Black Crow

Heresy 202 and still going

405 posts in this topic

31 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I didn't mean an army of the dead, I specifically meant whatever white walkers (or their creators) were leftover after either the end of the LN or the ouster of the NK might have taken refuge in the far, far north, or made it into a stronghold; I'm operating under the assumption that the Others, if their magic were in decline, would be unable to raise the dead, create new WWs, or perhaps even carry the cold winds with them--a set of circumstances that would make them incredibly vulnerable.

I have generally assumed that the Others were either sealed away or rendered magically impotent, and that what we're seeing is a resumption of activity, as opposed to the Others having been a persistent presence in the lands of the Free Folk, and suddenly going hostile in response to some unknown offense.

I'm sorry Matthew.  I don't mean to overpower the conversation.  I don't know how to answer Black Crow's question but your premise seems perfectly logical.^_^  

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8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I have generally assumed that the Others were either sealed away or rendered magically impotent, and that what we're seeing is a resumption of activity, as opposed to the Others having been a persistent presence in the lands of the Free Folk, and suddenly going hostile in response to some unknown offense.

I'm not too sure. If anything fits in the story I would assume it is connected with the Iron Islands and the iron price. 

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10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I hadn't thought of it in the context of the NW vows, but this is the general idea I'm leaning toward with referencing Whitetree's nearness to the Nightfort, and the idea of "godly" men and women being forced to make offerings--that, in the era of the first 13 LCs, the Watch was not only allowing this to happen, but that it may have been the Stark-at-the-Wall (King of Winter?) collecting and converting the tributes into new white walkers.

The CotF failed to stop the incursions of men at the Arm of Dorne, failed again at the Neck, and finally succeeded at the border of the Haunted Forest; or, perhaps, were forced to stop men at the border of the Haunted Forest in response to repeated violations of the Pact. I think there are multiple timelines that could potentially work here.

The Wall divides the realms of men from the last truly pristine deep forest (House Durrandon having claimed the Rain Wood, House Stark the Wolf's Wood, and most of the rest having been destroyed)--the Haunted Forest. Those humans unfortunate enough to find themselves on the wrong side of the Wall were forced to pay the blood toll, or face destruction.

I am also going with the idea of the Wall being a frontier established as exchange for the mutual assistance during the Long Night. During 13 generations the Magnars of the Nighfort were bound to the letter of the pact.

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18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Or more precisely, the heresy from the very beginning of this thread, has been that the Starks were bound in allegiance to the Ice until the Nights King was overthrown by his brother. Now the old Starks, not the long crumbled dead, but the long stark-faced white walkers want to come back and reclaim their own

We see Euron overthrowing his brothers and Theon who is like a brother overthrowing Bran.  Jon is also overthrown by his black brothers. I'm not sure that we can exclude anyone who isn't a Stark, although all of these would qualify as a blood betrayal.   So does the Nights King come into existence before or after he is overthrown?  Is this when the kings of winter/white walkers come?  In response to the blood betrayal and in defense of the Wall and/or the Night's King? 

It is curious that the crown of the king of winter is a circlet holding nine iron swords and the place where Jon take his vow is a grove of nine weirwoods.  It's also curious that the kingsguard comes into being during the reign of Aegon I.  Did Aegon take the iron crown, the iron throne and the kingsguard from Torrhen Stark?   It can't be coincidence that the vow of the NW and the KG are so similar of that the white shield of their sigil is literally a table made of weirwood.  Their number is seven represented by their banner, a crown surrounded by seven swords.  The obvious parallel is that the king of winter is surrounded by nine swords.  

We also have the black shield and the white shield united in the vow of the Night's Watch which includes the old vow of the watch used to open the Black Gate and the vow of the Kingsguard.  Which coincidently, adds up to sixteen, the number of Robert's bastards of which seven are known and nine are not.

 

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20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Building on some of what's been said above I'm certain dubious of the Heart of Winter being a geographical location, and given the Scooby Gang's journey into the Heart of Darkness, I'd equate it with the heart of the house of the undying. Its a vision or rather series of visions of past and present, or futures that will happen and futures that may not and its those futures which make Bran cry out in terror

I agree.  The Sidhes made of ice could still exist in a diminished capacity like the undying.  That's a great parallel between Bran and Dany.

Edited:  The banshee reminds me of the prologue of GoT and the screaming swords.  Also the weeping women or women weeping tears of blood.  And Lyanna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee

Edited by LynnS

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7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Did Aegon take [...] the iron throne [...] from Torrhen Stark?  

I found the quote in my signature yesterday and ever since I am wondering about the english language. 

...and set Bran in the high seat of the Starks, where the Lords of Winterfell had sat since the days when they called themselves the Kings in the North. The seat was cold stone, polished smooth by countless bottoms; the carved heads of direwolves snarled on the ends of its massive arms.

