Season 8 potential characters couple pairings

[Meera of Tarth]

41 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Arya dislikes gender norms and romantic cliches, but she's capable of feeling attraction and loving people, she can do that on her own terms.

"He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince."

Exactly, and it's clear in the show as well.

She rejects the oppression of women, she wants women to have the possibility of doing things that men do, it's not that she rejects what both men and women experience, which is falling in love. On the contrary, she wants more freedom, not less.

[falcotron]

3 hours ago, Newstar said:

As it is, I find speculation assuming that Sansa--who was repeatedly raped by Ramsay so that she would birth an heir--or Arya--who has never shown any interest in romance and has always wanted to buck gender expectations--MUST settle down and become brood mares...highly unpleasant.

Sansa going from wanting to be a dutiful wife to some king or great lord and pump out princes for him, to becoming a strong ruler in her own right with a strong man to assist her rather than rule over her, that's not a regression.

And her deciding, as ruler, to produce an heir for the good of the realm, that's not a regression either. Nobody thinks Jon Arryn was a stud horse because he made that decision for the good of his realm, and nobody will think Sansa is a brood mare if she does the same.

3 hours ago, Newstar said:

It's also a false assumption that Sansa and/or Arya need to have kids or else House Stark is doomed. If Sansa ends up as an Elizabeth I figure, she can do what Elizabeth I did and designate one of Jon and Dany's children (assuming they have more than one) as her heir, which is what is supposed to happen with Harry the Heir if Sweetrobin dies in the books. It's not the big crisis others are making it out to be.

No, it really is a big crisis. Having an heir is a really big deal in a feudal society. It's one of the primary duties of any ruling lord, and no less so for a ruling lady. That's why Jon Arryn spent decades trying to produce one, and took a third wife that he didn't want and at the same time felt guilty over. Look at Halys Hornwood's succession. Or even Roose Bolton's. Or Robert Baratheon's, of course. Or Beren Stark's—we don't know how that's going to go, but the fact that GRRM is writing a whole novella around that crisis implies that it's a crisis.

The only reason the Vale has a solution is that the lords there had time to prepare for the problem, and were willing to work together to solve it themselves. And the only reason they were able to do so is that the lords who were worried about giving more power to the Waynwoods were even more worried about the succession having to be taken to the crown when they weren't even sure who'd be wearing that crown. That's not business as usual, that's a huge diplomatic success in making the best of a scary situation.

[greensleeves]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Why not try an actual argument?

Your gender is actually relevant to the sexism you're displaying in this argument.

You're a man trying to define and limit what women with certain experiences and preferences are capable of:

'Women who are raped can't fall in love and choose to have families.'

'Women who have children must be subservient.'

'Tomboys aren't interested in romance.'

Women contain multitudes and are not limited by the stereotypes you're trying to place on us. Educating you about that is not my problem.

Listen, I don't know that Arya and Sansa will end up with anyone. I'm not opposing your conclusion. I'm opposing the arguments you are using to get there: They are bad.

You could argue that the all-male writing team will have sexist assumptions similar to your own and will enforce them. That would at least be coherent.

[darmody]

On 9/16/2017 at 8:16 AM, Dornishwoman's Husband said:

Also, most of you probably think it would be dumb that Arya dies as a virgin.

I used to think it would be sad if she dies young, though I care less now because she's a psycho killer. (She kills killers, but Dexter did that, too, and I wouldn't have cared if Dexter died young. He wasn't a Stark, though.) I'd feel bad for the other Starks if Arya died now that they know she survived all this time. 

Her being a virgin has nothing to do with it for me. Thinking back to the first time I had sex, there was like zero difference in me before and after. (My exact thought at the time, if I recall correctly, was "That's it? What's the big deal?" Though it ended up mattering more to me later.) If you said it would be "dumb" for her to die without falling in love, I can see that. 

It would be different if she wanted to have kids. I'd feel sorry she never got them. You kinda have to not be a virgin to have kids. (I don't think people are artificially inseminated in Westeros.) But I don't think Arya was born to be a mommy, or ever wanted to be. 

