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Why is Dany still in Essos?


Tyrion1991

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Readers have different expectations for Dany:

  • I don't care her plotline
  • She must stay in Essos. I like Essos very much.
  • She must play game of thrones with Lannisters, (f)Aegon, LF and Varys in Westeros.
  • She must fight against the Others.

Is there any way to meet all readers' expectations? NO. So the only way for GRRM is to write his story as he planned and the story demands. Unfortunately, Daenerys will not meet every fucking character in Westeros but she will save them.

 

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4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Because GRRM likes to think of himself as "gardener" (as opposed to "architect"). Who, sadly, has never heard of things like pruning. So every plant that's already in his "garden" (or a wild, untended jungle) will get to grow uninhibited to the end of its natural life cycle and then some, no matter how useless and tasteless the fruit.

Looks as if he took under considerations how would it look if he cut Slavers Bay storyline short (probably mildly unsatisfying and with appearance of poor construction), but failed to notice that prolonging the Meereneese agony had the very same effect, if not worse.

We can't say if pruning was necessary or not until he releases Winds. If he actually wants Dany to reach Westeros and play a major role there by the end of the series, then yes, it will be very challenging for him not to make her journey seem entirely plot-driven and unsatisfying. At the very least he would have misjudged the length of the series again and we will get another title added before Dream. But this is by no means mandatory.

Dany doesn't have any solid reason to cut her current arc short and abruptly head to Westeros*. Neither does Arya for that matter. But the impending Zombie Apocalypse the OP is dreading so much would be a very good reason for the characters over in Westeros to cut their current arcs short and head to Essos instead. The Zombie Apocalypse has been hinted at since the beginning of the series, so it would not feel contrived at all if it finally happens and it has a huge impact - not as the actual endgame, but as a means to move a chunk of the plot in a different direction. If the endgame of the series takes place in Essos, then Dance doesn't have a pruning problem; it is merely setting up plots, locations and factions for the following books.

 

*Actually, there are at least three potential plot devices that George can use to make Dany head to Westeros quickly, but neither of them is very satisfying. The way I see it, they are:

1. She simply decides she can't be arsed with fixing Essos anymore and scrams. You can argue she is considering this when she has that Jorah vision in the grasslands, but i prefer to look at that as a "moment of doubt the Heroine has when she reaches her lowest point" rather than "sudden realization that Jorah was right all along".

Doing this would put the character in a very bad light and it would be contradictory to her earlier development. What's the point of refusing Xaro's ships if she's going to break her commitment later anyway? Why have that scene at all, when you can avoid the contradiction simply by not giving her a choice - i.e., say she isn't leaving Meereen because the slavers would hunt her down for revenge.

2. She finds out about Aegon and goes to rescue or confront him. Again, this isn't really consistent with how the character is portrayed. Her answer to Quentin's proposal suggests she wouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction and change all her plans because of something happening half a world away.

3. She goes to rescue the dragon Victarion will steal. I think this is the most believable of the three, but it's still a knee-jerk reaction to something that can't be fixed in an obvious way. Sure, she probably cares more about her dragons than about Aegon, but what can she realistically do if she loses one? When Drogon left, she didn't go after him. How will she track him? How does she know he didn't go willingly or that whoever took him won't use the magic horn to enslave the other two? And most importantly, a rescue mission for her dragon is not the same thing as taking her whole army to Westeros for an invasion. Why would she take the Dothraki with her to hunt pirates? They're really bad at that.

Ultimately, I don't think she will be influenced by any of these things (or any combination of them), though I suppose George has the path open to him if he really really wants her to change course.

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1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

We can't say if pruning was necessary or not until he releases Winds. If he actually wants Dany to reach Westeros and play a major role there by the end of the series, then yes, it will be very challenging for him not to make her journey seem entirely plot-driven and unsatisfying. At the very least he would have misjudged the length of the series again and we will get another title added before Dream. But this is by no means mandatory.

Dany doesn't have any solid reason to cut her current arc short and abruptly head to Westeros*. Neither does Arya for that matter. But the impending Zombie Apocalypse the OP is dreading so much would be a very good reason for the characters over in Westeros to cut their current arcs short and head to Essos instead.

