Heresy 202 and still going

[JNR]

13 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Dany hatching her eggs is different from how Targaryans after Aegon the Conqueror hatched theirs.  It is possible some sacrifice was needed, but probably nothing as elaborate as Dany's.

Quite a different situation. Those dragon eggs hadn't petrified, but were hatched naturally in the way all eggs, recently laid by all creatures, are hatched. 

[SirArthur]

So if the dragons are supposed to lay eggs in that fiery place under Dragonstone ... how do they get there ? By volcano flight ?

 

The same problem as with the supposed eggs under Winterfell. The place needs an entrance the size of an airplane hangar.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

The crypts are a place for Starks - not just the lords of the House - and one of the themes of the dreams is that Jon doesn't (from his point of view) belong. 

We interpret those dreams quite differently.  Text reads:

Quote

It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream

Jon's concept that he doesn't belong is the very idea that is rejected ("no good") and so he has "to go anyway."  

The dream looks at the idea that the crypts aren't Jon's place and rolls its eyes!  That's why he does go down further into the crypts, which is to say into the Stark past.  And things get darker the further into the past he goes...

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Robb steals from Jon even the mere fantasy of playing Lord of Winterfell; "you can't be the Lord of Winterfell... you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

That's cutting a little deeper than just speaking the truth.

You make it sound like Robb had some design in his head in saying this, but he was just a child, and he was telling the truth as he knew it, as told to him by adults.  He may not even have understood this would come as news to Jon; he himself knew, after all.

Years later -- a man, Lord of Winterfell,and the King in the North -- Robb has so little respect for what he was told as a child that he seems perfectly prepared to override Westerosian customs and laws by making Jon a literal Stark and empowering him to inherit Winterfell and Robb's own title.  This, he knows well, would obliterate whatever traditional claims anyone in the Vale might have.  

And it's is a much more powerful statement than some remark from when he was seven (or whatever), that happened to strike a nerve with Jon.  We don't know what was in Robb's mind or heart in saying that, then, but we do know what is in his mind and heart in arguing with Catelyn in ASOS... and I doubt it came to him as a sudden revelation, for him to be, as Catelyn puts it, set on this course of action.

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

So if the dragons are supposed to lay eggs in that fiery place under Dragonstone ... how do they get there ? By volcano flight ?

 

The same problem as with the supposed eggs under Winterfell. The place needs an entrance the size of an airplane hangar.

Not necessarily. The eggs may well be laid out in the open somewhere before being carefully carried off by some designing Targaryen and placed somewhere warm. If that's the case there might well be an egg or eggs in Winterfell, but I have my doubts

[Brad Stark]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah well its one of those "textual analysis" things where proceeding from a fixed assumption a search is launched for any possible "evidence" to support that preconception.

Even with all of the dodgy stuff stripped away there is a fundamental problem with Jon [or any other name] Targaryen in his present condition, ie; he has a number of serious puncture wounds.

1. They may not be fatal [GRRM has after all teased at this] but they are certainly sufficiently disabling to remove him from the story for a long time at a critical stage.

2. He is dead but can be made better by magick

While I wouldn't rule out option 1, option 2 is more likely, but that then brings in a range of problems likely to be fatal to Targaryen ambitions:

1. Mel can kiss him better; that gives us Beric/Stoneheart depending on how quickly she get to him. Neither are steps to the Iron Throne, especially given GRRM's constant insistence that magic comes with a price

2. Ah but Jon is a warg and Ghost is next door. More likely than the preceding one, but do we see King Coldhands, First of his name?

3. John is a Stark warg, Jon may soon tread lightly on the snow

As it happens, I don't have a problem with the theory that Jon may be the son of Rhaegar but on balance, he has had no dragon dreams. While Danaerys dreamed of dragons and fire, Jon's dreams are of Winterfell and the crypts and his story arc lies not in Fire but in Ice

GRRM has said Beric "was set up as the foreshadowing" and "Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books. Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in.".  GRRM is very clear resurrection will play a major role in his story, and it will involve a character more important than Beric or Catelyn.  This doesn't mean it is Jon - an unDany works just as well, but Jon just happens to be stabbed right now.

GRRM has repeatedly talked about his disappointment with Gandalf coming right back from the dead mostly unchanged.  Whatever major character comes back, they will be significantly changed.  Throw this in with his views on prophecy and wanting to turn fantasy stereotypes on their head, and you see why I believe Jon is the prophesied hero born to save the world - except he was killed and now is back from the dead as an even greater threat.

 

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, JNR said:

I have many -- I think objectively speaking there are many, and it's easy to compile a list -- but as far as I can see, this premise can't be ruled out, either.

I'm prepared to go with it using Occam's Razor, my argument is that the consequences of the act may not be so simple

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Another thing I'm curious about - and perhaps this is covered in the text, and I'm just forgetting - is how gradually the dragons weakened. Was the first generation born after Balerion already a little smaller, a little less vital, a little less long-lived? Were the dragons, even then, already in decline? 