Is the since including or excluding the Kings in the North ? What's with the Kings of Winter ? 

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47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

[...]It's also curious that the kingsguard comes into being during the reign of Aegon I.  Did Aegon take the iron crown, the iron throne and the kingsguard from Torrhen Stark?   It can't be coincidence that the vow of the NW and the KG are so similar of that the white shield of their sigil is literally a table made of weirwood.  [...]

Visenya modelled the vows of the KG on the vows of the NW. Not sure about the origins of the weirwood table; but they ended with 7 white shadows sitting around a piece of weirwood.

Edited by Tucu

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I don't understand the 7. There are 8 at the time of Vysenia:

-North
-Riverlands
-Westerlands
-Vale
-Reach
-Stormlands
-Iron Islands
- and the Crownlands from regions of the Reach, the Riverlands and the Stormlands.

Then there are the Lordships:

- Dragonstone
- Cracklaw Point

and finally a century later:

- Dorne

 

Plus there is no KG from the North. Is there one from the Vale or the Iron Islands ?

Edited by SirArthur

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9 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't understand the 7. There are 8 at the time of Vysenia:

-North
-Riverlands
-Westerlands
-Vale
-Reach
-Stormlands
-Iron Islands
- and the Crownlands from regions of the Reach, the Riverlands and the Stormlands.

Then there are the Lordships:

- Dragonstone
- Cracklaw Point

and finally a century later:

- Dorne

 

Plus there is no KG from the North. Is there one from the Vale or the Iron Islands ?

The Iron Islands and the Riverlands were part of one kingdom ruled by the King of the Isles and the Rivers. And the Crownlands were not a kingdom.

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30 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Iron Islands and the Riverlands were part of one kingdom ruled by the King of the Isles and the Rivers. And the Crownlands were not a kingdom.

Yeah but the King of the Isles and Rivers is a double title uniting 2 Kingdoms.

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32 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Yeah but the King of the Isles and Rivers is a double title uniting 2 Kingdoms.

Each of the 7 kingdoms rised from the lands taken from the other petty kingdoms. At the time of Aegon I there were 6 kings and one princess.

Edited by Tucu

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22 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Each of the 7 kingdoms raised from the lands taken from the other petty kingdoms. At the time of Aegon I there were 6 kings and one princess.

I somehow doubt that there is a deeper meaning for 7 + 9 = 16 under these conditions.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

We see Euron overthrowing his brothers and Theon who is like a brother overthrowing Bran.  Jon is also overthrown by his black brothers. I'm not sure that we can exclude anyone who isn't a Stark, although all of these would qualify as a blood betrayal.   So does the Nights King come into existence before or after he is overthrown?  Is this when the kings of winter/white walkers come?  In response to the blood betrayal and in defense of the Wall and/or the Night's King? 

It is curious that the crown of the king of winter is a circlet holding nine iron swords and the place where Jon take his vow is a grove of nine weirwoods.  It's also curious that the kingsguard comes into being during the reign of Aegon I.  Did Aegon take the iron crown, the iron throne and the kingsguard from Torrhen Stark?   It can't be coincidence that the vow of the NW and the KG are so similar of that the white shield of their sigil is literally a table made of weirwood.  Their number is seven represented by their banner, a crown surrounded by seven swords.  The obvious parallel is that the king of winter is surrounded by nine swords.  

We also have the black shield and the white shield united in the vow of the Night's Watch which includes the old vow of the watch used to open the Black Gate and the vow of the Kingsguard.  Which coincidently, adds up to sixteen, the number of Robert's bastards of which seven are known and nine are not.

 

I know you are already familiar with my inversion theory, so won't go too far into that, but basically what you've noticed is an undoing or reversing of history. Jon doesn't become the Nights King until after he was overthrown and resurrected. That way he can take his "ensorcelled" Nights Watch and attack and win Winterfell and assume the position of King of Winter.

The crown is a physical reminder that the Kings of Winter were defeated and warded, the iron swords surrounding bronze means that their magical power is/was suppressed or warded.

 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I found the quote in my signature yesterday and ever since I am wondering about the english language. 

...and set Bran in the high seat of the Starks, where the Lords of Winterfell had sat since the days when they called themselves the Kings in the North. The seat was cold stone, polished smooth by countless bottoms; the carved heads of direwolves snarled on the ends of its massive arms.

Is the since including or excluding the Kings in the North ? What's with the Kings of Winter ? 

The Kings of Winter were different than both King in the North and Lord of Winterfell. IMO the Kings of Winter were possibly undead like the Nights King and only ruled during winter.

 

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I don't understand the 7. There are 8 at the time of Vysenia:

-North
-Riverlands
-Westerlands
-Vale
-Reach
-Stormlands
-Iron Islands
- and the Crownlands from regions of the Reach, the Riverlands and the Stormlands.

