MinscS2

How good a swordsman is Jon actually?

76 posts in this topic

23 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Not even Ebola is that bad... :ack:

While I can rationalise a lot of their bad writing with Doylist explanations, like thinking fanservice x will be profitable, or saving a death 'til the end of the season when it could easily happen earlier on so that fans will W00T at the 'saved up shock', I legitimately have no cynical Doylist rationalisation for the 'bad pussy' line.

I'm not sure what kind of headspace you have to be in to think that such a line is remotely sexy. Maybe the same headspace Stephen King was in when he was writing Maximum Overdrive?

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20 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Not even Ebola is that bad... :ack:

Lol.

i actually don't think its bad at all.

wanting to ensure a proper end to the body feels like as good a reaction as any. The other option was just to leave it in the courtyard and that doesn't feel inherently more logical than the other option. 

Regarding Davos, both he and Stannis clearly thought very highly of Jon in Season 5 as a leader with potential. Davos had two options at that point. Burn the body and end up with no clear leader who could unite people from the North with the wildlings knowing that the army of the dead was a threat or take a punt and ask if Mel could help. Its not clear that the obvious choice was lets burn the body.

i guess my point is neither of these two instances did people make such a surprising decision that warranted a conversation to explain their thinking. Felt like two very pragmatic decisions.

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23 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Lol.

i actually don't think its bad at all.

wanting to ensure a proper end to the body feels like as good a reaction as any. The other option was just to leave it in the courtyard and that doesn't feel inherently more logical than the other option. 

Regarding Davos, both he and Stannis clearly thought very highly of Jon in Season 5 as a leader with potential. Davos had two options at that point. Burn the body and end up with no clear leader who could unite people from the North with the wildlings knowing that the army of the dead was a threat or take a punt and ask if Mel could help. Its not clear that the obvious choice was lets burn the body.

i guess my point is neither of these two instances did people make such a surprising decision that warranted a conversation to explain their thinking. Felt like two very pragmatic decisions.

I dunno, Jon wasn't that well-liked by Davos; the one time they'd spoken before that Jon was brushing off Stannis's offer, iirc. But yeah, as I said, it's not 'bad pussy' bad. As for the 'they figured they could take a punt', actually, they were protecting the body before Mel entered the room. Davos hadn't even suggested Mel do what she did until she was there, so... even though the point where Mel does her ritual onwards it kinda makes sense they'd defend the body, there's a while of them (and Alliser Thorne) awkwardly trying to negotiate for/protect the body because... well, I think it's because Kit Harrington corpse is sexy.

Alliser Thorne and Jon Snow had some hot belligerent sexual tension, amirite :P 

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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26 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Lol.

i actually don't think its bad at all.

I think you misquoted me - I said that the "you need the bad pussy"-comment was worse than Ebola. :P

I have no issues with them taking care of Jons body, etc.

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16 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I think you misquoted me - I said that the "you need the bad pussy"-comment was worse than Ebola. :P

I have no issues with them taking care of Jons body, etc.

Didn't mean to misquote. I was laughing at your comment then just going into why I didn't find the Jon stuff bad. I think we agreed. 

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Fair enough, and yes we probably do, as usual. :D

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23 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I dunno, Jon wasn't that well-liked by Davos; the one time they'd spoken before that Jon was brushing off Stannis's offer, iirc. But yeah, as I said, it's not 'bad pussy' bad. As for the 'they figured they could take a punt', actually, they were protecting the body before Mel entered the room. Davos hadn't even suggested Mel do what she did until she was there, so... even though the point where Mel does her ritual onwards it kinda makes sense they'd defend the body, there's a while of them (and Alliser Thorne) awkwardly trying to negotiate for/protect the body because... well, I think it's because Kit Harrington corpse is sexy.

Alliser Thorne and Jon Snow had some hot belligerent sexual tension, amirite :P 

Interesting. I didn't interpet it that way. 

I assumed by the point they were in the room it no longer had to do with protecting the body and was more a function of them being there, Thorne knowing they were Snow loyalists and at that point it was just or Thorne kills them or they survive situation. But maybe your right because why didn't they just leave Castle Black with Ed? 

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1 minute ago, jcmontea said:

Interesting. I didn't interpet it that way. 

I assumed by the point they were in the room it no longer had to do with protecting the body and was more a function of them being there, Thorne knowing they were Snow loyalists and at that point it was just or Thorne kills them or they survive situation. But maybe your right because why didn't they just leave Castle Black with Ed? 

The Snow loyalists thing is definitely true, but they also went to the effort of taking Jon's body out of the snow and hiding with him... for some reason.

