falcotron

What's the Dayne-Valyrian connection theory?

59 posts in this topic

A lot of people on this forum throw out the idea that the Daynes and the Valyrians have "many mysterious similarities", and go on to propose crackpot theories about the Daynes being the ancestors of all the Valyrians, or being Valyrians who came to Westeros long before the Doom (which requires shuffling around the timeline so Valyria was founded before the First Men migrated, but crackpotters love shuffling timelines), etc.

But what are these many mysterious similarities?

They aren't dragonriders, they don't have dragon dreams, they don't have a history of mass slave-driven blood magic, etc.

Ashara and Gerold—and nobody else of their generation, and no other Daynes we've been told of—have purple eyes.

Gerold—and nobody else—also has silver-and-black striped hair (assuming he doesn't dye it). None of the Daynes have any other Targaryen features. 

That's all the similarities we know of.

And there's nothing mysterious about that. For all we know, the two of them just have a Martell grandmother who's descended from Daeron II, or some random Velaryon or Essosi grandmother with purple eyes, or they just have the rare purple eyes that randomly pop up in all races on Planetos—the dragonlord families of Valyria had them a lot more often (for reasons which could be magical, but also make sense from simple genetics and ethology based on what we've been told), but not exclusively.

And of course when GRRM was specifically asked whether Ashara's violet eyes means she's descended from Daeron II or some other Valyrian, he said: "… look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms…"

In other words, whether Ashara is descended from Daeron or not (and he told Ran he'd check his notes on that, but apparently never did), her purple eyes are not a mystery.

And he followed up with (still talking about the Daynes): "If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc."

In other words, the Dayne name is a clue that they're a First Men family, which fits with everything else we've been told in everything from novels to other SSMs.

So, is there anything that contradicts all that, or just any evidence looking for an explanation, or is the whole idea based on "Daynes are mysterious, and therefore they must be secret Targaryens"?

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I believe that Daynes and Starks both come from Brandon of the Bloody Blade (original AA) and Rose of the Red Lake being First Men family.

There are high chances that Targaryens married into Dayne familly. Maybe one of Egg's sisters or a child of Daenerys. Nothing more.

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The Daynes have Valyrian features. To deny that is to deny the text. However, as Martin made clear, just as not everyone who has blue eyes are Swedish, so not everyone with platinum blond hair and purple eyes are Valyrians. I think he has stated outhright in some quote that the Daynes are not of Valyrian descent. But that doesn't mean that they don't look like Valyrians.

Personally, I think that may become relevant at some point when we learn that some Dayne fathered some bastards on some royal princess, who was then able to pass them off as trueborn Targaryens. And that, in the end, may be the only plot purpose of the Daynes' Valyrian features

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Probably GRRM's fault for telling that their 10000 year old sword has a lot of the characteristics of Valyrian steel (with the exception of colour) and naming Arthur, Ashara, Dawn and Sword of the Morning so many times.

They seem to have a significant role in the overall story, but we don't have many clues why.

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Probably GRRM's fault for telling that their 10000 year old sword has a lot of the characteristics of Valyrian steel

This. And the weird thing he said about their house words being "spoilers" so he couldn't tell anyone. There's something going on with House Dayne. It's not just another First Men house.

Neither, for that matter, is Hightower.

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3 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

And the weird thing he said about their house words being "spoilers" so he couldn't tell anyone.

Actually this is a common misconception based on a joke of Ran. GRRM told him the Dayne words once, but was not really happy with them, so he did not want Ran to publish them. When someone asked Ran about that, he replied something like 'Probably GRRM thought the words to be too spoilerish', but later he admitted, that he was not serious.

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It's sort of funny that it seems like the Dayne genes are strong enough to still carry purple eyes, if they did start out with purple eyes. Going by what Jorah said about Dany looking like Lynesse, I've actually wondered if the mother of Leyton Hightower's many children wasn't a Dayne. 

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11 hours ago, falcotron said:

Ashara and Gerold—and nobody else of their generation, and no other Daynes we've been told of—have purple eyes.

1. I agree that the Daynes are unlikely to be "Valyrian"--the Daynes really, really seem to predate the Valyrian empire.

2. But we do have one more purple-eyed Dayne in the books: Edric:

Quote

He doesn't like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey. Storm, Arya VIII

blue eyes so dark they looked almost purple--sounds like "indigo" to me. Like Rhaegar's eyes in Dany's vision.

So, out of the 5 named Daynes in the novels, the only three for whom we have eye color (no mention of Arthur or Allyria's eyes), all three have purplish eyes.

3. All that said:

6 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

Decended from members of the Golden Empire of the Dawn, possibly along wit House Hightower. So, proto-Valyrians.

This seems very likely.

We even have Dany's vision of the ghosts with the sword of pale fire--which REALLY sounds like Dawn.

But the ghosts have eyes of different jeweled colors.

Seems like the Valyrians and the Daynes are all from a much older root. Great Empire of the Dawn with their Emperors with jewel names would work and fit really well.

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7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Daynes have Valyrian features. To deny that is to deny the text.

If there's any more evidence in the text that "Daynes have Valyrian features" than Ashara's and Gerold's eyes and maybe Gerold's hair, what is it? That's exactly what my question is. People seem to believe that there's textual evidence for more than that, but nobody can point to it.

7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

However, as Martin made clear, just as not everyone who has blue eyes are Swedish, so not everyone with platinum blond hair and purple eyes are Valyrians. I think he has stated outhright in some quote that the Daynes are not of Valyrian descent. But that doesn't mean that they don't look like Valyrians.