While GRRM has done a lousy job preparing schlepping Dany to Westeros in a timely fashion, in your version he's done a legendary bad job preparing schlepping the rest of the cast to Essos. So your defense boils down to "maybe it's not bad prep work, maybe it's truly epically bad prep work". Which, granted, cannot be ruled out.

But in all seriousness, it doesn't look as if moving the endgame to Essos was in the cards. Everything looks as if he still followed the rough original plan, with three major conflicts: wolf vs lion, living vs dead, dragon vs not-dragon, taking their place in the Seven Kingdoms.

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Danny is already too strongly based off Rand. The differences that set them apart are also the clear reasons for Danny NOT being any sort of hero. If she ends up being a ''Savior'' or ''Uniter'' than not only is ASOIAF now based TOO strongly off of WoT, but the writing around Danny will actually be horrendous. 

There is no ''Main Hero'' in this story. That is part of the author's point and style here and he has said it very often. 

That she would go from one of the biggest threats in the original outline to a Rand type savior, after a few books of being described a certain way, would destroy the series entirely. Both in its structure as well as its theme. 

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7 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

While GRRM has done a lousy job preparing schlepping Dany to Westeros in a timely fashion, in your version he's done a legendary bad job preparing schlepping the rest of the cast to Essos. So your defense boils down to "maybe it's not bad prep work, maybe it's truly epically bad prep work". Which, I grant you, cannot be precluded, but in all seriousness, it doesn't look as if moving the endgame to Essos was in the cards.

It's not really as poorly prepared as you think. The Manderly fleet, the line of credit Jon arranged with the Iron Bank, the presence of two ship captain PoVs in the North, Justin Massey already heading for Essos, Davos day dreaming about sailing east with his sons to see the dragons after Stannis's war is over, the ship of wildling slaves that were freed in Braavos, the potential impact on Arya's storyline if Jon ends up in Braavos with a few thousand refugees, the fact that all the major plot lines in the North are about to wrap up, so we can safely abandon it if need be, unlike Meereen...

A lot of seeds are already planted if George wants to take the story in this direction. I am not 100% convinced that it will, but it is the version I find most plausibly exciting, and the most likely to make sense in only two more books.

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12 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Because GRRM likes to think of himself as "gardener" (as opposed to "architect"). Who, sadly, has never heard of things like pruning. So every plant that's already in his "garden" (or a wild, untended jungle) will get to grow uninhibited to the end of its natural life cycle and then some, no matter how useless and tasteless the fruit.

Looks as if he took under considerations how would it look if he cut Slavers Bay storyline short (probably mildly unsatisfying and with appearance of poor construction), but failed to notice that prolonging the Meereneese agony had the very same effect, if not worse.

That's for sure...

I'll give a radically different take on things. Forgive any jargon, and just ignore it. It's not important, though you could google if you were interested. The CMM (Capability Maturity Model) is a model of processes for software development, with Level 1 (Level 5 akin to nirvana), analogously being appropriate to GRRM - he makes it up as he goes along. He may or may not learn from results, experiences, etc. as he goes on.

In software development (as well as other fields) there is this notion of the "Holy Trinity" of project management. Simplistically, that what you are trying to do; how much time and resources you have for it (resources = GRRM), and how much money you have are all interrelated. It's taking too much time? Add more resources, or reduce the things you are trying to do (that's the main point of adding co-writers, or don't write as much are solutions). Not enough money? Reduce resources or reduce the things you are trying to. Etc. And then there is a quality aspect too? GRRM felt he needed five years of fictional time to achieve a quality result, but as FVR asserted, and I agree, failed.

In all the normal interpretations of this project management paradigm, GRRM seems to control all the tradeoffs, which is not, ultimately good for the final product (the books). That is, they are late, with iffy quality, and the customer is a bit antsy waiting for delivery.

I apologize for not putting even more jargon and buzz words in, but that would take a few hours to hone my post to perfect perfection, and, no doubt, disappoint those who are eagerly waiting for my techno post on the subject.

And, of course, it is ridiculous to compare GRRM's writing process to an engineering discipline, but still...

