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Lady Noble

Attempting Wheel of Time series...

90 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah, that's a good example too

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I don't think that was quite as egregious because at least in that case the Trollocs were attacking a fortified and prepared enemy, the defenders were very hard pressed for many days, and there were significant Two Rivers casualties. Plus there were two Aes Sedai there as well who were essential in the defense. 

But overall, if the Trollocs were actually 7-9 feet tall as depicted, their superior strength and reach would give them an overwhelming advantage in a melee fight. 

 

Spoiler

In terms of personality, Trollocs were characterized as cowardly and having weak morale without Fades to take control of them. Even with a Fade, they might not have been able to make the most of their physical superiority due to their psychological weaknesses. To account for why they lost against characters who couldn't channel, it's important to remember that two of the main military leaders in the series (Mat and Perrin) had taveren protection that might have extended to their armies as a whole.

Personally, I felt Trollocs were silly from the moment they attacked the Two Rivers in EoTW. The scene with Narg felt like something written for YAs to me.

 

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I've attempted to get into WoT a number of times now and never gotten past halfway in the first book. My most recent, concerted effort I did get past a few prose clunks at the beginning of the series and started to enjoy it, thought I'd finally finish that book at least, but after the umpteenth time the characters did something completely and utterly stupid I just gave in. Not for me. It's a hole in my fantasy meganerd resume, for sure, but...

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One thing that WoT does do well is actually portray the teenage characters as actual teenagers who make really stupid decisions and choose the most awkward moments for a strop or a moment of self-absorption. What some found less plausible, especially when it came out, is the number of adult characters who also make stupid decisions and are blinded by ideology to reason...although as I get older that also becomes more convincing.

The most awkward thing about WoT remains the relationship between the sexes, which stays at a juvenile level even for the older characters. At the same time, it is one of the few fantasy series which has something to say about gender interrelationships, and was one of the first to really push the idea of women having agency and power in a fantasy world and providing a rationale for it that was quite convincing. In that sense the series is of its time, although it was fortunate not to be published later and get the full blowback of the anti-feminist movement (as it stands the loathing and hatred of Egwene for "being a Mary Stu" and giving Rand a free pass for being even more of one is quite eye-opening).

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17 minutes ago, Werthead said:

One thing that WoT does do well is actually portray the teenage characters as actual teenagers who make really stupid decisions and choose the most awkward moments for a strop or a moment of self-absorption. What some found less plausible, especially when it came out, is the number of adult characters who also make stupid decisions and are blinded by ideology to reason...although as I get older that also becomes more convincing.

The most awkward thing about WoT remains the relationship between the sexes, which stays at a juvenile level even for the older characters. At the same time, it is one of the few fantasy series which has something to say about gender interrelationships, and was one of the first to really push the idea of women having agency and power in a fantasy world and providing a rationale for it that was quite convincing. In that sense the series is of its time, although it was fortunate not to be published later and get the full blowback of the anti-feminist movement (as it stands the loathing and hatred of Egwene for "being a Mary Stu" and giving Rand a free pass for being even more of one is quite eye-opening).

Spoiler

Even so, the main protagonists were generally in their older teens-early twenties but acted so much younger than that. Rand, Mat and Perrin going into Shadar Logoth was eye roll inducing!

I feel that the worst examples of the relations between the sexes were Tylin/Mat and Perrin/Faile. Thanks to Tylin/Mat, Jordan remains the only fantasy author I know of who tried to pass off rape as funny. Perrin/Faile felt like an abusive relationship to me. Faile had no respect for who Perrin was as a person. She physically abused him by slapping him (granted, Perrin literally spanked her in return, which probably oversteps the boundaries of self-defense.) I almost felt like Berelain was a better fit for Perrin as a result, which is most certainly not what Jordan intended.

 

Edited by Cithrin's Ale

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14 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I've attempted to get into WoT a number of times now and never gotten past halfway in the first book. My most recent, concerted effort I did get past a few prose clunks at the beginning of the series and started to enjoy it, thought I'd finally finish that book at least, but after the umpteenth time the characters did something completely and utterly stupid I just gave in. Not for me. It's a hole in my fantasy meganerd resume, for sure, but...

There's how many, 14 WoT books? I couldn't make it past three and that was a bit of a stretch. First one was a huge LotR rip-off (even though some Jordan fans I've talked to are adamant it was an homage), I don't even remember anything about book two (including the title) and I liked the third one was so much I decided to stop after that one.

I'd rather have everyone forever consider my "fantasy meganerd resume" lacking than go through another 11 books of that.

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I think one of the reasons I enjoyed the series so much when I first read it is because I started at a young age. I got the first 10 books as a gift when I was twelve, and at that time the only other fantasy novels I had read were Lord of the Rings. I agree that one of the things that can make them tedious for new readers, is trying to read them after having already read.... I guess you could say "more advanced" fantasy novels.

Edited by A True Kaniggit

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I didn't have problem with it being "less developed" but after reading The Dragon Reborn I didn't get the impression that story moved forward in any significant way. I mean, Matt beat some knights with his quarterstaff, Perrin's eyes getting a bit more yellow, Rand turning out to have blood of that desert people I can't remember the name of and girls bitching about their Aes Sedai training is just not enough for me*. It just felt like a big waste of time, reading hundreds of pages and ending up in pretty much the same place you started from.

*It's been over 10 years since I've read it, so my memory may be off.

