Heresy 202 and still going

[LynnS]

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Sansa V and Sansa VII

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don't kill me, she wanted to scream, please don't. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy,

save our sons from war, we pray,

stay the swords and stay the arrows,

let them know a better day.

Gentle Mother, strength of women,

help our daughters through this fray,

soothe the wrath and tame the fury,

teach us all a kinder way.

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking.

 

Sansa, a musical instrument made of wood, iron and copper:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=600259&partId=1

 

[SirArthur]

So Lord Commander 999 will be the peak of the song ? The (3+3+3)(3+3+3)(3+3+3) ? 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

So Lord Commander 999 will be the peak of the song ? The (3+3+3)(3+3+3)(3+3+3) ? 

LOL!  I don't have a clue.  Three comes up in Dany's narrative again and again.  Everything begins with 3 notes or 3 chords and progresses from there.  For example; Mormont's Raven and his 3 corns progressing to corn king jon snow.  Text that is repeated with slight modification or addition.  Earworms and repetition are meant to draw our attention.   Something that has been referred to an echo or mirror in the text.  Earworms seem to be specific to certain characters (Jon: eye,eye,eye and Sam: the wall, the wall, the wall); a part of the song they have heard  and linked by a word, something intrinsic to that character's narrative.

North and north and north comes is repeated in both Bran's and Sansa's POV while Bran surveys the land in his coma dream and Sansa surveys the land from atop a tower.  Bran's destination is the heart of winter; while Sansa's is Winterfell.  They are connected but we haven't been given the frame in which to view the connection.  Or perhaps the connection is buried in the snow and we've missed something.      

[SirArthur]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

North and north and north comes is repeated in both Bran's and Sansa's POV while Bran surveys the land in his coma dream and Sansa surveys the land from atop a tower.  Bran's destination is the heart of winter; while Sansa's is Winterfell.  They are connected but we haven't been given the frame in which to view the connection.  Or perhaps the connection is buried in the snow and we've missed something.      

In the prologue they ride north, north-west and north again. 

Also there are three that ride north. We have three active forts of the NW. Similar:

• A single horn blast is used to herald arriving brothers of the Watch. Two horn blasts seem to warn of attack
• Three horn blasts have not been sounded in thousands of years 
• Three horn blasts warn of the Others approaching
  
  -> Arriving brothers who want to attack the wall are three horns ?
  -> The Others are the NW ?

Maybe there is a second Wall north and north and north again. And the members wear white. 

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Numerology played a part in the 7 color spectrum.   Most people see red, orange,  yellow,  green,  blue and violet.   But 6 was associated with the devil and 7 with God, so people looked really hard to see indigo.

Interesting.  Also so much confusion about eye color when it comes to a blue so dark; we're not sure if it's purple or blue.

[SirArthur]

Is there a Stannis connection to the three ?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Is there a Stannis connection to the three ?

I'm not sure.  What is interesting is that he is described as iron, while Robert is true steel.  Here's an interesting quote about metals representing people(s):
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

Maester Aemon touched his own collar lightly, his bony, wrinkled finger stroking the heavy metal links. "Go on."

"He told me that a maester's collar is made of chain to remind him that he is sworn to serve," Jon said, remembering. "I asked why each link was a different metal. A silver chain would look much finer with his grey robes, I said. Maester Luwin laughed. A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft. And he said there were other meanings as well. The collar is supposed to remind a maester of the realm he serves, isn't that so? Lords are gold and knights steel, but two links can't make a chain. You also need silver and iron and lead, tin and copper and bronze and all the rest, and those are farmers and smiths and merchants and the like. A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people."

 

 

If a crown of bronze and iron are the metals of winter; do they also represent a marriage alliance?  

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure.  What is interesting is that he is described as iron, while Robert is true steel.  Here's an interesting quote about metals representing people(s):
 

 

If a crown of bronze and iron are the metals of winter; do they also represent a marriage alliance?  

Bronze is itself an amalgam of copper and tin, so adding iron to bronze wouldn't necessarily imply a marriage but would be consistent with the binding of the peoples - or warriors of a kingdom; say the old [bronze] and the new [iron]

[SirArthur]

What I don't understand concerning the crown: The First men are said to be represented by bronze and the North is more or less ruled by First Men families. Where is the iron coming from ? From all the andal 7Faith worshipers at the Watch ?

[Black Crow]

35 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

What I don't understand concerning the crown: The First men are said to be represented by bronze and the North is more or less ruled by First Men families. Where is the iron coming from ? From all the andal 7Faith worshipers at the Watch ?

In the first place prestige. The First Men aren't "represented" by bronze. They happened to have bronze when they tooled across to Westeros and defeated the tree huggers, but moved with the times and acquired iron and steel as and when it became available. You have eccentrics like Bronze Yon Royce and his bronze armour but he's very much the exception, hence the nickname. Everybody else has steel. It will have been the same back in the day. Those who could afford it bought or otherwise acquired steel, both for slaying their enemies and as a status symbol, looking down on those who didn't.

Secondly and the whole story has yet to be revealed to us, there also appears to have been a policy of acquiring cold iron [not necessarily steel] for its magic qualities.

Anyway, the point is that there's nothing untoward or mysterious about the Stark kings having iron and steel

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Anyway, the point is that there's nothing untoward or mysterious about the Stark kings having iron and steel

My question was more why they have it. Or bronze for that matter. And not steel. or rubies. Or gold or silver. 

[Black Crow]

Ah, I see... Its because they are hard men

[Tucu]

52 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

My question was more why they have it. Or bronze for that matter. And not steel. or rubies. Or gold or silver. 

Explained by Cat in this quote:

Quote

Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

Strong tools and weapons are more important that luxuries during winter.

