

? High heart is well above the tree line and had neumorous weirwoods the soil was too thin at the Eyrie.

 

44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That was weird because nobody opened Arya's third eye. But this is really weird

It what way, Jon is no different after being touched by the tree, I would imagine Bran has also visited Arya in her wolf dream off page.

Bran has stronger abilities after waking from his fall, Arya after going blind, Jon probably after he dies

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

The eagle attacks Ghost because Ghost was scouting the wildlings. Later he attacks Jon because Jon killed Orell and Orell is inside the eagle and can remember/hate Jon.

 

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 Bran is talking to Jon through a weirwood while Jon is having a wolfdream with Ghost...

...

 So, was Ghost magically transported from one location to another?

Jon wasn't having a wolfdream when he sees Bran. He is having a normal dream that Bran enters, just as Bloodraven enters Bran's dreams. Bran opens Jon's 3rd eye and that's when Jon's first "wolfdream" begins.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Bran is tree-dreaming while Jon is wolf-dreaming and Bran can find Jon in his dream if Jon is experiencing a wolf-dream.  Go so far as to open Jon's third eye.  In Bran's dream, he sees Jon and then touches Ghost.  In Jon's dream Bran touches Ghost and then speaks to him.  A reverse order.  That's also strange.

Again, wrong. Jon is not wolfdreaming during their encounter, only afterwards.

The wolf that Jon is dreaming himself as is not Ghost, notice that it howls. Also the whole "teleportation" thing... Jon is simply dreaming of himself as a wolf (not Ghost), Bran enters that dream (not wolfdream) and opens Jon's 3rd eye. That allows Jon to finally have his first wolfdream - so he enters Ghost who is actually at a real physical location, causing the "teleportation".

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

34 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

? High heart is well above the tree line and had neumorous weirwoods the soil was too thin at the Eyrie.

Please provide your source for claiming that High Heart was well above the tree line. 

41 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

It what way, Jon is no different after being touched by the tree, I would imagine Bran has also visited Arya in her wolf dream off page.

Possibly, but there's no reference to it in Arya's thoughts. It at least appears to have been a more gradual process for her. 

43 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Bran has stronger abilities after waking from his fall, Arya after going blind, Jon probably after he dies

Why do you say they have stronger abilities after those events? Doesn't Bloodraven suggest that Bran was born with his abilities? 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

The wolf that Jon is dreaming himself as is not Ghost, notice that it howls. Also the whole "teleportation" thing... Jon is simply dreaming of himself as a wolf (not Ghost), Bran enters that dream (not wolfdream) and opens Jon's 3rd eye. That allows Jon to finally have his first wolfdream - so he enters Ghost who is actually at a real physical location, causing the "teleportation".

 

So this isn't Ghost, just some random wolf?

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

24 minutes ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

When does the eagle attack Jon?

 

Jon wasn't having a wolfdream when he sees Bran. He is having a normal dream that Bran enters, just as Bloodraven enters Bran's dreams. Bran opens Jon's 3rd eye and that's when Jon's first "wolfdream" begins.

 

Again, wrong. Jon is not wolfdreaming during their encounter, only afterwards.

The wolf that Jon is dreaming himself as is not Ghost, notice that it howls.

I disagree. The wolfdreaming begins when Jon closes his eyes, as quoted upthread...

Quote

When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon VII, Clash

That Ghost's howl makes sound shows us that we are in a dream, like when Andy tosses Woody in the garbage with a deck of cards, all of which are aces of spades. Besides, if that's not Ghost, which direwolf is it? 

30 minutes ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

Also the whole "teleportation" thing... Jon is simply dreaming of himself as a wolf (not Ghost), Bran enters that dream (not wolfdream) and opens Jon's 3rd eye. That allows Jon to finally have his first wolfdream - so he enters Ghost who is actually at a real physical location, causing the "teleportation".

Perhaps. I don't believe that there is another direwolf, but I like the rest of your explantion. Do I understand correctly: At first he's in one of those weird vision dreams Bloodraven's been inspiring in several characters. Then, after Bran opens Jon's eyes, he can see through Ghosts? 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

42 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Please provide your source for claiming that High Heart was well above the tree line. 

Possibly, but there's no reference to it in Arya's thoughts. It at least appears to have been a more gradual process for her. 

Why do you say they have stronger abilities after those events? Doesn't Bloodraven suggest that Bran was born with his abilities? 

"The next day they rode to a place called HighHeart, a hill so lofty that from atop it Arya felt as though she could see half the world. Around its brow stood a ring of huge pale stumps, all that remained of a circle of once-mighty weirwoods. Arya and Gendry walked around the hill to count them. There were thirty-one, some so wide that she could have used them for a bed.