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Quote

 

First one was a huge LotR rip-off (even though some Jordan fans I've talked to are adamant it was an homage)

 

It came from the publisher. The original start of the series was very different (Tam was the main character, a world-weary war veteran who discovered he was the "chosen one" much later in life) but the publisher convinced RJ to make it "more like LotR" for commercial reasons. He went a bit too overboard with that and massively reigned it in: after the Myrddraal/Black Riders and Shadar Logoth/Moria the series very quickly moves away from being anything like LotR (maybe the Green Man/Treebeard, but the Green Man is a actually a nod to the Arthurian legend rather than Tolkien).

Actually, the original original outline was a lot more heavy metal, with the Forsaken being half-demons, the Dark One actually being an alien from another dimension and a lot of other crazy stuff that RJ moved away from.

Edited by Werthead

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I got halfway through before I had to stop and haven't yet resumed. I really need to.

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On 9/22/2017 at 5:39 AM, A True Kaniggit said:

I think one of the reasons I enjoyed the series so much when I first read it is because I started at a young age. I got the first 10 books as a gift when I was twelve, and at that time the only other fantasy novels I had read were Lord of the Rings. I agree that one of the things that can make them tedious for new readers, is trying to read them after having already read.... I guess you could say "more advanced" fantasy novels.

Agree. 

I read the Shannara books as a kid and I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for them even though objectively I know they're not very good. 

On the other side of the coin, I first read LOTR as an adult and while they were "fine" I guess, I don't really see why people love them so much except for maybe the nostalgia value.

 

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7 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

Agree. 

I read the Shannara books as a kid and I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for them even though objectively I know they're not very good. 

On the other side of the coin, I first read LOTR as an adult and while they were "fine" I guess, I don't really see why people love them so much except for maybe the nostalgia value.

 

Hobbit is better than LotR. :P

And hey I still have my Elf Queen of Shannara I got signed in person as a wee lad.

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I've always felt that the real achievement in the Wheel of TIme is the world, rather than the plot or the characters. There are a couple of genuinely interesting characters, but it was always the history of the world, the precision with which the magic/metaphysics worked, and the world building in general that I enjoyed. I mean, there's a Cold War reference in the first book, if you look deep enough.

 

As someone who's a LotR fan but thinks that the Silmarillion is the better work, I enjoyed having pieces of the Silmarillion equivalent scattered through the series.

 

Moiraine's story in Emond's Field at the start of the Eye of the World was always where I got hooked.

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I am currently reading the Eye of the World and I dont like it very much. I feel the characters are all same same and that the story has taken too long to start. 

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Might be a knock off but I love Eye of the World.  I spent the bulk of my time with books 2-10 hoping to replicate the book one experience, but it never clicked aside from a smaller section here and there.  It's a series I wanted to love, I suppose.    

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So many replies! That's why I love it here, :).

 

So, I'm about halfway through Book 1. It's picked up. I'm actually somewhat attached to a few of the characters and I don't trust Moraine. I don't think she's evil, but I don't think she's good, either. She obviously has a hidden agenda, but I see a lot of Melisandre in her. I thinks he's going to get blindsided by SOMETHING.

I do hope the minor characters (Rand's friends who's names I can't even remember right now) get more depth to them. Like Samwise and Samwell... They were minor, but we LOVED them even though they were mostly for support. 

If anyone wants to spoil the following for me, please do:

The coin Moraine gave them all. That's going to have some play, yes?

Please say Bela (Rand's horse) doesn't die... I can't handle that lol

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12 hours ago, Isildur's Mane said:

I am currently reading the Eye of the World and I dont like it very much. I feel the characters are all same same and that the story has taken too long to start. 

Maybe we can PM each other now and then and discuss? Where abouts are you?

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14 minutes ago, Lady Noble said:

So many replies! That's why I love it here, :).

 

So, I'm about halfway through Book 1. It's picked up. I'm actually somewhat attached to a few of the characters and I don't trust Moraine. I don't think she's evil, but I don't think she's good, either. She obviously has a hidden agenda, but I see a lot of Melisandre in her. I thinks he's going to get blindsided by SOMETHING.

I do hope the minor characters (Rand's friends who's names I can't even remember right now) get more depth to them. Like Samwise and Samwell... They were minor, but we LOVED them even though they were mostly for support. 

If anyone wants to spoil the following for me, please do:

The coin Moraine gave them all. That's going to have some play, yes?

Please say Bela (Rand's horse) doesn't die... I can't handle that lol

Spoiler

Yes, there is a reason Moiraine gave Rand, Perrin and Mat coins. Read and Find Out :) I don't want to spoil anything about Bela. She became a bit of a fan favorite on the forums at Dragonmount when I used to frequent them.

 

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7 minutes ago, Astromech said:
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Yes, there is a reason Moiraine gave Rand, Perrin and Mat coins. Read and Find Out :) I don't want to spoil anything about Bela. She became a bit of a fan favorite on the forums at Dragonmount when I used to frequent them.

 

Honestly, I think I'm most attached to the horse at this point, lol. Does she last throughout all of the books or more of the books? After GOT I'm paranoid everyone is gonna die. I tried Dragonmount before posting here and it just isn't as active.

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:) Keep reading. I will say Jordan is not as expendable with his characters as GRRM is.

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1 hour ago, Lady Noble said:

So, I'm about halfway through Book 1...

I do hope the minor characters (Rand's friends who's names I can't even remember right now) get more depth to them. Like Samwise and Samwell... They were minor, but we LOVED them even though they were mostly for support.

You're probably at the point where characters other than Rand start getting PoV chapters? There's a lot more about characters other than Rand in future books, though it comes too late in at least one case.

Spoiler

We needed to know Mat better before Shadar Logoth!

 

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