[darmody]

On 9/18/2017 at 2:23 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Brienne and Jaime is also much expected on the book's side. But the show seems to rather favor Brienne and Tormund.

Tormund's lust is played for jokes, and it's not reciprocal. There are obviously feelings shared by both Jaime and Brienne, though I don't recall them showing physical attraction on his side. But he did explicitly say he'd give her a go back when they first met, as I recall, so he must be attracted on some level. She is blonde, and we know that's his type. 

Seriously though, the Jaime/Brienne relationship hasn't been been tender or sentimental for a few seasons. We see them together once a season now, and last episode it was all about her being his moral compass. Tormund, on the other hand, can't stop talking about making babies with her. I don't know if we saw him this year without him bringing her up at least once. But I don't think that negates the relationship built up between Jaime and Brienne over Seasons Two-Four. 

[Angel Eyes]

43 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Sansa going from wanting to be a dutiful wife to some king or great lord and pump out princes for him, to becoming a strong ruler in her own right with a strong man to assist her rather than rule over her, that's not a regression.

And her deciding, as ruler, to produce an heir for the good of the realm, that's not a regression either. Nobody thinks Jon Arryn was a stud horse because he made that decision for the good of his realm, and nobody will think Sansa is a brood mare if she does the same.

No, it really is a big crisis. Having an heir is a really big deal in a feudal society. It's one of the primary duties of any ruling lord, and no less so for a ruling lady. That's why Jon Arryn spent decades trying to produce one, and took a third wife that he didn't want and at the same time felt guilty over. Look at Halys Hornwood's succession. Or even Roose Bolton's. Or Robert Baratheon's, of course. Or Beren Stark's—we don't know how that's going to go, but the fact that GRRM is writing a whole novella around that crisis implies that it's a crisis.

The only reason the Vale has a solution is that the lords there had time to prepare for the problem, and were willing to work together to solve it themselves. And the only reason they were able to do so is that the lords who were worried about giving more power to the Waynwoods were even more worried about the succession having to be taken to the crown when they weren't even sure who'd be wearing that crown. That's not business as usual, that's a huge diplomatic success in making the best of a scary situation.

Two words: Double Standard.

[darmody]

On 9/20/2017 at 0:16 PM, Kajjo said:

We have no indication at all that Arya has romantic feelings or sexual interest at all.

She was shown to have strong feelings for him when she learned he was joining the Brotherhood, though they could have been friendly feelings.

There was an indication she was attracted to him when she was checking him out while he was shirtless. 

None of which is conclusive, and she could be a lesbian for all I know. But there were potential hints, and fans don't need much--if any--evidence to speculate on relationships between characters. There's more fan-level evidence that Arya liked Gendry "that way" than for many other potential "ships." 

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, darmody said:

 

Seriously though, the Jaime/Brienne relationship hasn't been been tender or sentimental for a few seasons. We see them together once a season now, and last episode it was all about her being his moral compass. Tormund, on the other hand, can't stop talking about making babies with her. I don't know if we saw him this year without him bringing her up at least once. But I don't think that negates the relationship built up between Jaime and Brienne over Seasons Two-Four. 

Last season was full of sentimental tones. From the "it's yours, it will always be yours" (where both Nik and the director agreed it had the romantic meaning....it's "his heart") to the gazes she gives him from the hill, or their goodbye scenes that imitate the ones from previous seasons. Not to mention that season 5 there was him looking with fascination at Tarth when he is told that's the Sapphire Isle and not before. I agree with this season though, but even with the awful dialogue and development of Jaime they made him use the words of Brienne to try to convince Cersei. And the result of these words were him finally leaving her and go North, where Brienne will be.

[falcotron]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Two words: Double Standard.

Sorry, who has a double standard, and over what?

I don't see any double standard in me treating Sansa the same as Jon Arryn. And, while I disagree with Newstar, I don't think it's necessarily because he's applying a double standard—he's trying to distinguish Sansa from Dany, which isn't a sexist double standard, and he doesn't seem to be a rabid hater or fanatic of either.