 

One suggestion presented in the text (by Marwyn the Mage) is that the decline and demise of  dragons was accomplished by the Citadel:

Quote

"Aemon would have gone to [Danaerys] if he had the strength. He wanted us to send a maester to her, to counsel her and protect her and fetch her safely home."

"Did he?" Archmaester Marwyn shrugged. "Perhaps it's good that he died before he got to Oldtown. Elsewise the grey sheep might have had to kill him, and that would have made the poor old dears wring their wrinkled hands."

"Kill him?" Sam said, shocked. "Why?"

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marwyn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can."

...

"B-b-but," Sam sputtered, "the other archrnaesters… the Seneschal… what should I tell them?"

"Tell them how wise and good they are. Tell them that Aemon commanded you to put yourself into their hands. Tell them that you have always dreamed that one day you might be allowed to wear the chain and serve the greater good, that service is the highest honor, and obedience the highest virtue. But say nothing of prophecies or dragons, unless you fancy poison in your porridge."

( AFFC, Chapter 45)

 

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Another thing I'm curious about - and perhaps this is covered in the text, and I'm just forgetting - is how gradually the dragons weakened. Was the first generation born after Balerion already a little smaller, a little less vital, a little less long-lived? Were the dragons, even then, already in decline?

I hadn't noticed it before today, but the black egg is the largest egg and the dragon that thrives the best.  The white dragon is the smallest and weakest and I wonder why.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM has said Beric "was set up as the foreshadowing" and "Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books. Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in.".  GRRM is very clear resurrection will play a major role in his story, and it will involve a character more important than Beric or Catelyn.  This doesn't mean it is Jon - an unDany works just as well, but Jon just happens to be stabbed right now.

GRRM has repeatedly talked about his disappointment with Gandalf coming right back from the dead mostly unchanged.  Whatever major character comes back, they will be significantly changed.  Throw this in with his views on prophecy and wanting to turn fantasy stereotypes on their head, and you see why I believe Jon is the prophesied hero born to save the world - except he was killed and now is back from the dead as an even greater threat.

I'd question whether Jon is a hero prophesied to save the world; after all although our knowledge is incomplete it appears to be a prophecy associated with Fire.

Otherwise, that's basically what I'm arguing. If Jon is dead and brought back to life, a price will be paid and at best he will be "damaged"; he will not be the Targaryen prince [or king] so earnestly desired by some

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Jon's concept that he doesn't belong is the very idea that is rejected ("no good") and so he has "to go anyway."  

The dream looks at the idea that the crypts aren't Jon's place and rolls its eyes!  That's why he does go down further into the crypts, which is to say into the Stark past.  And things get darker the further into the past he goes...

Rejected by who...by what? There is more than one crypt dream, and Jon's self-conception of his place in House Stark is one of their themes. I believe you've quoted AGOT, but there's a vivid dream in ASOS as well:
 

Quote

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . .

Revisit the post that you quoted--what I said is that one of the themes of the dreams is that Jon does not belong, from Jon's point of view. Not as objective truth.

The significance of Jon being beckoned deeper is not clear. If these dreams are prophetic, there are some readers that suggest that Jon is being beckoned into the depths because the 'secrets' therein relate to his heritage--that he does not belong among dead kings and dead lords of House Stark, and that whatever lay beneath is something else entirely. Others interpret that it relates to the idea of Jon having "more of the North" in him than his half-siblings.

If these dreams are not prophetic, and are purely representative of Jon's self-image, then that Jon would both protest that he does not belong while being beckoned deeper are not ideas that are at odds with each other. It is a part of Jon's arc in ASOS that he had once believed that he would prove everyone wrong, that he would show his lord father he's a son that is as "good and true" as Robb. Then comes the self-recrimination. On one level, Jon wants to believe he's worthy; on another, he cannot fully escape the psychological damage of the Westerosi attitude toward bastards.

My choice of comparison to Samwell was not wholly arbitrary--we see in Sam an intelligent person that has so thoroughly internalized his father's criticisms that he dismisses objective reality; he notes in AFFC that he has greatly improved in his accuracy with the bow, then immediately undermines this by declaring himself "still the worst archer in the seven kingdoms."

Similarly, Tyrion both dreams of immolating his father with dragon fire, while being desperate for his love and respect. He hates his father, but that hate could so easily be flipped to love, despite Tyrion's cynical armor.
 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

You make it sound like Robb had some design in his head in saying this, but he was just a child, and he was telling the truth as he knew it, as told to him by adults.  He may not even have understood this would come as news to Jon; he himself knew, after all.

Again, look at the full context of the post: regardless of Robb's intent, we know how Jon took his words, and even if Robb is only parroting adults, his words still lack empathy. Intent vs. impact. 

In parroting the adults in their lives, Jon's siblings are still wounding Jon, still reinforcing the idea that his birth distinguishes him in a negative way, makes him less a Stark. 
 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

And it's is a much more powerful statement than some remark from when he was seven (or whatever), that happened to strike a nerve with Jon.  We don't know what was in Robb's mind or heart in saying that, then, but we do know what is in his mind and heart in arguing with Catelyn in ASOS... and I doubt it came to him as a sudden revelation, for him to be, as Catelyn puts it, set on this course of action.

