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Tyrion1991

What was the point of the Dothraki Battle?

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Its probably the most irrelevant battle on the show ever. All the other big battles have had major ramifications and have seriously changed the direction of the series. But rather than reversing the endless series of catastrophes inflicted by Euron's 1000 teleporting ships and the Lannisters 250,000 invisible men steam roll everything; it simply ends with Dany & Co having to beg Cersei to help them. There was a lot of Dothraki that bowed before Dany last season and I am pretty sure her allies had more men by themselves. Plus I still call bull on Euron, even in the books I do not understand where the Greyjoys get 1000 ships from; its an obscene number.

So burning all the grain in the Reach - Irrelevant.

Killing Lannister soldiers - Irrelevant. More will rise from the pits of Isengard.

Cersei gets the gold anyway

Cersei doesn't lose any territory, unlike Dany

Cersei doesn't lose any major allies, unlike Dany

Jamie stays loyal until the whole "risks the dead winning" thing and he is just one man. So yeah it contributed a little towards Jamie leaving Cersei. Big deal, losing him is going to clearly make all difference for her. 

Tarly dead - Who cares there were a lot more Southern Lords ready to fight Dany. Obviously Dany has committed some horrific and monstrous act against the Reach Lords like getting a load of them in a Church and blowing it up. Oh wait, yeah that's good Queen Cersei.

A few hundred Lannisters bend the knee. Again who cares, the pits of Isengard will spring forth more of these abominations. Which is a little cruel actually since Uruk Hai are actually cool and impressive as opposed to men with free will to do good but choose to be rapists, thieves, murderers and join the army which committed the Red Wedding. Much more evil than Orcs.

From a story telling perspective the battle had no relevance or importance. Nothing changes. The Lannisters are still winning. Still more powerful. No land changes hands. The Southern Lords are still universal in their hatred of Dany; because reasons. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Its probably the most irrelevant battle on the show ever. All the other big battles have had major ramifications and have seriously changed the direction of the series. But rather than reversing the endless series of catastrophes inflicted by Euron's 1000 teleporting ships and the Lannisters 250,000 invisible men steam roll everything; it simply ends with Dany & Co having to beg Cersei to help them. There was a lot of Dothraki that bowed before Dany last season and I am pretty sure her allies had more men by themselves. Plus I still call bull on Euron, even in the books I do not understand where the Greyjoys get 1000 ships from; its an obscene number.

So burning all the grain in the Reach - Irrelevant.

Killing Lannister soldiers - Irrelevant. More will rise from the pits of Isengard.

Cersei gets the gold anyway

Cersei doesn't lose any territory, unlike Dany

Cersei doesn't lose any major allies, unlike Dany

Jamie stays loyal until the whole "risks the dead winning" thing and he is just one man. So yeah it contributed a little towards Jamie leaving Cersei. Big deal, losing him is going to clearly make all difference for her. 

Tarly dead - Who cares there were a lot more Southern Lords ready to fight Dany. Obviously Dany has committed some horrific and monstrous act against the Reach Lords like getting a load of them in a Church and blowing it up. Oh wait, yeah that's good Queen Cersei.

A few hundred Lannisters bend the knee. Again who cares, the pits of Isengard will spring forth more of these abominations. Which is a little cruel actually since Uruk Hai are actually cool and impressive as opposed to men with free will to do good but choose to be rapists, thieves, murderers and join the army which committed the Red Wedding. Much more evil than Orcs.

From a story telling perspective the battle had no relevance or importance. Nothing changes. The Lannisters are still winning. Still more powerful. No land changes hands. The Southern Lords are still universal in their hatred of Dany; because reasons. 

 

 

:agree: nevermind the fact that Dany burned the friggin' supplies that she said earlier that she herself needed for her own army. 

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The battle serves to convince Cersei and Jaime that they have no chance of defeating Daenerys in battle and convince Tyrion that if he doesn't do something Dany will likely destroy all vestigages of the Lannisters. 

Those morivations end up driving the end of the season. 

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13 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

The battle serves to convince Cersei and Jaime that they have no chance of defeating Daenerys in battle and convince Tyrion that if he doesn't do something Dany will likely destroy all vestigages of the Lannisters. 

Those morivations end up driving the end of the season. 

Except in working protect siblings he should loath, atleast when it comes to Cersie, he is actually ensuring the demise of the Lannisters if Dany should realize what he has done. Nevermind the fact that as a general he has sucked royally and lost her the Reach and Dorne and stranded her infantry on the other side of the continent when he was actually trying to win, but to actually actively seek to protect his siblings after wagon train massacre is traitorous. 

