Heresy 202 and still going

[Black Crow]

25 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

It is a loop. Example: when I ask you what the red in the soviet flag stands for, the answer is "The Bolsheviks". But why do the Bs use red ? That is the question I'm asking. What is the meaning of the red ? And then we search for it. It's a homage to the Paris Commune. And we go further. their flag is again a homage to the the French revolution. And on and on we go through the centuries. From one revolt to another. But the meaning is lost. And if Cat declares it the "metals of winter" it is not helping in the question why they are the metals of winter. Why metal. Why winter. When we know that the Others associated with Winter user other weapons. It's a loop because at some point someone will mention "it stand for the Bolsheviks." And I'm back at the beginning. 

What Tuccu said

And in terms of history, the red flag as a symbol of defiance goes way back beyond the revolutions you mention, but ultimately it does have an origin in the waving of the bloody shirt of the slain martyr, husband, brother, kinsman or whoever as a symbol of defiance and revenge. No loop is necessary - unless its a noose 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

 

 

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

 

Shaw: Do you know what substance an Other sword is made from.

Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.

 

It's interesting to look at that interview again.  The Wall is old ice of course.

Quote

Ice can be used to start a fire by carving it into a lens which will focus sunlight onto kindling. A fire will eventually start.[47]

Ice has even been used as the material for a variety of musical instruments, for example by percussionist Terje Isungset.[48]

Well, I had no idea:

Quote

Ice was originally thought to be slippery due to the pressure of an object coming into contact with the ice, melting a thin layer of the ice and allowing the object to glide across the surface.^[12]

The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness.

Quote

As with water, ice absorbs light at the red end of the spectrum preferentially as the result of an overtone of an oxygen–hydrogen (O–H) bond stretch. Compared with water, this absorption is shifted toward slightly lower energies. Thus, ice appears blue, with a slightly greener tint than liquid water. Since absorption is cumulative, the color effect intensifies with increasing thickness or if internal reflections cause the light to take a longer path through the ice.[11]

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks."

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

 

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

 

The Others are flesh, blood and bone made of ice or different phases of ice kept together with a spell.  Does dragonglass draw out the cold or the soul made into ice?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice

 

 

[Black Crow]

Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:47 PM

In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." 

[Black Crow]

While we're on the subject, I'm reminded of an old suggestion that the reason why Craster's boys leave no tracks in the snow is because they are so cold they freeze it solid beneath their feet

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While we're on the subject, I'm reminded of an old suggestion that the reason why Craster's boys leave no tracks in the snow is because they are so cold they freeze it solid beneath their feet

Yeah, I don't think they are floating above the ground.  They are so cold that the instant they make contact with the ground or snow; they freeze it cold enough to support any weight they actually carry.  That's quite something if we are talking about travelling across deep snow.

[Brad Stark]

15 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I have the feeling we are in a loop. I guess steel is not a winter metal while some copper alloy is. And gemstones are not winter metals because only the Others use crystal swords. 

I also thought the reference to Bronze and Iron as winter metals was unusual.  In winter,  warmth and food are important, and it is hard to hold or work with metal tools.  Why not a crown of wood, leather or wool?  If strong tools are needed, surely steel would be best, and bronze would be irrelevant after iron was available.  We have some reference to bronze and iron as magical, the Others hated iron and the Starks had iron swords in the crypt.  I still this was a reference to the First Men and Andals, and the crown signified domain over both.

[Brad Stark]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While we're on the subject, I'm reminded of an old suggestion that the reason why Craster's boys leave no tracks in the snow is because they are so cold they freeze it solid beneath their feet

Even well below zero, a big guy like me leaves tracks and still would no matter how cold it got.  I can walk without tracks when snow is frozen really hard, but this only happens when it was warm enough to partially melt and refroze.

The Others are impossibly light and thin and just might not be heavy enough.   Or perhaps because they control ice, they can avoid making tracks.  Or GRRM didn't put much thought into how this works.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Even well below zero, a big guy like me leaves tracks and still would no matter how cold it got.  I can walk without tracks when snow is frozen really hard, but this only happens when it was warm enough to partially melt and refroze.

