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Heresy 202 and still going


Black Crow

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32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So what is Whitetree then and the Black Gate? I suspect that WT is one of the chained giants who built the Wall.   The horn that Sam carries is the horn of winter that wakes giants in the earth.  I don't think you can find the gate without the horn and it won't open it's eyes or wake without the presence of the horn.  If there is another gate in the crypts of Winterfell, I suspect Jon needs the horn to wake it.

Could this be why Mance was searching for the horn?  To find the black gates and open them.

The sort of info Sam might find in the Citadel?

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7 hours ago, redriver said:

I've long held the view that it's the original Nights King that's interred at the deepest level of the crypts.In the text it says he was cast down as opposed to killed outright.

Cast down implies being flung into a pit or banished underground and chained up or warded there.If this is the case and the original NK was a Stark,it explains the ongoing tradition of warding subsequent Winter Kings and lords.

It also might explain Jon's scary crypt dreams-in one iirc he thinks it's not the kings I'm afraid of....

I like your reasoning above.

Hey! Good to hear from you again :commie:

As to your comment I agree that the Night's King's "end" is ambiguous, but in any case as a Stark his place is in the Winterfell crypts anyway. Where I think I'm inclined to part company with accepted legend is in regarding him as unique; I think all of the Stark lords awed allegiance to the Ice, until the he was overthrown

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cast down:

Balon:

"The Storm God cast him down," the priest announced. For a thousand thousand years sea and sky had been at war. From the sea had come the ironborn, and the fish that sustained them even in the depths of winter, but storms brought only woe and grief. "My brother Balon made us great again, which earned the Storm God's wrath. 

The Storm God in his wrath plucked Balon from his castle and cast him down, and now he feasts beneath the waves."

Cersei:

Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Lords:

"It is, my lord," the boy said, "but some of the histories were penned by their maesters and some by ours, centuries after the events that they purport to chronicle. It goes back to the Age of Heroes. The Blackwoods were kings in those days. The Brackens were petty lords, renowned for breeding horses. Rather than pay their king his just due, they used the gold their horses brought them to hire swords and cast him down."

House Darry had ruled these lands since the Andals cast down the First Men. 

 

The Nigh's King fell:

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King.

she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall

After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, 

 

edit: I admit this is grammar nazi style. In any case, if the NK is imprisoned in Winterfell, the indication is more likely the Others, in form of his woman, imprisoned him during the Long Night.Either that or he cast the Long Night. In both cases (or even other scenarios) it would indicate the long night is connected to the imprisonment. One way or another. 

Question: In that reality, what would force the Others to "cast" a second long night ? Because the NK broke out ? Or because events reoccured ? 9 years before the events we had Balon's rebellion and the birth of Bran. But I see no connection. How is the rebellion connected to the NK ?

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4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

"This," Qyburn said. "For years now, the Night's Watch has begged for men. Lord Stannis has answered their plea. Can King Tommen do less? His Grace should send the Wall a hundred men. To take the black, ostensibly, but in truth . . ."

". . . to remove Jon Snow from the command," Cersei finished, delighted. I knew I was right to want him on my council. "That is just what we shall do." She laughed. If this bastard boy is truly his father's son, he will not suspect a thing. Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs. "It will need to be done carefully, to be sure. Leave the rest to me, my lords." This was how an enemy should be dealt with: with a dagger, not a declaration. "We have done good work today, my lords. I thank you. Is there aught else?"

 

http://hamletcommentary.weebly.com/scene-5.html

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9 hours ago, SirArthur said:

cast down:

Balon:

"The Storm God cast him down," the priest announced. For a thousand thousand years sea and sky had been at war. From the sea had come the ironborn, and the fish that sustained them even in the depths of winter, but storms brought only woe and grief. "My brother Balon made us great again, which earned the Storm God's wrath. 

The Storm God in his wrath plucked Balon from his castle and cast him down, and now he feasts beneath the waves."

Cersei:

Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Lords:

"It is, my lord," the boy said, "but some of the histories were penned by their maesters and some by ours, centuries after the events that they purport to chronicle. It goes back to the Age of Heroes. The Blackwoods were kings in those days. The Brackens were petty lords, renowned for breeding horses. Rather than pay their king his just due, they used the gold their horses brought them to hire swords and cast him down."

House Darry had ruled these lands since the Andals cast down the First Men. 

 

The Nigh's King fell:

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King.

she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall

After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, 

 

edit: I admit this is grammar nazi style. In any case, if the NK is imprisoned in Winterfell, the indication is more likely the Others, in form of his woman, imprisoned him during the Long Night.Either that or he cast the Long Night. In both cases (or even other scenarios) it would indicate the long night is connected to the imprisonment. One way or another. 

Question: In that reality, what would force the Others to "cast" a second long night ? Because the NK broke out ? Or because events reoccured ? 9 years before the events we had Balon's rebellion and the birth of Bran. But I see no connection. How is the rebellion connected to the NK ?

Perhaps aside from their mission to destroy every living thing,their mission is to head to Winterfell to rescue the original?

