Jump to content

Why the Others Must Not Be Merely Evil


mankytoes

Recommended Posts

It seems to me a lot of people's theories operate under the assumption that the Others will be the simply evil and destructive force they appear to be. I think this is not going to be the case, and it's quite clear when you look at the narrative themes.

Maybe the character who talks the most about the Others is Melisandre, and she has a very clear, very simple world view-

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

I think it's really clear that the author does not support this worldview. The text generally has a famously morally complex nature, and forces can never really be seen as "good" or "evil". The most obvious single example is where Mel tells Davos he can't be a "grey" onion, parts good and bad, and later Samwell simply cuts the rotten part out an onion and eats the rest.

A final stand off between good and evil is just too standard and boring.

We've also been given extremely little information about The Others, considering they have been active in some way for the entire story. It seems like there's probably a reason for that, some greater complexity that needs to be revealed later on.

If they aren't just a force that wants to mindlessly kill all humans, what are they? Some kind of pawns or allies of the Children of the Forest, who quite reasonably want retaliation for mankind taking over their land, seems the most likely to me.

Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that the final standoff between good and evil is boring. It's only been done in a million fantasy novels already. I would rather have Littlefinger and Sansa on the throne at the end, or Gendry Baratheon, just so long as it's not Jon or Dany. I also want Tyrion and Arya dead at the end as they are the author and authors wife's favourite characters - they need to die. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's evil about the others?

a- They resurrect people who are killed by others
b- they work as a unit. No backstabbing, no hatred, no lust for power, no torture. 
c- they can keep to their side of the bargain (ex Craster)

Sure they are fighting the living. There again we don't know who started the war in the first place. Also note that they have mostly stayed at the northern side of the wall up until their friend Craster was killed by a 'Southerner' 

In my opinion the Others are the unconventional peace keepers . Their agression forces enemies to set aside their quabbles and fight them (first men and the children of the forest and potentially Starks, Targs and Lannisters). If the latter don't come to an agreement.....well they deserve to be erased from the first of the earth. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Darken said:

What's evil about the others?

a- They resurrect people who are killed by others
b- they work as a unit. No backstabbing, no hatred, no lust for power, no torture. 
c- they can keep to their side of the bargain (ex Craster)

Sure they are fighting the living. There again we don't know who started the war in the first place. Also note that they have mostly stayed at the northern side of the wall up until their friend Craster was killed by a 'Southerner' 

In my opinion the Others are the unconventional peace keepers . Their agression forces enemies to set aside their quabbles and fight them (first men and the children of the forest and potentially Starks, Targs and Lannisters). If the latter don't come to an agreement.....well they deserve to be erased from the first of the earth. 

Well, they were pretty big pricks during the prologue when they mocked Royce and then laughed while butchering him :D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mankytoes said:

It seems to me a lot of people's theories operate under the assumption that the Others will be the simply evil and destructive force they appear to be. I think this is not going to be the case, and it's quite clear when you look at the narrative themes.

Maybe the character who talks the most about the Others is Melisandre, and she has a very clear, very simple world view-

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

I think it's really clear that the author does not support this worldview. The text generally has a famously morally complex nature, and forces can never really be seen as "good" or "evil". The most obvious single example is where Mel tells Davos he can't be a "grey" onion, parts good and bad, and later Samwell simply cuts the rotten part out an onion and eats the rest.

A final stand off between good and evil is just too standard and boring.

We've also been given extremely little information about The Others, considering they have been active in some way for the entire story. It seems like there's probably a reason for that, some greater complexity that needs to be revealed later on.

If they aren't just a force that wants to mindlessly kill all humans, what are they? Some kind of pawns or allies of the Children of the Forest, who quite reasonably want retaliation for mankind taking over their land, seems the most likely to me.

Thoughts?