It is one of the many reasons i miss Ser Barristan "The Muthafuggin' Bold" Selmy Aka Ser Grandfather aka "fuck you and the ten men you sent after me that i killed after you kicked me out of the Kingsguard and I said no to your retirement package, Cersie" so much. He would have given Dany not only proper advice but also legitimacy through not only his presence but also a proper queensguard. Also just his presence beside Dany would enhance her in the nobilty of Westeros' eyes. For all his faults Aerys' Kingsguard was full of highly decorated and respected knights that are still highly regarded throughout the Seven Kingdoms. Barristan is the last true honorable Kingsguard whose honor and cloak has not been stained. 

Dany would have been repaid hugely by having Barristan in her service...yet instead we have him killed in a fucking alley saving Greyworm who seemingly only exists for cool action scenes, bad joke scenes with tyrion, and admittedly a touching love story between him and Missandei...which i dig because #blacklove. But still the waste that was Barry dying...fuck

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50 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

The battle serves to convince Cersei and Jaime that they have no chance of defeating Daenerys in battle and convince Tyrion that if he doesn't do something Dany will likely destroy all vestigages of the Lannisters. 

Those morivations end up driving the end of the season. 

Pretty much. 
I have a sneaking suspicion that Tyrion doesn't actually consider what he's doing to be betrayal, but I'm not sure if his queen agrees.

The battle also served as a turning point in the war between Daenerys and Cersei. Up to that point, Dany's side had suffered defeat after defeat and Cersei had won one battle after the other. After having lost the Tyrells, the Greyjoys and the Sandsnakes, and gaining the hollow victory that was Casterly Rock, Dany tires of letting others do the fighting for her and unleashes her dothraki and Drogon.
The result was not only her first victory in the war that actually mattered, but it was a crushing victory, especially in terms of morale: In less than 30 minutes, Jamie goes from "We're winning this war" to "We have no chance of winning" and tries to convince Cersei to sue for peace.

If the loot train battle hadn't happened, I'd wonder why Cersei agreed to meet with Dany in the first place in episode 7. Dany would've been on the loosing side, why would Cersei even consider accepting her attempt at parley? 

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24 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Except in working protect siblings he should loath, atleast when it comes to Cersie, he is actually ensuring the demise of the Lannisters if Dany should realize what he has done. Nevermind the fact that as a general he has sucked royally and lost her the Reach and Dorne and stranded her infantry on the other side of the continent when he was actually trying to win, but to actually actively seek to protect his siblings after wagon train massacre is traitorous. 

It is one of the many reasons i miss Ser Barristan "The Muthafuggin' Bold" Selmy Aka Ser Grandfather aka "fuck you and the ten men you sent after me that i killed after you kicked me out of the Kingsguard and I said no to your retirement package, Cersie" so much. He would have given Dany not only proper advice but also legitimacy through not only his presence but also a proper queensguard. Also just his presence beside Dany would enhance her in the nobilty of Westeros' eyes. For all his faults Aerys' Kingsguard was full of highly decorated and respected knights that are still highly regarded throughout the Seven Kingdoms. Barristan is the last true honorable Kingsguard whose honor and cloak has not been stained. 

Dany would have been repaid hugely by having Barristan in her service...yet instead we have him killed in a fucking alley saving Greyworm who seemingly only exists for cool action scenes, bad joke scenes with tyrion, and admittedly a touching love story between him and Missandei...which i dig because #blacklove. But still the waste that was Barry dying...fuck

Tyrion robbed us all of seeing Cersei served  Fire and Blood. Not sure the character will ever recovery in my eyes after that and after undermining Dany. 

I hope your right and his actions lead to the demise of House Lannister.

The Dragon needs to swallow the Lion. 

Edited by jcmontea

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7 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Pretty much. 
I have a sneaking suspicion that Tyrion doesn't actually consider what he's doing to be betrayal, but I'm not sure if his queen agrees.

The battle also served as a turning point in the war between Daenerys and Cersei. Up to that point, Dany's side had suffered defeat after defeat and Cersei had won one battle after the other. After having lost the Tyrells, the Greyjoys and the Sandsnakes, and gaining the hollow victory that was Casterly Rock, Dany tires of letting others do the fighting for her and unleashes her dothraki and Drogon.
The result was not only her first victory in the war that actually mattered, but it was a crushing victory, especially in terms of morale: In less than 30 minutes, Jamie goes from "We're winning this war" to "We have no chance of winning" and tries to convince Cersei to sue for peace.

If the loot train battle hadn't happened, I'd wonder why Cersei agreed to meet with Dany in the first place in episode 7. Dany would've been on the loosing side, why would Cersei even consider accepting her attempt at parley? 

I agree. He might not even be concious that he has betrayed her. He probably tells himself he is just restraining her which is why she named him Hand in the first place. 