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jon is supposed to be one of the best living swordsman from what I see. I do think that him killing that WW is not as big of an accomplishment as people think. The WW he killed was even more shocked then him when he blocked the blow with longclaw and then jon was just able to recover faster then the WW.

Edited by snow is the man

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6 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I do think that him killing that WW is not as big of an accomplishment as people think. The WW he killed was even more shocked then him when he blocked the blow with longclaw and then jon was just able to recover faster then the WW.

He's killed two WW's though. The one at Hardhome seemed about as surprised as Jon that Longclaw didn't shatter, but he also killed a second WW during their raid north of the wall, and he didn't really seem to have a hard time doing it.

With that said though, we don't really know how good WW's are at fighting, they might rely more on their magic immunity to mundane weaponry.

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16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

He's killed two WW's though. The one at Hardhome seemed about as surprised as Jon that Longclaw didn't shatter, but he also killed a second WW during their raid north of the wall, and he didn't really seem to have a hard time doing it.

With that said though, we don't really know how good WW's are at fighting, they might rely more on their magic immunity to mundane weaponry.

in the show yeah they seem to basically depend on their magic and such. And I forgot about him killing the second one.

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On 9/19/2017 at 1:22 PM, MinscS2 said:

Aye, Tormund is very loyal to Jon at this stage, I'd even say he's one of the few friends Jon has (the others being Dolorous Edd and Samwell), and one of the very few persons that can actually make Jon smile.

If Jon where to have a best man at his wedding, I'd say the chances of this being Tormund are high. :P  

Sam will definitely get the Best Man nod. But Tormund would without a doubt be a groomsman. Lol. 

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On 9/20/2017 at 3:12 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

Alliser Thorne and Jon Snow had some hot belligerent sexual tension, amirite :P 

Wonder what Alliser Thorne, a Targaryen loyalist who fought to the bitter end for the Mad King and was forced to take the Black by Tywin Lannister would think if he realized that the guy he had hated and killed wasn't a "traitor's bastard." Or even that he was now "sailing together" with the Targaryen Queen.:huh:

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39 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Wonder what Alliser Thorne, a Targaryen loyalist who fought to the bitter end for the Mad King and was forced to take the Black by Tywin Lannister would think if he realized that the guy he had hated and killed wasn't a "traitor's bastard." Or even that he was now "sailing together" with the Targaryen Queen.:huh:

He'd turn in his grave if he knew.

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

He'd turn in his grave if he knew.

His corpse will power the first Westerosi turbines.

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On 21.09.2017 at 0:39 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

which they squandered by making everyone 'good' suddenly super-protective of Jon's body and hiding him in the room instead of burning him as is customary.

I know that there's no way it was an intentional parallel, but this part made me think of how Alexander the Great's generals fought for his body after his death because apparently whoever had his body, also had the better claim to his empire. Again, I don't doubt that I'm seeing things in there, but I like it still :)

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Back to the title question:

In the show Jon Snow is a very good swordsman. He acts as trainer in the Night watch and is respected by Tormund. He has earned the respect of Mormont who gives his family sword to him. He survives a lot of battles. Ramsays story is meant seriously, he does not dare to fight Jon.

Whatever the book says, in the show we are made to believe he is excellent.

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Well, as of this video, Jon has the second highest kill tally in the show, probably the highest in direct combat. The highest is Bronn, in this video.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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I think Jon is a good swordsman in the show. There are obviously better, but he is pretty good. I can't remember in the books if he is or not, but I feel like he was not bad. 

At the wall he is also training people that have no formal training what so ever. Even as a bastard, I assume he had some of the "top of the line" training. So it really shows how good he is, or just better trained I guess.

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Just my opinion but based on what I have seen (and realizing that Jon is as good as the writers need him to be) he definitely could not have won against pre-amputee Jaime.  He would have also lost to the Clegane Boys, Sylvio would have sliced and diced him.  I don't think that he would have stood a chance against Sir Arthur Dane and probably would have lost to Barristan Selmy in his prime.  He might not even have been as good as Eddard Stark. 

 

To take it outside of Westeros and ASOIAF I think that  you would have had to go deep into the Round Table before you found someone he could actually beat.  Of course any of Dumas' Four Musketeers would have easily taken Jon's Lunch Money, as would Rochfort.  (I include Dumas because that is essentially the fencing that Silvio is teaching Arya). A Japanese samurai would also probably have won.  

 

Frankly I was surprised at what Ramsay said about Jon's skill as nothing that I have seen so far in the series has shown Jon to be particularly outstanding.  He always seems to win by luck, he is always rescued at the last second.  

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