Or are you suggesting that I'm wrong about what the show could do because D&D, or Hollywood in general, have a double standard, so they just can't see Sansa's story as similar to Jon's? If so, it seems like it would just mean they might give Sansa the same ending but for the wrong reason—which I'll admit is possible, but, since the show rarely gives the reasons for anything, we can all blissfully pretend they did it for the right one, out of a real understanding of their characters.

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Sorry, who has a double standard, and over what?

I don't see any double standard in me treating Sansa the same as Jon Arryn. And, while I disagree with Newstar, I don't think it's necessarily because he's applying a double standard—he's trying to distinguish Sansa from Dany, which isn't a sexist double standard, and he doesn't seem to be a rabid hater or fanatic of either.

Or are you suggesting that I'm wrong about what the show could do because D&D, or Hollywood in general, have a double standard, so they just can't see Sansa's story as similar to Jon's? If so, it seems like it would just mean they might give Sansa the same ending but for the wrong reason—which I'll admit is possible, but, since the show rarely gives the reasons for anything, we can all blissfully pretend they did it for the right one, out of a real understanding of their characters.

About Jon Arryn not being seen as a stud horse. On the other hand, Walder Frey seems to think there's one, for different reasons. Cersei at one point says she doesn't want to be pawned off like a brood mare.

"People snigger when I marry a young girl, but who said a word when Jon Arryn married that little Tully bitch?"

[darmody]

5 hours ago, Newstar said:

I find speculation assuming that Sansa--who was repeatedly raped by Ramsay so that she would birth an heir--or Arya--who has never shown any interest in romance and has always wanted to buck gender expectations--MUST settle down and become brood mares...highly unpleasant.

No one's saying she has to be a brood mare, anymore than anyone who says they want Sansa to be a Strong, Independent Woman who doesn't need a man are saying she has to be doomed to a life of being a crazy cat lady. 

I would prefer Sansa end the series as Lady of Winterfell and Wardeness of the North, with a loving husband and happy family to carry on the Stark name. The fact that she got brutalized by Ramsey shouldn't mean her childhood dream of making babies should be abandoned. I'd like to see it fulfilled with a man who's worthy of her, which Joffrey obviously wasn't. 

Which doesn't mean a Strong, Independent Woman storyline couldn't be carried off. Plenty of important ladies never got married or had kids. I just personally would prefer Joffrey, Tyrion, and Ramsey not ruin it for her. 

[falcotron]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

About Jon Arryn not being seen as a stud horse. 

You mean by Westerosi society, by the viewers/readers, or by D&D/GRRM?

If you mean the first one, that's kind of the point. Sansa deciding that she's the same as Jon Arryn, even if her society doesn't see it that way—and she didn't as a little girl—would be a fulfillment of her character growth.

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, falcotron said:

You mean by Westerosi society, by the viewers/readers, or by D&D/GRRM?

If you mean the first one, that's kind of the point. Sansa deciding that she's the same as Jon Arryn, even if her society doesn't see it that way—and she didn't as a little girl—would be a fulfillment of her character growth.

I hadn't thought about that part. Maybe all three?

[Newstar]

2 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

It's not so black and white, Sansa doesn't want to get married for political reasons but she wants to start her own family and die of old age, will she get everything she wants? No, but that doesn't stop her from wanting it. 

TV Sansa definitely doesn't want to remarry and would much rather run Winterfell unimpeded; in Season 7, it's strongly implied that she would much rather run Winterfell with Jon out of the way and is even briefly tempted by the prospect of a coup. And if her desire for power and control means that she secretly wishes she were rid of Jon of all people, who has only ever tried to protect and defend her, whom she unquestionably loves, and whom she considers further from Joffrey than anyone she has ever met, what shot does anyone else have? 

 

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ETA: Sansa wasn't raped in the books, but you can be a rape survivor and still have a partner, kids, etc, it doesn't have to define your life.