So, do you suspect that those who sing the song of earth created the Others to fight mankind, and that Bloodraven has been turned against mankind by the singers, and that the singers are using Bloodraven to turn Bran against mankind as well, and that those who sing the song of earth are risking, or even inviting, the destruction of all life in revenge for the wrong done to their race after the Andals came? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Well, they were pretty big pricks during the prologue when they mocked Royce and then laughed while butchering him :D.

Well, imagine if in prologue we were following young Other who somehow finds a way around the wall and runs into Bloody Mummers somehow, or their equivalent. :D And they were the ones and only humans we saw in entire series. They'd do much more than quickly kill him while laughing - if they managed to get their hands on him, that is. Still we don't think that all humans are evil.

As far as we know it's quite possible that all Others coexist peacefully and never do anything bad to each other - in this case they seem much better race than humans, who kill, torture, rape, maim little children etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, do you suspect that those who sing the song of earth created the Others to fight mankind, and that Bloodraven has been turned against mankind by the singers, and that the singers are using Bloodraven to turn Bran against mankind as well, and that those who sing the song of earth are risking, or even inviting, the destruction of all life in revenge for the wrong done to their race after the Andals came? 

Personally, I think winter is a weapon created by the Children to fight mankind. The Others were created by themselves to survive that winter rather than give in to their demands. They would likely see the rest of humanity as traitors for capitulating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Agnessa Schizoid said:

Well, imagine if in prologue we were following young Other who somehow finds a way around the wall and runs into Bloody Mummers somehow, or their equivalent. :D And they were the ones and only humans we saw in entire series. They'd do much more than quickly kill him while laughing - if they managed to get their hands on him, that is. Still we don't think that all humans are evil.

As far as we know it's quite possible that all Others coexist peacefully and never do anything bad to each other - in this case they seem much better race than humans, who kill, torture, rape, maim little children etc.

:lol:.  Now I'm just imagining the Night King ordering that group of pricks away from him just to get a break from them.  Imagining that Other who killed Royce as like the Others' version of the Mountain is hilarious.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

:lol:.  Now I'm just imagining the Night King ordering that group of pricks away from him just to get a break from them.  Imagining that Other who killed Royce as like the Others' version of the Mountain is hilarious.  

"People fear you."

"Good."

"You are mistaken. It is not good. t is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."

The Lands of Always Winter certainly do seem pretty peaceful and quiet, and he's kept it that way for 8000 years, which is even longer than Roose. (Well, probably; who knows what Roose's deal really is…)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, do you suspect that those who sing the song of earth created the Others to fight mankind, and that Bloodraven has been turned against mankind by the singers, and that the singers are using Bloodraven to turn Bran against mankind as well, and that those who sing the song of earth are risking, or even inviting, the destruction of all life in revenge for the wrong done to their race after the Andals came? 

I'd prefer the idea that the Children are allying or manipulating the Others than that they just created them, it's just a lot more interesting to me. I think Bloodraven is sympathetic to the Children, whether that's more persuation or manipulation would be a guess.

I suppose you could say that, as dragons are a confirmed analogy for nuclear weapons, maybe the Others are the Children's nuke equivalent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're told multiple times, including by reliable sources like Old Nan, that the Children helped the Last Hero to do whatever it was he needed to do to win the Long Night. They wouldn't have done that if they're on the opposing side. That doesn't mean they're allies of humanity, just the enemy of humanity's enemy. But in times of desperation, that's usually good enough. And likewise, Bloodraven may well not want the same things as Jon, but if they both want to stop the Others, that's good enough for wartime. (Afterward, if Bloodraven and the Children want Bran to sacrifice his life to hold the Others at bay for a few centuries or something, the human good guys may not be so happy about that.)

So the obvious answer is the one staring us in the face: the Children summoned, created, and/or manipulated the Others to fight humanity, their weapon got out of control in a standard "Here's why you don't build sentient weapons of mass destruction" story, and they had to help the humans to stop them.

And that doesn't necessarily make the Others evil in a moral sense. They were hired to come in and do a job, and then the people who'd hired them turned against them. We've seen countless secret agent movies where the person in that position is the hero, not the villain.