High Heart had been sacred to the children of the forest, Tom Sevenstrings told her, and some of their magic lingered here still. "No harm can ever come to those as sleep here," the singer said. Arya thought that must be true; the hill was so high and the surrounding lands so flat that no enemy could approach unseen" Arya 4 swords

Bran might have been born with them but he needs to open his eyes as you quoted above.  They have innate ability no doubt, but it would seem Bran and Arya can control their ability better after the coma/blindness.  No longer subconscious dreams but true 2nd skin and animals/hodor of their choice.  

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

So this isn't Ghost, just some random wolf?

Quote

Not a random wolf, there is no wolf. Jon is dreaming.

Wolfdreams are when the Starks see reality (real events that are actually happening in the physical world) from the perspective of their wolves. Jon was having a dream (events happening only inside his/Bran's head) from his own perspective (not Ghost's until the shift - which is when the "dream" ends and the "wolfdream" begins).

57 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps. I don't believe that there is another direwolf

What's so hard to understand about it being a dream? Of course there is no other wolf.

[Lost Melnibonean]

29 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

"The next day they rode to a place called HighHeart, a hill so lofty that from atop it Arya felt as though she could see half the world. Around its brow stood a ring of huge pale stumps, all that remained of a circle of once-mighty weirwoods. Arya and Gendry walked around the hill to count them. There were thirty-one, some so wide that she could have used them for a bed.

High Heart had been sacred to the children of the forest, Tom Sevenstrings told her, and some of their magic lingered here still. "No harm can ever come to those as sleep here," the singer said. Arya thought that must be true; the hill was so high and the surrounding lands so flat that no enemy could approach unseen" Arya 4 swords

I'm sorry, I just read the quote you provided, but I missed the bit where we learn that High Heart is well above the tree line. Could you highlight it for me? 

31 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Bran might have been born with them but he needs to open his eyes as you quoted above.  They have innate ability no doubt, but it would seem Bran and Arya can control their ability better after the coma/blindness.  No longer subconscious dreams but true 2nd skin and animals/hodor of their choice.  

How has Arya's ability improved after blindness? She could see through Nymeria's eyes before the blindness, right? That was from another continent. During her blindness she sees through the eyes of cat that's in the same room, right? What am I missing? Is she actually directing Nymeria's actions? Or the cat's? 

Bran's eyes weren't open until he was down in the crypts, no? And he didn't start skinchanging until that point, did he? 

Hmm, so maybe the darkness is a sources of strength...

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 minutes ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

Not a random wolf, there is no wolf. Jon is dreaming.

Wolfdreams are when the Starks see reality (real events that are actually happening in the physical world) from the perspective of their wolves. Jon was having a dream (events happening only inside his/Bran's head) from his own perspective (not Ghost's until the shift - which is when the "dream" ends and the "wolfdream" begins).

What's so hard to understand about it being a dream? Of course there is no other wolf.

As Jon begins to dream he tells us that he sees his brothers and sister--obviously the subject is Ghost. Then he, the same subject mind you, howls. That's Ghost, but dream Ghost. 

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

Not a random wolf, there is no wolf. Jon is dreaming.

Wolfdreams are when the Starks see reality (real events that are actually happening in the physical world) from the perspective of their wolves. Jon was having a dream (events happening only inside his/Bran's head) from his own perspective (not Ghost's until the shift - which is when the "dream" ends and the "wolfdream" begins).

Wolf  contact the Bran and Jon through their dreams; triggered by a different state of consciousness i.e. sleep.  The direwolves initiate the contact with the stark kids at first; the starks experience what the wolf is experiencing; running, hunting, eating etc.  Jon and Bran can't initiate the contact until the 3rd eye is open. Up until that point, the wolves make the contact.  Jon and Bran are both experiencing what their direwolves are doing during their dreams.  Jon and Bran experience the world through the senses of their direwolves: the sense of smell, sight, hearing and taste in particular.  The wolf dreams are untrained and undirected events in warging, something not yet under Jon or Bran's control. 

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Wolf dreams are triggered by a different state of consciousness i.e. sleep.  The direwolves initiate the contact with the stark kids at first; the starks  experience what the wolf is experiencing; running, hunting, eating etc.  Jon and Bran can't initiate the contact until the 3rd eye is open. Up until that point, the wolves make the contact.  Jon and Bran are both experiencing what their direwolves are doing during their dreams.

What? Are you trying to say that all their dreams are wolfdreams? What about Jon's dreams of the crypts? Do those have to be from inside Ghost as well? What about Bran's dreams of the weirwood and three-eyed crow? Are those also from inside Summer?

What about Jaime's dreams of Brienne with a flaming sword and Rhaegar and the old kingsguard? Is he dreaming from inside a lion we haven't met yet?

sigh...