Right. This is character growth. Robb, as King in the North, believing that Bran and Rickon are dead, views Jon's prospects as a Lord of Winterfell in far more nuanced terms than he would have when Eddard was living, only in his 30s, the realm was at peace, and Jon is far down in the line of succession--and, of course, Robb was younger and more immature.

We see similar growth in Sansa's thoughts, who is quick in AGOT to correct Arya that Jon is only their "half-brother;" by ASOS and AFFC, being reunited with Jon would mean a great deal to her.

Robb naming Jon his heir is a powerful statement of Robb's current state of mind--it is not a powerful statement of how Jon believes he was viewed by Robb, or within his household...where, for Jon, the context of the training yard appears to be a lingering wound, whereas Robb may have forgotten the incident entirely, or not even noted it as an incident in the first place.
_______

Out of curiosity, how far are we in true disagreement here? Do you disagree that whether or not Jon 'belongs' in House Stark is central to his character journey? Do you disagree that his siblings have influenced his self-perception, possibly for the worse?

From my point of view, there was no disagreement over whether or not Jon has dragon dreams, or daydreams of burning his family members with dragonfire (he doesn't); what prompted my response was that, as I understood it, when BC said that Jon's protestations to Tyrion are not entirely convincing, he did not mean that Jon daydreams of dragons, he meant that Jon has a lot of guilt and unresolved resentment, especially in relation to Robb. It was my intent to expand upon that with the text.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

One suggestion presented in the text (by Marwyn the Mage) is that the decline and demise of  dragons was accomplished by the Citadel:

I'm inclined to trust Marwyn here (though he's a dubious figure), which is why I'm curious about the timeline for the decline of the dragons--when did the Citadel's interference begin, and what form did it take? Were they 'dragonslaying' in some direct manner, or did they do something that diminished Valyrian magic, and by extension, the dragons?

I'm thinking here of practices such as blood sacrifice to the weirwood, that eventually fell out of favor; did the Targaryens once practice some element of ritual sacrifice that fell out of favor for the sake of integrating into modern Westerosi society? Would such a thing have been important in the decline of the dragons?

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . .

What?  His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees?  Is he using the not a Stark argument as a crutch?  Or is this some future vision where he needs a crutch?

[LynnS]

35 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I'm inclined to trust Marwyn here (though he's a dubious figure), which is why I'm curious about the timeline for the decline of the dragons--when did the Citadel's interference begin, and what form did it take? Were they 'dragonslaying' in some direct manner, or did they do something that diminished Valyrian magic, and by extension, the dragons?

I'm thinking here of practices such as blood sacrifice to the weirwood, that eventually fell out of favor; did the Targaryens once practice some element of ritual sacrifice that fell out of favor for the sake of integrating into modern Westerosi society? Would such a thing have been important in the decline of the dragons?

I'm not sure they can poison a dragon, if Melisander is anything to go by.  Likely the were offing people with knowledge of dragonlore.  That's now forbidden knowledge at the Citadel; probably something to do with the valyrian steel ring as well and very few will know much about it unless they have travelled.

Dragons don't thrive when chained up in the dark for one thing.  Animals left alone in isolation do not thrive.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What?  His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees?  Is he using the not a Stark argument as a crutch?  Or is this some future vision where he needs a crutch?

I like it!  

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm inclined to trust Marwyn here (though he's a dubious figure), which is why I'm curious about the timeline for the decline of the dragons--when did the Citadel's interference begin, and what form did it take? Were they 'dragonslaying' in some direct manner, or did they do something that diminished Valyrian magic, and by extension, the dragons?

Dragons have to practice inbreeding right ? A population of 5,3 or 19 at peak times is in no way stable. 

[SirArthur]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM has said Beric "was set up as the foreshadowing" and "Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books. Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in.".  GRRM is very clear resurrection will play a major role in his story, and it will involve a character more important than Beric or Catelyn.  This doesn't mean it is Jon - an unDany works just as well, but Jon just happens to be stabbed right now.

If (and this is a very big if) Ned is alive an undead Cat makes perfect sense as a main character with a role to play without the need of her "parching the torch".

[SirArthur]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Not necessarily. The eggs may well be laid out in the open somewhere before being carefully carried off by some designing Targaryen and placed somewhere warm. If that's the case there might well be an egg or eggs in Winterfell, but I have my doubts

Well, the semi-canon source states the eggs were laid in the crypts. And I can see that if there is a sufficient heat source. I just don't see how the dragon reaches the heat source. 

In contrast to Dragonstone where I imagine the vulcano as a natural dragon habitat and this may be where the path under Dragonstone leads. 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . .

And this next bit:  Summer is the direwolf spotted with blood in the crypts with him...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

And this next bit:  Summer is the direwolf spotted with blood in the crypts with him...

Oh, I figure that was Grey Wind.

[JNR]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm prepared to go with it using Occam's Razor

Well, that's just it; the concept that R+L=J is simpler doesn't seem objective to me.  

It's a problematic case and dealing with the many problems makes it complex, in a way that reminds me of Hollywood burglars who twist violently and unnaturally in order to escape being touched by roving light beams.