But if their job is something that requires destroying humanity as a side effect, then humans probably won't be able to negotiate with them. Especially if they were not so much hired as created for that purpose, or put under a geas, or otherwise compelled. That doesn't cheapen the morality of the story. Nor does it make the story unnecessarily simplistic—finding out the Others' goals and their targets could still be important even if negotiation isn't the answer.

Contrarily, if the Others are just another faction the same as any human faction, there's really no reason for them to be Others in the first place. They could just be another humanoid race or human culture with a magical or technological advantage, just like the Andals were.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, mankytoes said:

It seems to me a lot of people's theories operate under the assumption that the Others will be the simply evil and destructive force they appear to be. I think this is not going to be the case, and it's quite clear when you look at the narrative themes.

Maybe the character who talks the most about the Others is Melisandre, and she has a very clear, very simple world view-

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

I think it's really clear that the author does not support this worldview. The text generally has a famously morally complex nature, and forces can never really be seen as "good" or "evil". The most obvious single example is where Mel tells Davos he can't be a "grey" onion, parts good and bad, and later Samwell simply cuts the rotten part out an onion and eats the rest.

A final stand off between good and evil is just too standard and boring.

We've also been given extremely little information about The Others, considering they have been active in some way for the entire story. It seems like there's probably a reason for that, some greater complexity that needs to be revealed later on.

If they aren't just a force that wants to mindlessly kill all humans, what are they? Some kind of pawns or allies of the Children of the Forest, who quite reasonably want retaliation for mankind taking over their land, seems the most likely to me.

Thoughts?

I essentially think they wanna break the curse.

So far i ultimately think that the Others are seeking to break the curse against them to become human again. I think the Others were born of the Night's King and the Corpse Queen who may both be dead. The Others need to warg a human, to mate with a live woman, possibly of a specific bloodline. Through this his spirit with be bound to a mortal human form again. Which i think he gave his seed and soul to her, and got trapped in these Other bodies. 

So Jon and Dany's abilities may be all he needs of them. The whole prince that was promised bit is a lie, to get the die rolling. Which is why we the readers and the in world characters are so confused and can find meaning in almost any of it. Neither Jon or Dany is the prophesied prince. If any one is, it'll be their baby. 

Jon dies, is reanimated like the army of the Dead and Cold Hands, (By who? Who's controlling him with access to his memories?), then uses his body to mate with Dany. Allowing who ever is warging Jon, to put his seed and spirit into Dany and her child. Who will be "Never Born"

Long and short of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, falcotron said:

We're told multiple times, including by reliable sources like Old Nan, that the Children helped the Last Hero to do whatever it was he needed to do to win the Long Night. They wouldn't have done that if they're on the opposing side. That doesn't mean they're allies of humanity, just the enemy of humanity's enemy. But in times of desperation, that's usually good enough. And likewise, Bloodraven may well not want the same things as Jon, but if they both want to stop the Others, that's good enough for wartime. (Afterward, if Bloodraven and the Children want Bran to sacrifice his life to hold the Others at bay for a few centuries or something, the human good guys may not be so happy about that.)

So the obvious answer is the one staring us in the face: the Children summoned, created, and/or manipulated the Others to fight humanity, their weapon got out of control in a standard "Here's why you don't build sentient weapons of mass destruction" story, and they had to help the humans to stop them.

And that doesn't necessarily make the Others evil in a moral sense. They were hired to come in and do a job, and then the people who'd hired them turned against them. We've seen countless secret agent movies where the person in that position is the hero, not the villain.

But if their job is something that requires destroying humanity as a side effect, then humans probably won't be able to negotiate with them. Especially if they were not so much hired as created for that purpose, or put under a geas, or otherwise compelled. That doesn't cheapen the morality of the story. Nor does it make the story unnecessarily simplistic—finding out the Others' goals and their targets could still be important even if negotiation isn't the answer.