The Others are impossibly light and thin and just might not be heavy enough.   Or perhaps because they control ice, they can avoid making tracks.  Or GRRM didn't put much thought into how this works.

Yes,they are described as thin as swords.  Although ice has some weight to it.  There is also their armor reflecting their surroundings.  I used to think it was glamor but ice reflects it's surrounding also: 

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d2/73/15/d27315dd6e37778d0ea2f5c4f4786430--ice-photo-fine-art-print.jpg

The white shadows might be a light and airy as the dark shadows with ice formed around it and giving the shadow more substance.  The dragonglass draws something out of the Other once the armor is pierced.  The rock seemed alive and sweating.   

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes,they are described as thin as swords.  Although ice has some weight to it.  There is also their armor reflecting their surroundings.  I used to think it was glamor but ice reflects it's surrounding also: 

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d2/73/15/d27315dd6e37778d0ea2f5c4f4786430--ice-photo-fine-art-print.jpg

The white shadows might be a light and airy as the dark shadows with ice formed around it and giving the shadow more substance.  The dragonglass draws something out of the Other once the armor is pierced.  The rock seemed alive and sweating.   

The world book have this bit about the Ironborn weapons:

Quote

and possessed of foul black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew

This might be similar to what happened to Puddles.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The world book have this bit about the Ironborn weapons:

This might be similar to what happened to Puddles.

Nice!

[Black Crow]

59 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The world book have this bit about the Ironborn weapons:

This might be similar to what happened to Puddles.

Possible, but I rather read that swirl of ice crystals as his soul doing an exit stage left

[JNR]

 

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

this kind of technology tends to filter top down, ie; the Andals first tooled up with Iron weapons, but their kings, nobles and knights had steel - in fact that same distinction is still being made in "modern" Westerosi armies. Similarly I'd suggest that there was a similar situation on the other side with most being armed with bronze, but the leaders having iron and later steel.

Sure, it filters top-down in the earliest phases.

But it soon becomes the standard, as development techniques become more efficient, more manufacturers (smiths) start selling it, and the cost of production falls... the only exceptions being Valyrian steel (because its creation was a closely guarded secret that never spread and was lost in the Doom) and whatever Dawn is made of. 

This is why in modern Westeros, steel is routinely available even to poverty-stricken hedge knights like Arlan of Pennytree, and following him, Dunk:

Quote

The blade was straight and heavy, good castle-forged steel, the grip soft leather wrapped over wood, the pommel a smooth polished black stone. Plain as it was, the sword felt good in his hand, and Dunk knew how sharp it was, having worked it with whetstone and oilcloth many a night before they went to sleep.

Thus, if the First Men developed iron at some point in the thousands of years between their own invasion of Westeros and the coming of the Andals, I doubt it was only their nobles who had it.  I think it had long since become common.

[SirArthur]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I also thought the reference to Bronze and Iron as winter metals was unusual.

I don't know about all of that. In the show section someone has shown with book quotes how all Ironborn are raiders and how the society has no normal jobs. I haven't read much into that thing and still have to make my own book reads conecerning exactly this issue. But there is something overexited about GRRMs dark and grim descriptions. Same with the winters north of the Wall or the land in general there. Giant trees full of snow when it is still summer in Westeros. There is no description how the trees grow or how the iron islands in general work as a society. It may not be the grim dark future of the 41st millenia ... but is is grim and dark.

I think one just has to accept that certain descriptions are not mirroring earth live in scandinavia. Same with economy. Is it different ? Sure. Do we get an alternate description ? No. 

And I don't know about this bronze/iron thing. Could go either way. 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

 

Sure, it filters top-down in the earliest phases.

But it soon becomes the standard, as development techniques become more efficient, more manufacturers (smiths) start selling it, and the cost of production falls... the only exceptions being Valyrian steel (because its creation was a closely guarded secret that never spread and was lost in the Doom) and whatever Dawn is made of. 