Don't see any connection between the rebellion and the NK.More likely connected to the comet,dragons and the resurgence of magic on Planetos.

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As to the Long Night, GRRM has said that there's a reason why the Westerosi seasons are screwed but has denied that it has anything to do with elliptical orbits or anything else in the way of cosmology. Its clearly implied that its a matter of magic but we're going to have to wait to see whether it was a deliberate act, or more likely given the way his world works, the unintended consequence of messing with something else; say bringing down the Hammer of the Waters or raising the Wall.

Either way I'd look in the first instance to those who we know can work such magicks, ie: the three-fingered tree-huggers. Once again I still see the white walkers as a consequence of the Long Night rather than its begetters; not a race, with their own culture however alien, but a different kind of life created by magic, like and unto the Fire dragons, and in this case animated not by ancient Targaryens but Starks.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

As to the Long Night, GRRM has said that there's a reason why the Westerosi seasons are screwed but has denied that it has anything to do with elliptical orbits or anything else in the way of cosmology. Its clearly implied that its a matter of magic but we're going to have to wait to see whether it was a deliberate act, or more likely given the way his world works, the unintended consequence of messing with something else; say bringing down the Hammer of the Waters or raising the Wall.

Either way I'd look in the first instance to those who we know can work such magicks, ie: the three-fingered tree-huggers. Once again I still see the white walkers as a consequence of the Long Night rather than its begetters; not a race, with their own culture however alien, but a different kind of life created by magic, like and unto the Fire dragons, and in this case animated not by ancient Targaryens but Starks.

Yes, true.  But there are also a number of other instances where the kings beyond the wall and the wildlings have broken their strength upon the wall.  So I think these other stories conflate with the origin story for some reason.  Thus: a woman was his downfall.  Teasing it apart is the challenge.

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1 hour ago, redriver said:

Don't see any connection between the rebellion and the NK

 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its clearly implied that its a matter of magic but we're going to have to wait to see whether it was a deliberate act, or more likely given the way his world works, the unintended consequence of messing with something else; 

 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Either way I'd look in the first instance to those who we know can work such magicks,

 

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Thus: a woman was his downfall.  Teasing it apart is the challenge.

 

I have nothing except Victarion's mysterious salt wife Euron raped. And as far as I understand it, Balon reintroduced the concept of salt wifes with the rebellion. 

 

edit: concerning the 9 years of summer, the mysterious reason could have also happened during the early summers. Or even longer ago. Although it would raise questions, how long the magic "fridge" neds to cool up. 

For story purposes the burning of Rickard start is most likely the source. However the winter reaction time raises questions. 

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29 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I have nothing except Victarion's mysterious salt wife Euron raped. And as far as I understand it, Balon reintroduced the concept of salt wifes with the rebellion.

edit: concerning the 9 years of summer, the mysterious reason could have also happened during the early summers. Or even longer ago. Although it would raise questions, how long the magic "fridge" neds to cool up. 

For story purposes the burning of Rickard start is most likely the source. However the winter reaction time raises questions. 

I expect there are a few women involved with someone's downfall in this story.  Cersei for one.  And I fell down the stairs today, so I've had mine. I'm still not sure if the heart of darkness and the soul of ice are the same thing; or that north and north and north are the same place.  All I can say is that there better be a monster in basement or I've been wasting my time.

Now I'm going to make some supper and put some ice on my knee.

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I'm not sure that we need to look for an originating event for this particular Winter; the seasons were screwed long long ago and this is just the equivalent of the seventh wave. Its not happening because a couple of individuals did something clever [or stupid depending on your viewpoint] although the reverse appears to be true insofar as some things are now or are once again possible because the magic in the air is waxing

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11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not sure that we need to look for an originating event for this particular Winter; the seasons were screwed long long ago and this is just the equivalent of the seventh wave. Its not happening because a couple of individuals did something clever [or stupid depending on your viewpoint] although the reverse appears to be true insofar as some things are now or are once again possible because the magic in the air is waxing

The tournament at Harrenhal was the year of the false Spring.   As if seasons were about to change and something someone did reversed it.  A lot happened that year.   Someone's actions are influencing the seasons,  but I don't think we have enough information to figure out what and how.

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4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

The tournament at Harrenhal was the year of the false Spring.   As if seasons were about to change and something someone did reversed it.  A lot happened that year.   Someone's actions are influencing the seasons,  but I don't think we have enough information to figure out what and how.

And I just went into researching the summer and winter seasons as being the song because they seem to last an odd number of years. 

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On 9/24/2017 at 2:46 PM, Black Crow said:

Depend on what you regard as common, kings, nobles, knights etc yes, but the very fact a distinction is made between "castle-forged steel" and what the ordinary foot soldiers have is significant.

So is the fact that a hedge knight could possibly have such a thing as a castle-forged sword.  (Try to imagine Dunk inheriting a Valyrian steel sword.)

There are certainly varying qualities of steel.  However, your previous case was not that the First Men fought the Andals with varying qualities of iron; you said the nobles had iron weapons and the common soldiers had bronze weapons.  Maybe... 