Contrarily, if the Others are just another faction the same as any human faction, there's really no reason for them to be Others in the first place. They could just be another humanoid race or human culture with a magical or technological advantage, just like the Andals were.

But what was this and why didn't it work? I mean, there seems to have been a peace sure, but the Others are still around. The COTF are all about gone as far as we know, and this would be their last chance to actually stop the Others for good. How though? What can they do differently this time that they didn't do last time, and why didn't they just do it the first time? Ive tried to imagine this in my head a few times and havn't come up with a good answer on my own yet. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But what was this and why didn't it work? I mean, there seems to have been a peace sure, but the Others are still around. The COTF are all about gone as far as we know, and this would be their last chance to actually stop the Others for good. How though? What can they do differently this time that they didn't do last time, and why didn't they just do it the first time? Ive tried to imagine this in my head a few times and havn't come up with a good answer on my own yet. 

First, how do we know this is about stopping the Others for good? If the best they can do is banish them and set up a chain of greenseers to keep them back for 8 or so millennia, I think most people would count that as a victory.

Second, while Bran may not be as powerful for the magical side as the Children were (then again, he might, who knows?), humans are a much better ally for the physical side this time around. Last time, they had one magic, flaming steel sword that the Children may have had to teach them to make, and beyond that it was all bronze and wood. This time, they have millions of steel weapons, hundreds of Valyrian steel weapons, possibly hundreds of flaming weapons (you think the blood trick that just started working again for Beric and Thoros won't work for, say, the Fiery Hand?), and three dragons bonded with riders.

And it may not even be just, or even at all, a matter of a decisive victory vs. a marginal one, but something different they can do that wasn't even an option last time. People like Melisandre and Marwin are just the latest in 8000 years of studies in how to mix the different religious and magical traditions of the world. If Valyria's magic was far greater than anything seen before, then, even though it's now gone, there's still knowledge out there that didn't exist 8000 years ago. Who knows what that could mean? Maybe Benerro sacrifices the whole damn city of Volantis for some spell that restores the old seasons, which will melt the bridge between the North and Arcticos, and the Others have to flee before that happens or drown in the new ocean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think the Others were born of the Night's King and the Corpse Queen who may both be dead.

Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Watch. The Watch was created during the Long Night by the Last Hero to fight the Others after he made a deal with the Children. How could that have happened before the Others even existed? Plus, Night's King was caught sacrificing to the Others. How did he do that before they existed? Also, Night's King took the Nightfort—an already existing castle on the already existing Wall—as his capital. Why would Brandon have built a Wall with magic spells to block the Others if the Others didn't exist yet?

The only way this works is if you assume everything Old Nan, etc. have told us is wrong. But if you assume it's all wrong, why believe there was a Night's King in the first place, or that the Watch is thousands of years old, or any of it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Watch. The Watch was created during the Long Night by the Last Hero to fight the Others after he made a deal with the Children. How could that have happened before the Others even existed? Plus, Night's King was caught sacrificing to the Others. How did he do that before they existed? Also, Night's King took the Nightfort—an already existing castle on the already existing Wall—as his capital. Why would Brandon have built a Wall with magic spells to block the Others if the Others didn't exist yet?

The only way this works is if you assume everything Old Nan, etc. have told us is wrong. But if you assume it's all wrong, why believe there was a Night's King in the first place, or that the Watch is thousands of years old, or any of it?

I think the legends are all mixed up. Not 100% wrong per se, but very distorted. I think the NK and Brandon the Builder are the same person. I think the first Others themselves may have been the original NW, and the oath was about the walls of Winterfell, the NK being the first King of Winter and progenitor of the Stark line, the Starks being the terrible half-human children that Old Nan spoke of. But that's admittedly a lot of speculation.

5 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I'd prefer the idea that the Children are allying or manipulating the Others than that they just created them, it's just a lot more interesting to me. I think Bloodraven is sympathetic to the Children, whether that's more persuation or manipulation would be a guess.