You mean the quote that I gave, with a link to the source, in the question that you're responding to?

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7 hours ago, Tucu said:

Probably GRRM's fault for telling that their 10000 year old sword has a lot of the characteristics of Valyrian steel (with the exception of colour) and naming Arthur, Ashara, Dawn and Sword of the Morning so many times.

They seem to have a significant role in the overall story, but we don't have many clues why.

What characteristics of Valyrian steel does Dawn have, other than being really sharp?

As for the rest, I agree, they do seem to have a significant role in the overall story, but that isn't evidence that they're descended from Valyrians, or that Valyrians are descended from Daynes, or anything else.

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6 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

There's something going on with House Dayne. It's not just another First Men house.

Neither, for that matter, is Hightower.

I don't understand the connection there. There's something going on with the Starks. Does that mean they're not First Men? No, it means they're a special First Men house.

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8 minutes ago, falcotron said:

What characteristics of Valyrian steel does Dawn have, other than being really sharp?

The world book says

Quote

Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

 

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11 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

Decended from members of the Golden Empire of the Dawn, possibly along wit House Hightower. So, proto-Valyrians.

This

OP should read LML's theories on this

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16 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

OP should read LML's theories on this

I've read LmL's theories. He's built a mountain of tinfoil that's internally self-consistent, and interesting, but has very little connection to ASoIaF.

At any rate, I'm not asking what your favorite tinfoil is for solving this alleged mystery, I'm asking what evidence people have for thinking there's a mystery to solve in the first place.

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12 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

Decended from members of the Golden Empire of the Dawn, possibly along wit House Hightower. So, proto-Valyrians.

:agree:

There had to have been a split at some point, possibly when the Bloodstone Emperor rose against his sister the Amethyst Empress, or even before if BSE's followers wanted to establish an outpost (you know, in case things went south).

The base of the High Tower at Oldtown predates the Firstmen. Proto-Valyrians could easily have come over the water, to whatever port later became Oldtown.

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55 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I've read LmL's theories. He's built a mountain of tinfoil that's internally self-consistent, and interesting, but has very little connection to ASoIaF.

I can't disagree with that (even though I would love for some of his theories to bear out).  I still think the idea of the Daynes and Battle Isle having some connection to a proto-Valyrian civilization makes a lot of sense.

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3 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

I can't disagree with that (even though I would love for some of his theories to bear out).

I sometimes wish LmL would stop writing what amounts to ASoIaF fan fiction in essay form and invent his own fantasy world instead. I would maybe like him to do a little more research on real-world myths instead of relying on Frazer and Campbell nonsense, but he's definitely got the talent to build a cohesive and compelling mythology, and it might be nice to actually read a story set among that mythology instead of watching people try desperately to pretend that's what we're already reading by derailing every ASoIaF thread into a discussion of their favorite bits of LmL.

3 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

I still think the idea of the Daynes and Battle Isle having some connection to a proto-Valyrian civilization makes a lot of sense.

I think the story we hear in the books—that the Valyrians were just semi-nomadic pastoralists living around Valyria for millennia before discovering volcanos and dragon magic—works a lot better than assuming with no evidence that they're migrants who moved there by traveling 3/4ths of the way around the world.

The ancient dragonlords that seem to be even older than, and from beyond the borders of, the Empire of the Dawn really are older and beyond their borders and unconnected to them, just as the Deep Ones, the Mazemakers, etc. are also older and unconnected. The Valyrians could have recovered, or been given, some of their ancient magic without having to be descendants of them—in fact, the legend everyone is basing all this tinfoil off explicitly says that's what happened. And there's no reason to believe the dragonlords' purple eyes connect them up to some ancient civilization that we've never even heard of having purple eyes in the first place; they're either a side effect of magic, or just the natural result of millennia of 40 powerful families marrying within their own social stratum. And so on.

And the explanation for things like Hightower is most likely the same as in all the Lovecraftian weird tales that inspired GRRM, and the same as the mazes of Lorath, etc.—ancient civilizations that have since vanished with no trace but some bizarre archeology and magical artifacts, many of which weren't even human. That's far more interesting than them all being the ancestors of the Valyrians so there's only one interesting culture in the history of the world.  I just don't get this mania for trying to take all of these interesting separate stories and reducing them to just one less interesting story.

But anyway, this is all way off topic.

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You do know the text doesn't out right say anything really, ever, about anything. You literally have to do mental gymnastics for most ASOIAF mysteries. 

Look at the cats paw and the gymnastics Tyrion has to go through to arrive to Joffery having sent the Cats Paw. To which some people still disagree to.

R+L=J?   Where is that clearly stated in the books? It never say's Lyanna loved Rhaegar or even liked him. She liked a song he sang, so what. Im a musician, i wish it was that easy. All the books ever say is that Rhaegar kidnapped her and raped her. In fact there is still many people who debate against R+L=J. 

I mean, if the books really laid it out the easily, it'd be like most books, and there wouldn't be so many people who loved it. 

You literally have to be smart and start making logical deductions and assumptions just like a detective, and except the fact that your gonna make errors, find new evidence to change your ideas, or look at things in a new light you hadn't before. Even for the basic mysteries of ASOIAF, let alone the deeper ones. 

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I think most of it has been covered in this thread now.

Here's how I would summarize it though...

- Daynes are mentioned a lot/seem to play important roles. Despite that so far we have very little info on them, making them "mysterious" but also leaving room to fill in those massive gaps with anything you'd like.

- Daynes have some clear similarities to the Targaryens (appearance).

- Daynes have some clear connections with the Starks (history, long night).

This combination makes the Daynes ripe for rampant speculation.

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