Then there are the Lordships:

- Dragonstone
- Cracklaw Point

and finally a century later:

- Dorne

 

Plus there is no KG from the North. Is there one from the Vale or the Iron Islands ?

From the wiki - the Seven Kingdoms:

 

House Stark.svg Torrhen Stark, King in the North.
House Arryn.svg Ronnel Arryn, King of Mountain and Vale.
Hoare.png Harren Hoare, King of the Isles and the Rivers.
House Lannister.svg Loren I Lannister, King of the Rock.
House Gardener.svg Mern IX Gardener, King of the Reach.
House Baratheon.svg Argilac Durrandon, the Storm King.
House Martell.svg Meria Martell, Princess of Dorne.

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I found the quote in my signature yesterday and ever since I am wondering about the english language. 

...and set Bran in the high seat of the Starks, where the Lords of Winterfell had sat since the days when they called themselves the Kings in the North. The seat was cold stone, polished smooth by countless bottoms; the carved heads of direwolves snarled on the ends of its massive arms.

Is the since including or excluding the Kings in the North ? What's with the Kings of Winter ? 

Something significant we don't yet know. Maege Mormont sets things running when all the other fools proclaiming Robb Stark as King in the North and she instead pipes up with King of Winter. It doesn't sound very accidental.

The best guess so far in these here parts is that the Starks were Kings of Winter until the Stark of Winterfell unseated his brother the Nights King and locked the tombs with cold iron. 

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Changing the subject only very slightly, I did suggest earlier that the dead Stark Lords might have been able to lead a second life as white walkers. The swords, we are told, were placed there to keep them in their graves. Does the cold iron sever or block the connection between bones and ice?

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19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

From the wiki - the Seven Kingdoms:

And it quotes World of Ice and Fire ... and mentions the monarchs, not the kingdoms. If we go by the earth history we have the King of England and Ireland from 1603 until 1800 although Ireland still existed as a Kingdom until 1800. And we have the King of Scotland. All titles hold by the same person. And only at least 2 acts of unions merged the Kingdoms. 

However the Ironlanders (let's call them this way) only ruled for 3 generations, succeeding the Storm Kings.

 

edit: And this is somehow the general problem. There may be a Kingdom of the Mountain(s). We don't know. 

Edited by SirArthur

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29 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Something significant we don't yet know. Maege Mormont sets things running when all the other fools proclaiming Robb Stark as King in the North and she instead pipes up with King of Winter. It doesn't sound very accidental.

The best guess so far in these here parts is that the Starks were Kings of Winter until the Stark of Winterfell unseated his brother the Nights King and locked the tombs with cold iron. 

I may read too exactly here but I see a prussian situation. Bran said the throne was there since the Lords of Winterfell styled themselves King in the North. They are the King in the North, not the King of the North. However there is a King of Winter. The text also suggests that there were Lords of Winterfell before Bran the Bad. 

Conclusion: There is a king of winter out there and his is the kingdom of winter. 

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Changing the subject only very slightly, I did suggest earlier that the dead Stark Lords might have been able to lead a second life as white walkers. The swords, we are told, were placed there to keep them in their graves. Does the cold iron sever or block the connection between bones and ice?

It somehow sounds like the "Lord of Winterfell" as a crown prince title. And since Lady Dustin wants to prevent Ned's bones to reach the crypts... does that mean he resurrects as King of Winter ? Or is it Robb after all ? 

Edited by SirArthur

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Changing the subject only very slightly, I did suggest earlier that the dead Stark Lords might have been able to lead a second life as white walkers. The swords, we are told, were placed there to keep them in their graves. Does the cold iron sever or block the connection between bones and ice?

I can't answer that but I have a somehow related question. Did the Stark lose their Kings of Winter powers when they started using/making iron swords? The world book tells us that the First Men were still using bronze weapons when the Andals arrived to the Reach:

Quote

The Three Sage Kings also found lands and lordships for the more powerful of the Andal kings descending on the Reach, in return for pledges of fealty. The Gardeners sought after Andal craftsmen as well and encouraged their lords bannermen to do the same. Blacksmiths and stonemasons in particular were handsomely rewarded. The former taught the First Men to arm and armor themselves in iron in place of bronze; the latter helped them strengthen the defenses of their castles and holdfasts.

 

Edited by Tucu

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I always assumed bronze supports fire and iron supports ice. But if iron dampens ice and fire and bronze supports ice and fire ... the Iron Throne is literally the reason there are no dragons. 

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The binding powers of cold iron are straight out of pretty mainstream Faerie lore, bronze or rather the copper and tin which its composed of are conductors

Edited by Black Crow
spelling

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