It doesn't have to, but in Sansa's case, it obviously does. I'm guessing the writers are working backwards from Book Sansa's endgame--steely, single Elizabeth I-style Lady of Winterfell--and using the Ramsay marriage and everything that went with it to explain her attitude. Gross, sure, but not beyond D&D.

 

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

That's the end I would favor and would make a lot of sense. I hope so very much.

Arya sailing into the sunset would be a perfect ending, I think.

 

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

snip

You're assuming that Sansa will fall in love and get married at some point in the future and reasoning backwards from there, and it's terrible reasoning. There's nothing in the show to suggest that Sansa is going to fall in love or has any interest in remarrying at all. In fact, Season 7 suggests quite the opposite, that Sansa is increasingly interested in running things herself and hates the idea of anyone, even someone kind and decent who loves her, getting in the way. Season 7 is also setting up characters' endgames: Sansa as the endgame LOW who rules by herself without male interference is looking like a lock.

 

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You have wrong misconceptions about what having interest in romance and being in love is, as well as what being a knight means for Arya.

Well, no. I pay attention to the show and don't try to second-guess characters when they make their opinions and attitudes clear. 

 

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In the show, in fact, Arya has never said to herself she is not into romance.

And Tyrion has never said to himself that he's done with prostitutes and with women in general because Shae fucked him up real good, and Sansa has never said to herself that she's never going to let a man be in a position to control her ever again if she can help it. We know it, though, just as we know that Arya's not into romance and marriage. How? By watching the show and paying attention to what the characters actually say and do, instead of projecting fantasies on to them about how they should be acting and feeling. 

I think your problem is that you're not watching the show, you're watching the version of the show you want to see--based on what you think will happen and reasoning backwards from there--and ignoring what's actually going on. That way lies guaranteed disappointment, as the great Jonsa Shipper Meltdown of 2017 showed. The show is what it is. The characters and their relationships are what they are. If you don't like it? For everything else, there's fanfic.

 

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

Sansa going from wanting to be a dutiful wife to some king or great lord and pump out princes for him, to becoming a strong ruler in her own right with a strong man to assist her rather than rule over her, that's not a regression.

Season 7 Sansa doesn't want a man to assist her. She doesn't want a man in the picture at all, even a strong, kind man like Jon who would never hurt her, because said man can override her, refuse to listen to her, and make a botch of things. Given her experiences, that is an entirely sensible attitude.

 

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And her deciding, as ruler, to produce an heir for the good of the realm, that's not a regression either. 

You're reasoning backwards: when Sansa falls in love and gets married, she'll decide to produce an heir, blah blah blah. All indications are that Sansa is never going to get there due to her traumatic experiences and the lessons she has learned, and she will actively resist any attempts to force her into that corner. (Not that Jon or Dany would press the point.)

 

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No, it really is a big crisis.

Not under the circumstances. As I said, the Elizabeth I/James I solution works just fine. 

 

1 hour ago, greensleeves said:

snip

If you can't make your point without making personal attacks, maybe cool down and try again later.

[Angel Eyes]

7 minutes ago, Newstar said:

TV Sansa definitely doesn't want to remarry and would much rather run Winterfell unimpeded; in Season 7, it's strongly implied that she would much rather run Winterfell with Jon out of the way and is even briefly tempted by the prospect of a coup. And if her desire for power and control means that she secretly wishes she were rid of Jon of all people, who has only ever tried to protect and defend her, whom she unquestionably loves, and whom she considers further from Joffrey than anyone she has ever met, what shot does anyone else have? 

 

It doesn't have to, but in Sansa's case, it obviously does. I'm guessing the writers are working backwards from Book Sansa's endgame--steely, single Elizabeth I-style Lady of Winterfell--and using the Ramsay marriage and everything that went with it to explain her attitude. Gross, sure, but not beyond D&D.

 

Arya sailing into the sunset would be a perfect ending, I think.

 

You're assuming that Sansa will fall in love and get married at some point in the future and reasoning backwards from there, and it's terrible reasoning. There's nothing in the show to suggest that Sansa is going to fall in love or has any interest in remarrying at all. In fact, Season 7 suggests quite the opposite, that Sansa is increasingly interested in running things herself and hates the idea of anyone, even someone kind and decent who loves her, getting in the way. Season 7 is also setting up characters' endgames: Sansa as the endgame LOW who rules by herself without male interference is looking like a lock.