On 9/24/2017 at 5:11 PM, Matthew. said:

Speculatively, Howland going among the green men wearing bronze rather than iron and steel might reflect an acknowledgement of some cultural taboo, rather than mere poverty. 

Well, it may not be taboo, exactly, but I don't think it's at all speculative it was a choice, since we know generations of Andal armies failed to get through the swamps, leaving weapons and armor behind when they died. 

So Howland was choosing bronze for his own reasons (not given to us).   Whatever's going on in Thenn heads, to have engaged the Watch so foolishly with bronze weapons against the Watch's steel weapons, may be connected somehow.

On 9/24/2017 at 5:11 PM, Matthew. said:

It may also be the case that iron was slow to come into broad favor among the First Men for cultural reasons, if there's any truth to the notion that iron binds or disrupts sorcery

I'm trying to think of some sort of evidence that it does.

Instead, what keeps coming to mind is this:

Quote

"You're dead!" Sam screamed as he stabbed. "You're dead, you're dead." He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in Paul's heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool.

So far from binding or disrupting the sorcery that makes Small Paul the Wight function, the wight is actually wearing iron -- as a style choice, because iron is in that season?  -- perhaps, we cannot say -- and what gets disrupted is Sam's dagger.   In any case, wearing the iron doesn't seem to be doing it any particular harm.

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2 hours ago, JNR said:

So Howland was choosing bronze for his own reasons (not given to us).   Whatever's going on in Thenn heads, to have engaged the Watch so foolishly with bronze weapons against the Watch's steel weapons, may be connected somehow.

I wonder if runes are more than just inscriptions but are used as magic in some way with bronze.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_magic

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if runes are more than just inscriptions but are used as magic in some way with bronze.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_magic

I think that's clearly implied, but once again Bronze Yon and everyone else doesn't know because its use has been forgotten over the generations

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6 hours ago, JNR said:

So is the fact that a hedge knight could possibly have such a thing as a castle-forged sword.  (Try to imagine Dunk inheriting a Valyrian steel sword.)

There are certainly varying qualities of steel.  However, your previous case was not that the First Men fought the Andals with varying qualities of iron; you said the nobles had iron weapons and the common soldiers had bronze weapons.  Maybe... 

I think that's overstating the case. My real point is that except in the very earliest days when the Andals came to the Vale its unwise to make too sharp a distinction between the First Men with bronze and the Andals with iron and steel. Rather that in the beginning the First Men had bronze and were disadvantaged accordingly, but as time passed...

A good analogy would be Native Americans who started out with bows and encountered European firearms, then very quickly scrambled to catch up through trade and capture. Some still carried bows for a very long time, but firearms for preference.

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6 hours ago, JNR said:

So Howland was choosing bronze for his own reasons (not given to us).   Whatever's going on in Thenn heads, to have engaged the Watch so foolishly with bronze weapons against the Watch's steel weapons, may be connected somehow.

I'm trying to think of some sort of evidence that it does.

Instead, what keeps coming to mind is this:

So far from binding or disrupting the sorcery that makes Small Paul the Wight function, the wight is actually wearing iron -- as a style choice, because iron is in that season?  -- perhaps, we cannot say -- and what gets disrupted is Sam's dagger.   In any case, wearing the iron doesn't seem to be doing it any particular harm.

Its an interesting point, or rather couple of points.

As to the first bronze is inferior to iron and steel in military terms, but while it may be obsolete it is still effective. As a soldier I was armed with a variety of firearms, but it didn't stop me from carrying a knife

The second is a good observation. I'd like to think that the Stark swords are laid across the tombs with ancient incantations, but I suspect its more likely that GRRM overlooked the inconsistency

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15 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, it may not be taboo, exactly, but I don't think it's at all speculative it was a choice, since we know generations of Andal armies failed to get through the swamps, leaving weapons and armor behind when they died. 

So Howland was choosing bronze for his own reasons (not given to us).   Whatever's going on in Thenn heads, to have engaged the Watch so foolishly with bronze weapons against the Watch's steel weapons, may be connected somehow.

...

So far from binding or disrupting the sorcery that makes Small Paul the Wight function, the wight is actually wearing iron -- as a style choice, because iron is in that season?  -- perhaps, we cannot say -- and what gets disrupted is Sam's dagger.   In any case, wearing the iron doesn't seem to be doing it any particular harm.

I agree that the text doesn't really support the superstitions - the Winterfell crypts, and Old Nan's assertion that the Others 'hated iron,' - but I was wondering to what extent GRRM is playing on the mythological idea of iron being anathema to faeries. To use the example of Howland Reed, I was wondering whether or not it might be considered offensive to wear iron among the green men.

To go in the opposite magical direction, given that the FM used bronze for their runes, it may be that a superstitious notion developed in post-Pact FM culture that bronze is somehow more 'sacred' than other metals--not because it's actually true, but just because of tradition.

Leaving aside magical implications, I suspect that tradition and cultural pride at least plays a role with the Thenns; we're told that they're a proud people, so it may be that they'd rather use armor and weapons they've forged themselves, even if they could trade or raid for better options. 

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