This is why in modern Westeros, steel is routinely available even to poverty-stricken hedge knights like Arlan of Pennytree, and following him, Dunk:

Thus, if the First Men developed iron at some point in the thousands of years between their own invasion of Westeros and the coming of the Andals, I doubt it was only their nobles who had it.  I think it had long since become common.

Depend on what you regard as common, kings, nobles, knights etc yes, but the very fact a distinction is made between "castle-forged steel" and what the ordinary foot soldiers have is significant.

[Black Crow]

59 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know about all of that. In the show section someone has shown with book quotes how all Ironborn are raiders and how the society has no normal jobs. I haven't read much into that thing and still have to make my own book reads conecerning exactly this issue. But there is something overexited about GRRMs dark and grim descriptions. Same with the winters north of the Wall or the land in general there. Giant trees full of snow when it is still summer in Westeros. There is no description how the trees grow or how the iron islands in general work as a society. It may not be the grim dark future of the 41st millenia ... but is is grim and dark.

I think one just has to accept that certain descriptions are not mirroring earth live in scandinavia. Same with economy. Is it different ? Sure. Do we get an alternate description ? No. 

And I don't know about this bronze/iron thing. Could go either way. 

Its GRRM's world and what he says is what there is. Ultimately certain things happen because he wants them to happen and if he doesn't go into the detail its because he doesn't think that particular detail is important to the story

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Possible, but I rather read that swirl of ice crystals as his soul doing an exit stage left

Maybe it was just freeing the soul, but I like it being a parallel to the other soul-absorbing weapons (Lightbringer, the iron born mythical weapons and possible Valyrian steel): Sam tempering his dagger in Puddles.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Depend on what you regard as common, kings, nobles, knights etc yes, but the very fact a distinction is made between "castle-forged steel" and what the ordinary foot soldiers have is significant.

It may also be the case that iron was slow to come into broad favor among the First Men for cultural reasons, if there's any truth to the notion that iron binds or disrupts sorcery, especially the sorcery of the old gods.

For example, Meera adorns herself in bronze scale (though she does seem to own an old iron helm) and wears a bronze knife, despite being the daughter of a noble house, and says that Howland did the same when he was going to see the Green Men:

Quote

"No one visits the Isle of Faces," objected Bran. "That's where the green men live."

"It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork."

Speculatively, Howland going among the green men wearing bronze rather than iron and steel might reflect an acknowledgement of some cultural taboo, rather than mere poverty. 

And, of course, if it does reflect poverty, that will still be a mark against the notion that iron was in widespread usage by the FM 4,000 - 6,000 years ago.

There's also Styr, who fancies himself "the last of the First Men," who also utilizes bronze as his chosen material; again, this could be explained by availability, and the fact that the Thenns seem to be among the only Free Folk who work bronze (or any metal), but you'd think a leader who is like a god among his people could acquire steel, if he truly desired it, and leave the bronze to his subordinates. 

[redriver]

On 9/20/2017 at 0:26 AM, SirArthur said:

I think my brain has found a solution about everything we discussed. So bear with me:

1. What lies north and north and north again ?  Winter-fell

2. What lies north and north and north again ? The heart of winter

3. Bran cries when he sees inside the heart of winter because ....

4. he sees Winterfell, more specific, the crypts

5. Why does he cry ? because he is not fearless 

6. Why is he not fearless ? Because he is still alive, only the dead are fearless

7. Why do the Starks have a large crypt and the King's of Winter can have a second live ? So that they are fearless

8. Fearless so they can enter the crypt

9. into the heart to winter

10. The crypts call to Jon and jon will enter them

11. to find the solution to bring the end to the long night

12. to bring Dawn

13. and end the long night in the heart of winter. All he needs is Lightbringer from House Dayne. 

14. And only a Stark can do it. Whyever this is the case I do not know.

 

I've long held the view that it's the original Nights King that's interred at the deepest level of the crypts.In the text it says he was cast down as opposed to killed outright.

Cast down implies being flung into a pit or banished underground and chained up or warded there.If this is the case and the original NK was a Stark,it explains the ongoing tradition of warding subsequent Winter Kings and lords.