 

Well, no. I pay attention to the show and don't try to second-guess characters when they make their opinions and attitudes clear. 

 

And Tyrion has never said to himself that he's done with prostitutes and with women in general because Shae fucked him up real good, and Sansa has never said to herself that she's never going to let a man be in a position to control her ever again if she can help it. We know it, though, just as we know that Arya's not into romance and marriage. How? By watching the show and paying attention to what the characters actually say and do, instead of projecting fantasies on to them about how they should be acting and feeling. 

I think your problem is that you're not watching the show, you're watching the version of the show you want to see--based on what you think will happen and reasoning backwards from there--and ignoring what's actually going on. That way lies guaranteed disappointment, as the great Jonsa Shipper Meltdown of 2017 showed. The show is what it is. The characters and their relationships are what they are. For everything else, there's fanfic.

 

 

Season 7 Sansa doesn't want a man to assist her. She doesn't want a man in the picture at all, even a strong, kind man like Jon who would never hurt her, because said man can override her, refuse to listen to her, and make a botch of things. Given her experiences, that is an entirely sensible attitude.

 

You're reasoning backwards: when Sansa falls in love and gets married, she'll decide to produce an heir, blah blah blah. All indications are that Sansa is never going to get there due to her traumatic experiences and the lessons she has learned, and she will actively resist any attempts to force her into that corner. (Not that Jon or Dany would press the point.)

 

Not under the circumstances. As I said, the Elizabeth I/James I solution works just fine. 

 

If you can't make your point without making personal attacks, maybe cool down and try again later.

Well, then who's left to rule Winterfell when Sansa dies? We don't know how many children Jon and Daenerys can have, don't know how Arya feels about marrying, while Bran's the Three Eyed Raven and he was already suspect since he got paralyzed and he pushed away the only girl he's been around who wasn't his sister. The Northern lords will only accept a Stark.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and we're running out of Starks.

[darmody]

5 hours ago, Newstar said:

...MUST settle down and become brood mares...highly unpleasant. Both Stark sisters have been compared to Cersei at various points in the show, and I think at this point they would react about as well to being forced into a life they didn't want as Cersei did.

What life did Cersei want? To be married to her brother? 

I know, she wanted a husband who wasn't a drunk who sired cities-full of bastards. But thems the breaks. 

Why is "MUST" only a bad word for female characters and their life choices? Arya, who made little sense last season, made perhaps least sense of all when she went on to Sansa (in the same scene where she implicitly threatened to cut off Sansa's face) about how girls don't get to choose what they want to be. Uh, hello. Boys in Westeros don't, either. More than girls, admittedly. But boys have family obligations, too. Like the obligation to go off and die in war. If they're not up to that, they're Sam Tarly, the pariah. 

Male obligations don't end at the battlefield, but extend into marriage and baby-making, as well. Robb was penned in by duty. He doomed the family (if it wasn't doomed already) by selfishly choosing to marry for love instead of marrying one of the Frey girls. 

Sansa, whether she likes it or not, bears the responsibility of carrying on the Stark blood, given Robb and Rickon (who actually existed, by the way) are dead and Bran is a tree or a bird or whatever. Arya may be a lost cause and Jon is a Targaryen. Why shouldn't she feel that burden? 

Wouldn't it be a good thing for her to feel obligated to poor dead Ned to keep on Starking, rather than fulfill her selfish desire like that paragon of virtue, Cersei Lannister? 

[Cridefea]

28 minutes ago, darmody said:

There are obviously feelings shared by both Jaime and Brienne, though I don't recall them showing physical attraction on his side. But he did explicitly say he'd give her a go back when they first met, as I recall, so he must be attracted on some level. She is blonde, and we know that's his type. 

you mean this (first 40 s)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec2blDrHUlg

 

Also Bronn said Jaime would fuck her and teases him for liking only very blond women.