:D

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On 10/8/2017 at 2:07 PM, The Coconut God said:

*Actually, there are at least three potential plot devices that George can use to make Dany head to Westeros quickly, but neither of them is very satisfying. The way I see it, they are:

There is another possibility, as well:  that the situation in Meereen is decisively settled.  Either Tyrion ends the fighting, and brings about peace, or (more likely) the Volantene fleet turns the tide, and Dany's allies are decisively defeated and forced to flee (probably aboard the Greyjoy fleet).  In both cases, there would be no real reason for Dany to remain.  I think moving the story to Essos is highly unlikely, and would be incredibly unsatisfying. 

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19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

There is another possibility, as well:  that the situation in Meereen is decisively settled.  Either Tyrion ends the fighting, and brings about peace, or (more likely) the Volantene fleet turns the tide, and Dany's allies are decisively defeated and forced to flee (probably aboard the Greyjoy fleet).  In both cases, there would be no real reason for Dany to remain.  I think moving the story to Essos is highly unlikely, and would be incredibly unsatisfying. 

Neither of those situations sounds right to me...

Say she defeats the Ghiscari and leaves someone "trustworthy" to rule Meereen, and maybe Yunkai & New Ghis (which in itself is a dubious resolution - she left someone "trustworthy" in Astapor as well, and it didn't turn out well). That still doesn't resolve the problem of slavery. The demand is still strong from the Free Cities and Qarth, so someone else will specialize on training slaves, or they will just produce them in house. It's a sad, ineffective and unsatisfying Half Measure if you're invested in that plot line at all, and Dany still needs an external trigger such as the three I mentioned to switch her priorities.

If Dany's allies are defeated (I presume you did not mean Dany herself, since she's learning how to ride her dragon and is about to unite the Dothraki), wouldn't she try to avenge them before anything else? Wouldn't she stick to her goal? If the Volantene army burns down Meereen, why wouldn't she move on to Volantis? The slave rebellion there is already set up. Not to mention riding on the back of a loss is a very odd way to move on to a goal that was presumably more difficult and more important to you than the one you just failed to accomplish. She'd be sailing to Westeros like a whipped dog with a fanfare...

Not to mention that I really don't think the Greyjoy and Volantene fleets would be enough for all the Dothraki soldiers and their horses. If both of these forces defect to Dany, she will have all their ships, but also the soldiers, so there would be little extra room. If they fight her and lose or betray her, she wouldn't get all the ships. No doubt many would be destroyed in battle and some would retreat. Going on land is a lot more plausible.

 

And just out of curiosity, why do you think moving the story to Essos would be unsatisfying? Both the Zombie Apocalypse and Dragon Conquest storylines would play out, characters would encounter each other in unexpected ways and the political intrigue would continue in the Free Cities. It sounds very compelling to me...

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On 08/10/2017 at 10:25 PM, Spilledguts said:

Danny is already too strongly based off Rand. The differences that set them apart are also the clear reasons for Danny NOT being any sort of hero. If she ends up being a ''Savior'' or ''Uniter'' than not only is ASOIAF now based TOO strongly off of WoT, but the writing around Danny will actually be horrendous. 

There is no ''Main Hero'' in this story. That is part of the author's point and style here and he has said it very often. 

That she would go from one of the biggest threats in the original outline to a Rand type savior, after a few books of being described a certain way, would destroy the series entirely. Both in its structure as well as its theme. 

Come now.  Dany has been set up to be a game-changer from the first novel, whether you want to see her as a conqueror or a saviour.  The "Mysha" theme in Slaveer's Bay drops a prety big hint but people will believe what they want I suppose.

Having read the WOT I don't see any basis for Dany being based off Rand.  Just because both stories have heroes and heroines and prophecies in them doesn't mean much, particularly as the two series were written contemporaneously.  GRRM is on the record by the way as saying Tad Williams' trilogy Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was what inspired him to write ASOIAF.

On 09/10/2017 at 11:04 PM, The Coconut God said:

Neither of those situations sounds right to me...

And just out of curiosity, why do you think moving the story to Essos would be unsatisfying? Both the Zombie Apocalypse and Dragon Conquest storylines would play out, characters would encounter each other in unexpected ways and the political intrigue would continue in the Free Cities. It sounds very compelling to me...