It also might explain Jon's scary crypt dreams-in one iirc he thinks it's not the kings I'm afraid of....

I like your reasoning above.

[LynnS]

On 9/19/2017 at 7:26 PM, SirArthur said:

I think my brain has found a solution about everything we discussed. So bear with me:

1. What lies north and north and north again ?  Winter-fell

2. What lies north and north and north again ? The heart of winter

3. Bran cries when he sees inside the heart of winter because ....

4. he sees Winterfell, more specific, the crypts

5. Why does he cry ? because he is not fearless 

6. Why is he not fearless ? Because he is still alive, only the dead are fearless

7. Why do the Starks have a large crypt and the King's of Winter can have a second live ? So that they are fearless

8. Fearless so they can enter the crypt

9. into the heart to winter

10. The crypts call to Jon and jon will enter them

11. to find the solution to bring the end to the long night

12. to bring Dawn

13. and end the long night in the heart of winter. All he needs is Lightbringer from House Dayne. 

14. And only a Stark can do it. Whyever this is the case I do not know.

 

 

3 hours ago, redriver said:

I've long held the view that it's the original Nights King that's interred at the deepest level of the crypts.In the text it says he was cast down as opposed to killed outright.

Cast down implies being flung into a pit or banished underground and chained up or warded there.If this is the case and the original NK was a Stark,it explains the ongoing tradition of warding subsequent Winter Kings and lords.

It also might explain Jon's scary crypt dreams-in one iirc he thinks it's not the kings I'm afraid of....

I like your reasoning above.

Yup, I agree.  The reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell; to throw down the Night's King should he be freed or resurrected in some way.  Perhaps also the reason why the dead Kings of Winter must be warded with iron and what is dead can never die.  As I recall it was Redriver who pointed out that winter arrives first at Winterfell.

If this is the case, I doubt that the Black Gate weeping warm tears is the soul of ice... the  Night's King, but something else.  Another Stark, perhaps Bran the Builder, since the gate is connected to the Wall. 

The cup passes to each lord of Winterfell who becomes the next Lord in jeopardy of the frozen hell reserved for Starks.

For some reason, I'm reminded of Shaggy Dog:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

Rickon nodded. "You leave him. You leave him be. He's coming home now, like he promised. He's coming home."

Bran had never seen Maester Luwin look so uncertain before. Blood dripped down his arm where Shaggydog had shredded the wool of his sleeve and the flesh beneath. "Osha, the torch," he said, biting through his pain, and she snatched it up before it went out. Soot stains blackened both legs of his uncle's likeness. "That … that beast," Luwin went on, "is supposed to be chained up in the kennels."

Rickon patted Shaggydog's muzzle, damp with blood. "I let him loose. He doesn't like chains." He licked at his fingers.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran I

He could smell his brother too, a familiar scent, strong and earthy, his scent as black as his coat. His brother was loping around the walls, full of fury. Round and round he went, night after day after night, tireless, searching . . . for prey, for a way out, for his mother, his littermates, his pack . . . searching, searching, and never finding.

Is the NK manifesting in Shaggy Dog?  Rickon says he doesn't like to be chained so he let him loose.  If Tree-Bran can touch Ghost and talk to Jon, can the NK do the same with Shaggy Dog and Rickon?

When Rickon says 'he is coming home'; who is he?  I don't think we are talking about Ned's bones or Ned's ghost. Whoever 'he' is, he's not Ned.  This sounds like a warning.  We know Jon is coming home at some point and perhaps the sea is coming to Winterfell in waves.  I have a feeling that Euron is coming home too.  

[LynnS]

So what is Whitetree then and the Black Gate? I suspect that WT is one of the chained giants who built the Wall.   The horn that Sam carries is the horn of winter that wakes giants in the earth.  I don't think you can find the gate without the horn and it won't open it's eyes or wake without the presence of the horn.  If there is another gate in the crypts of Winterfell, I suspect Jon needs the horn to wake it.

Could this be why Mance was searching for the horn?  To find the black gates and open them.