[falcotron]

9 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I think your problem is that you're not watching the show, you're watching the version of the show you want to see--based on what you think will happen and reasoning backwards from there--and ignoring what's actually going on.

I think you're doing the same thing. (Of course we all do that to some extent.)

For most of the season, Sansa is distant even from her own family, and she's even wearing "don't touch me" clothes, in stark contrast to her femme fatale (or, rather, "I went to Hot Topic before going to a Mittelalter festival"…) look before the Ramsay ordeal. But at the end of the last episode, once she's overcome Littlefinger, she's dressed like Maege Mormont's boss and hanging out casually with her sister. There's a huge change, which I think you've only missed because you were convinced by the rest of the season that S7 Sansa is endgame Sansa, and have reasoned backward from there.

And really, reasoning backward is part of any objective look at the show. There are multiple ways things might turn out, and part of guessing which ones are most likely is reasoning backward from each one to see if they make sense.

I can see a way that Sansa as a feudal Lord but also a mother makes sense. (That doesn't require her to fall in love, although, this being Hollywood, and the end of the story, it probably would.) I can also see a way that Sansa as an icy and impersonal queen makes sense. I can't see a way that Sansa becoming a dutiful wife or some lord in another realm makes sense. So, I think it's going to be one of the first two.

You're right that people who want one particular ending—or who just expect one particular ending because they don't want to change the conclusion they jumped to—stop after finding out that their ending makes sense, without looking at the others. But I think you're one of those people. They're saying that #1 is possible and therefore it must be #1, you're saying that #2 is possible and therefore it must be #2, but in reality both #1 and #2 are possible, so we need to look for more clues to distinguish between them.

9 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Not under the circumstances. As I said, the Elizabeth I/James I solution works just fine.

Does it? Sansa has a half-brother who will only have a spare heir if he manages to have two sons, when even a first child is apparently a miracle. She's also got a sister who may well have no children, and a brother who probably can't have any. That's hardly a secure position to be in for the succession.

[greensleeves]

52 minutes ago, Newstar said:

If you can't make your point without making personal attacks, maybe cool down and try again later.

Maybe respond to criticisms with an honest analysis of your words.

We exist in a sexist society so we all have to make an effort to free ourselves from sexist assumptions (even self-declared feminists). Try to recognize your own biases and weaknesses.

Other things to avoid: Responding to criticisms of sexism by telling a woman she's being overly emotional and should be quiet.

[Meera of Tarth]

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

You're assuming that Sansa will fall in love and get married at some point in the future and reasoning backwards from there, and it's terrible reasoning. There's nothing in the show to suggest that Sansa is going to fall in love or has any interest in remarrying at all. In fact, Season 7 suggests quite the opposite, that Sansa is increasingly interested in running things herself and hates the idea of anyone, even someone kind and decent who loves her, getting in the way. Season 7 is also setting up characters' endgames: Sansa as the endgame LOW who rules by herself without male interference is looking like a lock.

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reply to another poster, same issue:

You're reasoning backwards: when Sansa falls in love and gets married, she'll decide to produce an heir, blah blah blah. All indications are that Sansa is never going to get there due to her traumatic experiences and the lessons she has learned, and she will actively resist any attempts to force her into that corner. (Not that Jon or Dany would press the point.)

 

Wrong. I will tell you what terrible reasoning is

-Terrible reasoning is assuming that Sansa won't fall in love despite having a love story in development with Sandor in the books (that is subtlety and directly hinted in the show but you fail to recognise it despite of the fact I've posted videos about it that suggest it's at least a plausible thing that will need to have a resolution..) and not providing the similar things so as to prove that my arguments is wrong. Example: I show you the dialogue of LF/San etc but you don't show me actual quotes or videos that prove your argument.