Agree. Cersei was only willing to parley after Loot Train and after she was pregnant. Change one of those and Cersei would not have been interested. 

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20 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

:agree: nevermind the fact that Dany burned the friggin' supplies that she said earlier that she herself needed for her own army. 

She didn't burn all the supplies though. The Loot train was long and moving slow.  Tarly told Jaime and Bronn this at the beginning of episode.

Edited by Daemon The Black Dragon

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22 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

She didn't burn all the supplies though. The Loot train was long and moving slow.  Tarly told Jaime and Bronn this at the beginning of episode.

I get it. Fans have gotten very good at rationalizing everything they see. However, The woman literally made a bee line along the road and burned gods knows how many supply wagons.

Maybe she didn't burn them all, but by the looks of it she sure was trying. Which is still dumb.

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well it showed her finally saying f*** it and rather then use tyrions plans and try to cause as little bloodshed as possible she fought a big battle and turned the tide of war. Without the tarly's backing the crown I don't see the rest of the reach backing cersei. Now that the dragons have been used and dany's forces crushed the lannister and tarly in battle everyone will see the futility of going against dany and thus making it almost impossible for cersei to gain anymore allies. And they had to show a dragon fighting the lannister army. But seriously she basically just made it clear that she was going to win and nobody can stop her

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19 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Except in working protect siblings he should loath, atleast when it comes to Cersie, he is actually ensuring the demise of the Lannisters if Dany should realize what he has done. Nevermind the fact that as a general he has sucked royally and lost her the Reach and Dorne and stranded her infantry on the other side of the continent when he was actually trying to win, but to actually actively seek to protect his siblings after wagon train massacre is traitorous. 

It is one of the many reasons i miss Ser Barristan "The Muthafuggin' Bold" Selmy Aka Ser Grandfather aka "fuck you and the ten men you sent after me that i killed after you kicked me out of the Kingsguard and I said no to your retirement package, Cersie" so much. He would have given Dany not only proper advice but also legitimacy through not only his presence but also a proper queensguard. Also just his presence beside Dany would enhance her in the nobilty of Westeros' eyes. For all his faults Aerys' Kingsguard was full of highly decorated and respected knights that are still highly regarded throughout the Seven Kingdoms. Barristan is the last true honorable Kingsguard whose honor and cloak has not been stained. 

Dany would have been repaid hugely by having Barristan in her service...yet instead we have him killed in a fucking alley saving Greyworm who seemingly only exists for cool action scenes, bad joke scenes with tyrion, and admittedly a touching love story between him and Missandei...which i dig because #blacklove. But still the waste that was Barry dying...fuck

yeah i really wish they hadn't killed him. His character was great and the actor who played him nailed it. I don't think tyrion will betray dany and have cersei win but I do think he is helping her by not letting dany finish her off. Seriously I am not liking his character this season.

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1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

yeah i really wish they hadn't killed him. His character was great and the actor who played him nailed it. I don't think tyrion will betray dany and have cersei win but I do think he is helping her by not letting dany finish her off. Seriously I am not liking his character this season.

Barristan dying and Winterhell was when I basically lost hope that this show would get to those great moments in the books I read or even accurately portray them and had actual joy over. The North Remembers plotline in the ADWD is what gives you hope that house Stark is going to reclaim Winterfell and that it will be because of the Legacy left by Ned and those before him who ruled the North wisely and justly. It was so well done that there were debates over whose legacy will prevail in the end: Ned's or Tywin's? Then we had Barristan and Jaime parallels going on in their own journeys where they are both having to redefine not only themselves but the roles of the institutions they serve. The former theme was horrendously butchered and the latter was lost to the winds and never put on film.

 

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4 hours ago, Eddard the Builder said:

Barristan dying was one of the worst mistakes this show made aside from Dorne and cutting Lady Stoneheart.

Seeing Barry go down like a chump sucked. 

You could fix 80% of the problems with season 5 by making the Sand Snakes non speaking roles, eliminating the Water Garden fight and having it just be one attempt on Myrcella's life at the very end by Elaria and giving that screen time to Barry and Dany talking about her family and letting Barry die like a hero in the dragon pits protecting his Queen. 

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On 9/14/2017 at 11:18 PM, jcmontea said:

The battle serves to convince Cersei and Jaime that they have no chance of defeating Daenerys in battle and convince Tyrion that if he doesn't do something Dany will likely destroy all vestigages of the Lannisters. 

Those morivations end up driving the end of the season. 

What end of the season were you watching? Cersei's plan is to buy the Golden Company, the point of which is to defeat Dany in battle. Jaime, though convinced she's nuts, is all "yes, dear" only until he sees the zombie. It's the zombie, not the battle that makes him run away. 