Having read your comments you seem to be confusing the Meereenese knot with the actual story.  GRRM had to find things for Dany to do in Essos to stop her arriving in Westeros too early and once he had started down that route he has found it harder and harder to break her out of Meereen.  Apparently he hasn't done as bad a job as he thought as the story in Essos is compelling enough for some to consider that it is or could become the real story.  It's true that Victarion and Tyrion have now joined Dany in Slaver's Bay but that seems designed to finally cut the knot and move Dany westwards with all the characters converging in the main theatre in Westeros rather than the all the other povs finding compelling reasons to abandon Westeros.

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On 10/8/2017 at 11:25 PM, Spilledguts said:

Danny is already too strongly based off Rand. The differences that set them apart are also the clear reasons for Danny NOT being any sort of hero. If she ends up being a ''Savior'' or ''Uniter'' than not only is ASOIAF now based TOO strongly off of WoT, but the writing around Danny will actually be horrendous. 

There is no ''Main Hero'' in this story. That is part of the author's point and style here and he has said it very often. 

That she would go from one of the biggest threats in the original outline to a Rand type savior, after a few books of being described a certain way, would destroy the series entirely. Both in its structure as well as its theme. 

Oh dear, it's another of those "ASoIAF is a complete unapologetic plagiarism of WoT" posts, isn't it? And here I hoped they were gone for good... :crying:

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6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Having read your comments you seem to be confusing the Meereenese knot with the actual story.  GRRM had to find things for Dany to do in Essos to stop her arriving in Westeros too early and once he had started down that route he has found it harder and harder to break her out of Meereen.  Apparently he hasn't done as bad a job as he thought as the story in Essos is compelling enough for some to consider that it is or could become the real story.  It's true that Victarion and Tyrion have now joined Dany in Slaver's Bay but that seems designed to finally cut the knot and move Dany westwards with all the characters converging in the main theatre in Westeros rather than the all the other povs finding compelling reasons to abandon Westeros.

I don't think I am confusing anything. You, on the other hand, are falling for as very widespread logical fallacy with that argument I bolded.

This is a series that first earned its fame for being subversive. In fact, here's a quote from George that conveniently rose up in a recent thread:

"I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero ... sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father ... So immediately killing Robb became the next thing I had to do."

This is the author himself telling you that if a plot line is blatantly obvious, he's going to want to take in a different direction... And yet you take it as absolute truth that Dany has to invade Westeros because that's what was hinted in the first book when she was still married to Drogo.... :rolleyes:

And then you use this misguided notion to wave away an entire book worth of development as poorly plotted filler, even though up to that point the series was, once again, notorious for its plot consistency and foreshadowing of major twists a couple books in advance without giving them away. Really now?

I give you, it's not entirely impossible... the series can accommodate Dany going to Westeros, of course. It's also possible that George lost his mojo and is going to write crap. But none of these premises are supported by facts for the time being, so we might as well assume things will make sense.

 

As for the Meereenese knot, it was never about keeping Dany busy with random stuff and then untangling her in time for a major series arc. It was about all the other characters coming into Meereen, Tyrion, Quentin, Victarion, etc., plus the other major events in the city (you can check how George explained it here). George need not have bothered with all that if the whole point was to get Dany out of Slaver's Bay. Xaro was a perfect ex-machina for that, but instead he used him to make a point that Dany thinks her responsibility to her freedmen > her dream to return "home". Ask yourself why he did that.

 

To further cement my point, I suggest reading this summary of an early Dany chapter from the initial version of ADwD, back before George decided to remove the 5 year gap. The summary is from February 2003 and it's for an early version of the chapter with Drogon in Daznak's Pit.

The fact that one of the first chapters after the gap was moved to the very end of the published ADwD seems to imply that everything else in the book is merely describing what was supposed to happen during those five years, but if you look at the summary closely, you'll realize that this assumption is very, very wrong. While the prototype chapter did have a couple of scenes that were ultimately kept, including Drogon flying in the pit to feed on Barsena and the boar, the background details are much closer to the beginning of ADwD:

- It establishes the Sons of the Harpy (called there Sons of Ghis) as opponents to her rule in Meereen.

- It introduces Raznak and Skahaz, shave pates and brazen beasts, as well as the murders of Unsullied city guards.

