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snuitking

The prince who was promised...

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Hello There,

There is one thing about the prince who was promised prophecy which I dont get. If it is already known the prince who was promised will defeat the Night king. Then why is everyone bothered about the WW threat? Melisandre knows that Jon Snow is the prince who was promised, so is it even possible for Jon to lose against the Night king?

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There are alot of stories and prophecies that are conflated together. Azor Ahai is often told of being from similar origins as the prince who was promised but they are different stories.
The prince who was promised is said to save a world found in darkness back into the light. It is said that if he fails to do this, the world fails with him. So it is not guaranteed and everyones roll to play in this is hard to predict.

Azor Ahai, is said to have his coming heralded by flaming star etc. That he will wield a sword from the fire and thsi sword will be lightbringer reborn, and the darkness that has fallen over the world will flee before him.

In the books there are other cultures with similar prophecies. I take this as in real life that many different relgions have similar orign stories that change over time.

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Even assuming everything about that is right and it's absolutely guaranteed that Jon will defeat the NK,* that doesn't tell us whether Jon will defeat the NK in the middle of the Gift with only three casualties, or retreat and retreat and finally defeat the NK in the middle of Dorne with 99% of Westeros dead.

So, wouldn't it be worth worrying about the second one happening, and doing everything to prevent it?**

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* As balerionsteel points out, you didn't get all the details right. And even if you did, assuming that Mel has interpreted the prophecies perfectly is never a good idea—remember that not long ago, she was sure that Stannis was the PtwP, and that faking a flaming sword for him would turn it into the real Lightbringer…

** If for no other reason than to avoid the show going back to Dorne…

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I'm not sure Melisandre is sure Jon is the prince. Jon is still less sure of it. And even if so, it doesn't mean the future is set. Jon could die before. He can't do it alone. IMO, the prince is the only possible way to end the Long Night with some people still alive. It doesn't mean he will succeed, even if everything else goes wrong.

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Not sure if Mel belives this stuff 100% anymore either. She is much more humble now about her interpretations. 

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8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Not sure if Mel belives this stuff 100% anymore either. She is much more humble now about her interpretations. 

Agreed.
When Dany asked if Mel believes the prophecy refers to her in S7E2 and Mel replied "Prophecies are...dangerous things. I believe you have a role to play, as does another, the king in the north, Jon Snow", I didn't interpret her lack of "yes" or "no" to Dany's question as Mel avoiding the question, but simply that Mel is no longer sure about anything anymore. She's been wrong so many times and has started question herself and her belief, which has made her humble and less adamant about what she see's in the flames.

She's right about one thing though: Jon and Dany do have a role to play in the coming war, and she did bring Ice and Fire together. 

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"A Northern King and a Dragon Queen, to save the realm from winter and death, and to become the father and mother of a new dynasty, is almost like a song. A song of Ice and Fire."

https://weirwoodleviathan.wordpress.com/2016/02/03/vii-the-wedding-of-ice-and-fire/

intersting article on ice and fire and the parallels that also has some interesting parallels btw Jon and Aragon.

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"Anakin, You were the Chosen One!"

Martin didn't gave us original prophecy text for a reason - there may be the major twist. Please note, there is no Night King (White walker one) in the book. Whatever Jon is supposed to do fill full his destiny in book, it has nothing to do with "defeating GoT version of Sauron".

I also remember Martin words of non-existing possibility of Song of Ice and Fire sequels - all future books (and tv shows)  in this universe will take place in the past. It could mean Westeros is (or even entire Planetos) are awaiting apocalyptic scenario, after which there will be no place for any other story.

If it is truth, and Jon prophecy has major role to play, then possibly he may be somehow "hero of opposite team". Or at least entity as destructive, as enemy he is fighting against.

Anyway, it Song of Ice and Fire - human world lies between these two destructive powers. Maybe, the "optimal" scenario of winning this war, is fighting it. Clash of the elements leave no place for humanity - everything is for millenias.

 

We don't know how the first Long Night ended. There are some text about Last Hero, Lightbringer sword - no mention of any battle. It could mean "defeating" others or "killing" Night King is not an option. Therefore PtWP role may be different. Sacrificial lamb? Successor of the Night King? Leader of survivors group supposed to rebuild humanity? maybe...

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Until future becomes present, it can be changed. There are unlimited number of possible futures. The prophecy about Prince that was promised, is only one of those possible futures. It may come true. Doesn't mean that it will definitely come true. Because some other version of future can happen instead.

Also if Prince will die before that moment, that was described in the prophecy, then that version of future won't happen at all, and thus prophecy won't be fulfilled. Which doesn't mean that the prophecy is false, the problem is that the future is undefined.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Until future becomes present, it can be changed. There are unlimited number of possible futures. The prophecy about Prince that was promised, is only one of those possible futures. It may come true. Doesn't mean that it will definitely come true. Because some other version of future can happen instead.

Also if Prince will die before that moment, that was described in the prophecy, then that version of future won't happen at all, and thus prophecy won't be fulfilled. Which doesn't mean that the prophecy is false, the problem is that the future is undefined.

"Prince" Jon actually died before moment described in prophecy. And was returned to life. Mellisandre was just "tool" in hands of Greater Power, she has no idea what she is doing, but she accidentally was in perfect place and time to save Jon... Perhaps some parts of prophecy are time-space constants, nothing can change them, and if someone tries to, miracle is happening to "fix" timeline. Probably some parts of future are pre-determined, other parts belong to people decisions and free will. Characters cannot stop some events, but their decisions may still impact life of millions. It makes some kind of balance between free-will and destiny.

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9 hours ago, Arthanis said:

We don't know how the first Long Night ended. There are some text about Last Hero, Lightbringer sword - no mention of any battle. It could mean "defeating" others or "killing" Night King is not an option. Therefore PtWP role may be different. Sacrificial lamb? Successor of the Night King? Leader of survivors group supposed to rebuild humanity? maybe...

In the novels, there is a mention of a "Battle for the Dawn". I think the first mention is a Bran chapter in ACoK. TWoW specifically says that "Thanks to the children, he first men of the Night’s Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north."

I believe the show changed the first mention to "War for the Dawn", and since then they've gone with "The Great War" for both the present conflict and the one 8000 years ago. (But I'm not as sure of my TV knowledge, and it's harder to look up.) Maybe the show's version of the war didn't end in a decisive Battle for the Dawn, maybe the war ended with some other outcome than the Walkers sent fleeing to the icy north, but it seems pretty clear there was a war, and humans won.

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hmm, so basically the future is not guarenteed, it might aswell happen that the NK wins the upcoming war(not that I think the show will do this) but it is a possibility. The show made pretty clear that Jon Snow and the NK will 1v1, and that will probably decide the outcome of this war.

 

edit: just realized that Bran saw a vision from the future, when cersei blew up the sept. So isnt the ink dry for the future aswell?

Edited by snuitking

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9 hours ago, snuitking said:

just realized that Bran saw a vision from the future, when cersei blew up the sept. So isnt the ink dry for the future aswell?

I think different kinds of visions work differently—some things are destined to happen, but others are not guaranteed because of humans having free will and annoying stuff like that.

In the novels, there are definitely examples. For example, Quaithe tells Dany about what's almost certainly fAegon coming to Volantis on his way to meet her, which is apparently what was going to happen—but then Tyrion ran into fAegon and convinced him to go invade Westeros instead, so the vision didn't come true.

Not to mention Dany's HotU vision of a grown-up Rhaego a-conquering, which we already knew to be a vision of something that was never to be, but maybe could have been if things had gone differently.

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