You have a point about Tyrion, because the Wight Hunt was his stupid idea. Without him intervening in favor of the army whose Lord he murdered with a crossbow, the season probably ends with Dany burning the Red Keep or simply besieging King's Landing. At least based on what information we're given.

I'm forced to guess Tyrion is acting out of mercy to his Lannister peeps, because we're not told. Not counting what he says privately to Cersei, which could be a lie. I don't know when or really if this change of heart came about, or if he had been of the same opinion on the subject back when he was barfing up wine in Pentos. Because the show doesn't tell me. 

Is this an example of Tyrion's development or his consistency? I dunno. But the idea that what he witnessed on the Field of Fire, Part II (this time it's personal) explains why he comes up with the plan to enlist Cersei in the fight against the dead is plausible. 

Edited by darmody

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On 9/15/2017 at 0:16 AM, MinscS2 said:


The battle also served as a turning point in the war between Daenerys and Cersei. Up to that point, Dany's side had suffered defeat after defeat and Cersei had won one battle after the other. 

Yes, then Dany exploited her first victory by...abandoning the war and presenting her lovely backside to Cersei, as if to say, "Please, mistress, would you be so kind as to stab me?"

What a turning point!

Edited by darmody

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

Yes, then Dany exploited her first victory by...abandoning the war and presenting her lovely backside to Cersei, as if to say, "Please, mistress, would you be so kind as to stab me?"

What a turning point!

What should she have done? Would you have preferred she told Jon go back to the North and protect your people. I am going to stay in the South finish off Cersei and if your still alive i will help out then? 

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13 minutes ago, darmody said:

What end of the season were you watching? Cersei's plan is to buy the Golden Company, the point of which is to defeat Dany in battle. Jaime, though convinced she's nuts, is all "yes, dear" only until he sees the zombie. It's the zombie, not the battle that makes him run away. 

After the field of fire and jaime's report back Cersei realizes that she needs to play for time. That is why she tells him "i have decided an accomodation with the Dragon queen is in our interests, if we are going to beat her we need to be clever like father" 

Had Dany asked for an armistace after Cersei saked Highgarden Cersei would not have even granted her a hearing in all liklihood. Cersei needed to have her back against the wall to agree to the dragonpit meeting. Thats what i mean when I say the battle shapped her motivations. 

13 minutes ago, darmody said:

You have a point about Tyrion, because the Wight Hunt was his stupid idea. Without him intervening in favor of the army whose Lord he murdered with a crossbow, the season probably ends with Dany burning the Red Keep or simply besieging King's Landing. At least based on what information we're given.

I'm forced to guess Tyrion is acting out of mercy to his Lannister peeps, because we're not told. Not counting what he says privately to Cersei, which could be a lie. I don't know when or really if this change of heart came about, or if he had been of the same opinion on the subject back when he was barfing up wine in Pentos. Because the show doesn't tell me. 

I think the show does tell us: 

7x04: "Our enemies? Your family, you mean. Perhaps you don't want to hurt them after all." - Dany 

7x04 and 7x05: Tyrion is visually distraught seeing the Lannister army butchered. The Rains of Castamere is even playing over the scene in 7x04 just with violins in a very melancolhic version of the song which is generally a song about Lannister power

7x06: "one can be forgiven for thinking your taking your family's side in this debate" - Dany

7x07: in response to Cersei saying he was working for the destruction of their family

"i am the one that prevented that from happening. Daenerys didn't want to debate and negotiate. She didn't want to bring you words. She wanted to bring you fire and blood until I advised her other wise. I don't want to destroy our family. I never have." - Tyrion

13 minutes ago, darmody said:

Is this an example of Tyrion's development or his consistency? I dunno. But the idea that what he witnessed on the Field of Fire, Part II (this time it's personal) explains why he comes up with the plan to enlist Cersei in the fight against the dead is plausible. 

 

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8 hours ago, jcmontea said:

What should she have done? Would you have preferred she told Jon go back to the North and protect your people. I am going to stay in the South finish off Cersei and if your still alive i will help out then? 

Sounds perfect, actually.

Remember, at that point she still didn't really believe Jon. She put the war on pause more because of qualms over sacking King's Landing than the war against the dead. 

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10 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Seeing Barry go down like a chump sucked. 

You could fix 80% of the problems with season 5 by making the Sand Snakes non speaking roles, eliminating the Water Garden fight and having it just be one attempt on Myrcella's life at the very end by Elaria and giving that screen time to Barry and Dany talking about her family and letting Barry die like a hero in the dragon pits protecting his Queen. 

I agree with everything but Barristan dying in Mereen in any fashion. Barristan should only die in Westeros after making sure Dany has won the Iron Throne or for sure will sit on it. 

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