I suppose you could say that, as dragons are a confirmed analogy for nuclear weapons, maybe the Others are the Children's nuke equivalent.

I basically agree with your OP mankytoes. And no joke I think that point about the onion (Mel vs Sam) is the most important part of asoiaf so far. I have mentioned it myself many times in similar threads. GRRM certainly didn't have Sam eat the good half of a rotten onion by accident. It is a clear statement that Mel's beliefs are basically wrong, and she is the chief proponent of fighting a war against the Others.

However, I don't think the Others are exactly the nuke equivalent for the ice side. I think the Others are the ice equivalent of Valyrians (and their pre-Valyrian ancestor Azor Ahai). And their nuke equivalent will also be a dragon(s), either an ice dragon or a dead dragon (I assume one of Dany's could die just like one of Aegon's died in the conquest), and then the dead dragon (skinchanged by Bran?) may or may not turn into an ice dragon as a result.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I essentially think they wanna break the curse.

So far i ultimately think that the Others are seeking to break the curse against them to become human again. I think the Others were born of the Night's King and the Corpse Queen who may both be dead. The Others need to warg a human, to mate with a live woman, possibly of a specific bloodline. Through this his spirit with be bound to a mortal human form again. Which i think he gave his seed and soul to her, and got trapped in these Other bodies. 

So Jon and Dany's abilities may be all he needs of them. The whole prince that was promised bit is a lie, to get the die rolling. Which is why we the readers and the in world characters are so confused and can find meaning in almost any of it. Neither Jon or Dany is the prophesied prince. If any one is, it'll be their baby. 

Jon dies, is reanimated like the army of the Dead and Cold Hands, (By who? Who's controlling him with access to his memories?), then uses his body to mate with Dany. Allowing who ever is warging Jon, to put his seed and spirit into Dany and her child. Who will be "Never Born"

Long and short of it.

Possible, but I don't think they are "cursed" at all. I just think they are mutated humans like Valyrians and squishers and giants and COTF. It would not be the first story GRRM has written about a mutated race of humans that lives underground and goes to war with the above-ground humans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

First, how do we know this is about stopping the Others for good? If the best they can do is banish them and set up a chain of greenseers to keep them back for 8 or so millennia, I think most people would count that as a victory.

Second, while Bran may not be as powerful for the magical side as the Children were (then again, he might, who knows?), humans are a much better ally for the physical side this time around. Last time, they had one magic, flaming steel sword that the Children may have had to teach them to make, and beyond that it was all bronze and wood. This time, they have millions of steel weapons, hundreds of Valyrian steel weapons, possibly hundreds of flaming weapons (you think the blood trick that just started working again for Beric and Thoros won't work for, say, the Fiery Hand?), and three dragons bonded with riders.

And it may not even be just, or even at all, a matter of a decisive victory vs. a marginal one, but something different they can do that wasn't even an option last time. People like Melisandre and Marwin are just the latest in 8000 years of studies in how to mix the different religious and magical traditions of the world. If Valyria's magic was far greater than anything seen before, then, even though it's now gone, there's still knowledge out there that didn't exist 8000 years ago. Who knows what that could mean? Maybe Benerro sacrifices the whole damn city of Volantis for some spell that restores the old seasons, which will melt the bridge between the North and Arcticos, and the Others have to flee before that happens or drown in the new ocean.

 

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Watch. The Watch was created during the Long Night by the Last Hero to fight the Others after he made a deal with the Children. How could that have happened before the Others even existed? Plus, Night's King was caught sacrificing to the Others. How did he do that before they existed? Also, Night's King took the Nightfort—an already existing castle on the already existing Wall—as his capital. Why would Brandon have built a Wall with magic spells to block the Others if the Others didn't exist yet?

The only way this works is if you assume everything Old Nan, etc. have told us is wrong. But if you assume it's all wrong, why believe there was a Night's King in the first place, or that the Watch is thousands of years old, or any of it?

True true true. Though it doesn't make sense. 