- It introduces Hizdar as an important political figure and prospective husband, but Dany is not married with him yet, she's merely opening the pits as a gesture of good will to former gladiators and an attempt to mollify the Ghiscari.

- It establishes that Barristan training knights.

- It establishes Cleos the Butcher King, who is waging war with Yunkai at the time the chapter takes place.

- It establishes that the Yunkai'i are hiring sellsword companies and the Golden Company is brought up.

- The dragons are still free and stealing sheep from the surrounding villages, which Dany pays for.

- There is no attempt on Dany's life and she does not go in the pit to ride Drogon. The chapter seems to end on the ominous note of Drogon eating human flesh. This leads me to believe that in the early version Daznak's Pit was either the reason Drogon fled and Dany locked up her other dragons, or at least a precursor to Hazzea.

The similarity of all these plot points to the situation at the beginning of the published book leads me to believe that even with the five year gap in place, George intended Dany's ADwD arc to be about the war in Slaver's Bay. There is no reason to believe his struggle with the story, Meereenes knot or 5 year gap, changed her intended path in any meaningful way.

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8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Come now.  Dany has been set up to be a game-changer from the first novel, whether you want to see her as a conqueror or a saviour.  The "Mysha" theme in Slaveer's Bay drops a prety big hint but people will believe what they want I suppose.

Having read the WOT I don't see any basis for Dany being based off Rand.  Just because both stories have heroes and heroines and prophecies in them doesn't mean much, particularly as the two series were written contemporaneously.  GRRM is on the record by the way as saying Tad Williams' trilogy Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was what inspired him to write ASOIAF.

Having read your comments you seem to be confusing the Meereenese knot with the actual story.  GRRM had to find things for Dany to do in Essos to stop her arriving in Westeros too early and once he had started down that route he has found it harder and harder to break her out of Meereen.  Apparently he hasn't done as bad a job as he thought as the story in Essos is compelling enough for some to consider that it is or could become the real story.  It's true that Victarion and Tyrion have now joined Dany in Slaver's Bay but that seems designed to finally cut the knot and move Dany westwards with all the characters converging in the main theatre in Westeros rather than the all the other povs finding compelling reasons to abandon Westeros.

First, Danny was set up to become a "Threat" as big as the Others. Now, people believe her to be a Disney princess with dragons that will save the world and "Break the wheel!!" . For all we know, GRRM changed his mind to make her so, but if that is the case then its even worst. 

Second, if you say there is no basis for Danny being based of Rand, you did not read WoT. I learned how to use the search tool and found someone already explaining it instead of losing time:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96551-parrallels-between-daenerys-and-rand-al-thor-from-wheel-of-time-spoilers/

The Essos storyline is horrible and most people I know did not even finish ADWD...  everyone can have an opinion though and I am sure the superfans say its the best book, even though there was no advancement whatsoever. I mean slogfest at its freaking finest. 

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Oh dear, it's another of those "ASoIAF is a complete unapologetic plagiarism of WoT" posts, isn't it? And here I hoped they were gone for good... :crying:

Actually, no. He took WAY more from LOTR and Memory, Sorrow and Thorne then he did from WoT. But he did not plagiarize anyone, he does what every author has been doing since the alphabet. Its just grating that people defend GRRM to the death here, as if he is the most original author of the 20th century and the great subverter of tropes and then propose theories that come directly from other books as if its new shit. Just trying to point it out when I see it.

Sorry if its been done before, I am new here. 

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1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

I don't think I am confusing anything. You, on the other hand, are falling for as very widespread logical fallacy with that argument I bolded.

This is a series that first earned its fame for being subversive. In fact, here's a quote from George that conveniently rose up in a recent thread:

"I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero ... sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father ... So immediately killing Robb became the next thing I had to do."

This is the author himself telling you that if a plot line is blatantly obvious, he's going to want to take in a different direction... And yet you take it as absolute truth that Dany has to invade Westeros because that's what was hinted in the first book when she was still married to Drogo.... :rolleyes:

And then you use this misguided notion to wave away an entire book worth of development as poorly plotted filler, even though up to that point the series was, once again, notorious for its plot consistency and foreshadowing of major twists a couple books in advance without giving them away. Really now?