[JNR]

On 9/22/2017 at 10:26 AM, Black Crow said:

The reference to the Vale was the business of the Andals conquering it with steel, long before they set to against the rest of Westeros; my argument being that the technology gap may not have been so one sided by the time they did

Well, on that point it seems we agree.  We also apparently disagree with the World book, which says:

Quote

Sweeping through the Vale with fire and sword, the Andals began their conquest of Westeros. Their (1) iron weapons and armor surpassed the bronze with which the First Men still fought, and many First Men perished in this war. It was a war—or a series of many wars—which likely lasted for (3) decades.

I think it's more likely that 

1) The Andals brought steel weapons to Westeros, not iron

2) The First Men may well have had iron weapons by this point in time, not bronze

3) The Andals needed more time even than decades -- the south of Westeros is a big place, and the First Men had many significant advantages

And given the time required for 3), and the exceptional motive the First Men would have had, it does seem plausible to me that the First Men learned the secret of steel before the Andals had finished with the south.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Strong tools and weapons are more important that luxuries during winter.

I have the feeling we are in a loop. I guess steel is not a winter metal while some copper alloy is. And gemstones are not winter metals because only the Others use crystal swords. This is going nowhere. Back to Jon, the 3-lettered Wall commander. 

And I want to discuss Stannis becoming LC 999. There are good hints for it (Nightfort) and I definitly can see it coming. Once he looses wife and kid he could take the Black. Stannis is just .... to straight for the books. Maybe it is his plan and everything goes in that direction ... and then something goes wrong. 

[Black Crow]

There's no "loop" involved. That passage quoted by Tuccu is very explicit. As I said moments before, the Starks were hard men and their kingship was represented by bronze and iron not the glittering decadence of gemstones - steel at the end of the day is an improved version of iron.

Craster's boys have swords made of ice, not rock crystal.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, on that point it seems we agree.  We also apparently disagree with the World book, which says:

I think it's more likely that 

1) The Andals brought steel weapons to Westeros, not iron

2) The First Men may well have had iron weapons by this point in time, not bronze

3) The Andals needed more time even than decades -- the south of Westeros is a big place, and the First Men had many significant advantages

And given the time required for 3), and the exceptional motive the First Men would have had, it does seem plausible to me that the First Men learned the secret of steel before the Andals had finished with the south.

We do seem to be in agreement  although I'd qualify your three points by saying that that this kind of technology tends to filter top down, ie; the Andals first tooled up with Iron weapons, but their kings, nobles and knights had steel - in fact that same distinction is still being made in "modern" Westerosi armies. Similarly I'd suggest that there was a similar situation on the other side with most being armed with bronze, but the leaders having iron and later steel. Whether they learned how to make steel or simply traded or captured it is moot.

A minor point I will make though is that its not just a matter of metal, but of what you can and can't do with it. Bronze is soft and is moulded rather than wrought, This means it won't take an edge and is normally thicker and heavier than a comparable sized iron or steel blade. This in turn means that for entirely practical reasons bronze weapons are normally short leaf shaped blades intended for thrusting not cutting. They normally appear therefore as spear heads or as short stabbing swords. [you can have bronze hand axes but larger ones become problematic due to the weight]  The use of Iron and steel allows for longer cutting and slashing blades. The point therefore being that the alteration in technology impacts on the tactics.

 

[SirArthur]

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. Speaking fo Stannis.  - Prologue 

 

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

steel at the end of the day is an improved version of iron.

And GRRM knows that bronze is an alloy. Same as steel is an alloy.

Around his thin neck his chain hung heavy, gold and silver links glinting amongst iron, lead, tin, and other base metals. 

"Aye, my lady. The Thenns have lords and laws." They know how to kneel. "They mine tin and copper for bronze,forge their own arms and armor instead of stealing it.

 

It is a loop. Example: when I ask you what the red in the soviet flag stands for, the answer is "The Bolsheviks". But why do the Bs use red ? That is the question I'm asking. What is the meaning of the red ? And then we search for it. It's a homage to the Paris Commune. And we go further. their flag is again a homage to the the French revolution. And on and on we go through the centuries. From one revolt to another. But the meaning is lost. And if Cat declares it the "metals of winter" it is not helping in the question why they are the metals of winter. Why metal. Why winter. When we know that the Others associated with Winter user other weapons. It's a loop because at some point someone will mention "it stand for the Bolsheviks." And I'm back at the beginning. 

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. Speaking fo Stannis.  - Prologue 

 

And GRRM knows that bronze is an alloy. Same as steel is an alloy.

Around his thin neck his chain hung heavy, gold and silver links glinting amongst iron, lead, tin, and other base metals. 

"Aye, my lady. The Thenns have lords and laws." They know how to kneel. "They mine tin and copper for bronze,forge their own arms and armor instead of stealing it.

 

It is a loop. Example: when I ask you what the red in the soviet flag stands for, the answer is "The Bolsheviks". But why do the Bs use red ? That is the question I'm asking. What is the meaning of the red ? And then we search for it. It's a homage to the Paris Commune. And we go further. their flag is again a homage to the the French revolution. And on and on we go through the centuries. From one revolt to another. But the meaning is lost. And if Cat declares it the "metals of winter" it is not helping in the question why they are the metals of winter. Why metal. Why winter. When we know that the Others associated with Winter user other weapons. It's a loop because at some point someone will mention "it stand for the Bolsheviks." And I'm back at the beginning. 

It is not a loop, it is a sign that winter dominates the way of life in the North. Jewels and precious metals have little real and symbolic value once winter arrives, strong metals have high real and symbolic value. During winter if someone comes unarmed and wants to buy scarce food with gold, you take the gold and eat him.

[Black Crow]

21 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. . 

 

 

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

 

Shaw: Do you know what substance an Other sword is made from.

Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.