First, the walls foundations are made of stone. So there may have already been a wall before the Ice wall. We dont really know what's up with that.

Second. The Others drop out of now wheres during the long night with not a tale about how or why, other than these legends. 

The Last Hero, Azor Ahai, or who ever supposedly meets with the children (who's magic sword may have snapped). They then supposedly build a giant wall, while at war (Why dont the Others prevent this?), then from here, Brandon the Builder or some unknown person forms the Night's Watch. Then, we face the Others in an epic war for the Battle of the Dawn. Where we supposedly win. Maybe it was a truce, maybe not. 

Yet, supposedly with in 13 generations or so, the Others are still alive. One of them, a female (Only one ever mentioned) teams up with the L.C. and do what? Just rule there and sacrifice to the Others? Were the Others there? Did they fight too? And how did we win this war? Was it another supposed truce? I mean, we obviously didn't beat them, again.

So not a single part of the story told to us makes a lick of sense. Yet, we're supposed to just trust these stories at face value?

25 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think the legends are all mixed up. Not 100% wrong per se, but very distorted. I think the NK and Brandon the Builder are the same person. I think the first Others themselves may have been the original NW, and the oath was about the walls of Winterfell, the NK being the first King of Winter and progenitor of the Stark line, the Starks being the terrible half-human children that Old Nan spoke of. But that's admittedly a lot of speculation.

I basically agree with your OP mankytoes. And no joke I think that point about the onion (Mel vs Sam) is the most important part of asoiaf so far. I have mentioned it myself many times in similar threads. GRRM certainly didn't have Sam eat the good half of a rotten onion by accident. It is a clear statement that Mel's beliefs are basically wrong, and she is the chief proponent of fighting a war against the Others.

However, I don't think the Others are exactly the nuke equivalent for the ice side. I think the Others are the ice equivalent of Valyrians (and their pre-Valyrian ancestor Azor Ahai). And their nuke equivalent will also be a dragon(s), either an ice dragon or a dead dragon (I assume one of Dany's could die just like one of Aegon's died in the conquest), and then the dead dragon (skinchanged by Bran?) may or may not turn into an ice dragon as a result.

Possible, but I don't think they are "cursed" at all. I just think they are mutated humans like Valyrians and squishers and giants and COTF. It would not be the first story GRRM has written about a mutated race of humans that lives underground and goes to war with the above-ground humans.

I agree alot with you about the Dawn age/ Age of Heroes events.

And maybe. That's just my crackpot theory hahaha When trying to think about the motives of the Others and thinking of something other than just the obvious, revenge and the death of everything. Which, if told that, the humans would definitely just think they were evil and fight against them with everything they could. Pitting humans against the Others wouldn't be hard. 

But yea, the only thing outside the box i can think of is to break the curse. To be human again, born back into a body capable of skinchanging and magic and such. Kinda like the pirates in Pirates of the Caribbean. They still wanna plunder and be pirates, kinda like the Iron Born, but just wanna be human again. To taste, to feel, to die. Could definitely be wrong though. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think the legends are all mixed up. Not 100% wrong per se, but very distorted. I think the NK and Brandon the Builder are the same person. I think the first Others themselves may have been the original NW, and the oath was about the walls of Winterfell, the NK being the first King of Winter and progenitor of the Stark line, the Starks being the terrible half-human children that Old Nan spoke of. But that's admittedly a lot of speculation.

That goes well beyond speculation, into inventing a completely different story from whole cloth and then ignoring almost everything we're actually told because it doesn't fit.

Which is fine, your story is pretty cool—but inventing cool new stories is not the same thing as discussing GRRM's story.

Night's King was defeated by the King of Winter, who was the Stark in Winterfell, so he can't have also been the King of Winter. Night's King was the 13th LC, so whatever walls the Watch are about must have already existed before him. The half-human children are sired by Others, so they can't have existed before the Others did. If the Wall wasn't built at the start of the Watch, then we know nothing at all about the Wall. And so on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...