-Terrible reasoning is stating that she can't have a love story 

• because she was raped (which is something that the show invented) and...
  • going further with this invention from the show, saying that rape victims can't fall in love bc you decide so, which is something that doesn't necessarily apply to reality or fiction 
  • going further with this invention from the show, despite of the fact that the show showing us how she has overcome that Dark past over and over again, even killing both her sadist raper and LF and she is stronger than ever

-Terrible reasoning is not providing actual quotes of Sansa saying that she rejects love, marriage or children but insisting that this will be the case (while others try to prove their points with ACTUAL QUOTES).

 

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Well, no. I pay attention to the show and don't try to second-guess characters when they make their opinions and attitudes clear. 

It's not second-guessing. We have instances of the show showing that Arya is attracted to Gendry. When I quoted the whole paragraph of Arya/Ned I showed to you very clearly that what she is rejecting is being a Lady who is not able to do what she wants: she asks her father if she can be lots of things.....actual professions. If she had not asked those before, you could have a point there, but both in the books and in the show, that dialogue starts with the activities that Arya would like doing, and that her father says she won't do because she is a woman/lady (yet he is quite progressive to tell her that she could rule her Lord's castle so as not to disappoint her), but she doesn't want that. She want to be as free as a man can be.

In season seven she states she felt it was not  wrong being good with arrows, and it all confused her. She understood the rules were wrong.

I even acknowledged to you that it is debatable (in the books) if she associates the idea of romance to the limitations of women, but as we see Arya develop, she becomes herself and she never talks about it again. It doesn't stop her from being attracted to Gendry, despite of the fact that she doesn't think that he can be attracted to her to due the bullying she suffered.

See, you misquoted the lines of Arya and I had to quote the whole thing that proves that what Arya really cares is about women choosing what they want to be. More freedom, not less. I also quoted a line from season seven. I speculate based on arguments and quotes. You don't provide them, you twist them, as with Sansa's clothes in s7, that were a message to LF (that was what the costume designer said) but you avoided that part of the quote so as to fit your argument that Sansa will never ever fall in love. 

Going by preconceptions, and never writing quotes to support your arguments while the others spend time finding them to elaborate their replies, or sometimes erasing some parts of it so that it conveniently fits your arguments.is not the way I'd like to have a discussion. So if you don't have them or don't want to quote the whole thing, there is nothing else to discuss. I don't want to lose my time trying to defend my views, what I want is to Exchange points of view, not doing the homework of the other poster- looking for the rest of the quotes that are not provided by the poster who leaves them so as that they can fit their arguments. 

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And Tyrion has never said to himself that he's done with prostitutes and with women in general because Shae fucked him up real good, and Sansa has never said to herself that she's never going to let a man be in a position to control her ever again if she can help it. We know it, though, just as we know that Arya's not into romance and marriage. How? By watching the show and paying attention to what the characters actually say and do, instead of projecting fantasies on to them about how they should be acting and feeling. 

I think your problem is that you're not watching the show, you're watching the version of the show you want to see--based on what you think will happen and reasoning backwards from there--and ignoring what's actually going on. 

 

 

What fantasies are you talking about? I speculate based on quotes from the books, dialogues from the show, actual arcs, and possible hints based on the acting.  If it happens, I'd liked it, bc I'd have scpeculated about it and there's a lot of material to speculate about the romances I like, if it doesn't, well, it's just fiction.

Projecting a fantasy could be ignoring hints because one can't bear that certain fictional characters have a love story, or imagining relationships between characters that have never met. What I do is neither of these.

Of course, I am subjective and I have my preferred storylines as everyone, but I don't watch my version of the show. It's ironic since now your argument is that "what the characters actually say and do" but you still don't provide quotes to refute my interpretations, with their sources.  I don't claim to know the ending of the story, but at least I'm coherent with my arguments.

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That way lies guaranteed disappointment, as the great Jonsa Shipper Meltdown of 2017 showed. The show is what it is. The characters and their relationships are what they are. If you don't like it? For everything else, there's fanfic.

A Jonsa Shipper Meltdown? I didn't even know what a Jonsa was until last year, I suppose it's also a fantasy. I'm not into the world of fantasies, sorry. In other words, I don't need condescending advices, I'd politely ask you to please avoid that as well in further replies.