I give you, it's not entirely impossible... the series can accommodate Dany going to Westeros, of course. It's also possible that George lost his mojo and is going to write crap. But none of these premises are supported by facts for the time being, so we might as well assume things will make sense.

 

As for the Meereenese knot, it was never about keeping Dany busy with random stuff and then untangling her in time for a major series arc. It was about all the other characters coming into Meereen, Tyrion, Quentin, Victarion, etc., plus the other major events in the city (you can check how George explained it here). George need not have bothered with all that if the whole point was to get Dany out of Slaver's Bay. Xaro was a perfect ex-machina for that, but instead he used him to make a point that Dany thinks her responsibility to her freedmen > her dream to return "home". Ask yourself why he did that.

 

To further cement my point, I suggest reading this summary of an early Dany chapter from the initial version of ADwD, back before George decided to remove the 5 year gap. The summary is from February 2003 and it's for an early version of the chapter with Drogon in Daznak's Pit.

The fact that one of the first chapters after the gap was moved to the very end of the published ADwD seems to imply that everything else in the book is merely describing what was supposed to happen during those five years, but if you look at the summary closely, you'll realize that this assumption is very, very wrong. While the prototype chapter did have a couple of scenes that were ultimately kept, including Drogon flying in the pit to feed on Barsena and the boar, the background details are much closer to the beginning of ADwD:

- It establishes the Sons of the Harpy (called there Sons of Ghis) as opponents to her rule in Meereen.

- It introduces Raznak and Skahaz, shave pates and brazen beasts, as well as the murders of Unsullied city guards.

- It introduces Hizdar as an important political figure and prospective husband, but Dany is not married with him yet, she's merely opening the pits as a gesture of good will to former gladiators and an attempt to mollify the Ghiscari.

- It establishes that Barristan training knights.

- It establishes Cleos the Butcher King, who is waging war with Yunkai at the time the chapter takes place.

- It establishes that the Yunkai'i are hiring sellsword companies and the Golden Company is brought up.

- The dragons are still free and stealing sheep from the surrounding villages, which Dany pays for.

- There is no attempt on Dany's life and she does not go in the pit to ride Drogon. The chapter seems to end on the ominous note of Drogon eating human flesh. This leads me to believe that in the early version Daznak's Pit was either the reason Drogon fled and Dany locked up her other dragons, or at least a precursor to Hazzea.

The similarity of all these plot points to the situation at the beginning of the published book leads me to believe that even with the five year gap in place, George intended Dany's ADwD arc to be about the war in Slaver's Bay. There is no reason to believe his struggle with the story, Meereenes knot or 5 year gap, changed her intended path in any meaningful way.

Hold the phone there champ.  GRRM himself talks about the Meereenese knot and the problems it gave him as you so kindly allow so keep your logical fallacy with your personal speculation about everything moving to Essos.

Each of Jon, Dany and Tyrion are given a significant amount of time and attention in wielding power and learning about the difficulties of doing so, that much was always in the works but Gardener George wrote such a good sub-plot for Dany and enmeshed her in it so deeply (the tale growing in the telling after all) that he has struggled with finding a way to extricate her without it feeling unsatisfying.  Otherwise there's no knot and he wouldn't be sharing all these problems with us.  How Dany gets to Westeros, who she takes with her and how the second dance of dragons unfolds is going to be interesting and has a ton of argument around it but it's what the author has outlined and set in motion.

Oh and sorry if my saying you were confusing the Meereenese knot with the real story offended you, it was not the best choice of word.

1 hour ago, Spilledguts said:

First, Danny was set up to become a "Threat" as big as the Others. Now, people believe her to be a Disney princess with dragons that will save the world and "Break the wheel!!" . For all we know, GRRM changed his mind to make her so, but if that is the case then its even worst. 

Second, if you say there is no basis for Danny being based of Rand, you did not read WoT. I learned how to use the search tool and found someone already explaining it instead of losing time:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96551-parrallels-between-daenerys-and-rand-al-thor-from-wheel-of-time-spoilers/

The Essos storyline is horrible and most people I know did not even finish ADWD...  everyone can have an opinion though and I am sure the superfans say its the best book, even though there was no advancement whatsoever. I mean slogfest at its freaking finest. 

Actually, no. He took WAY more from LOTR and Memory, Sorrow and Thorne then he did from WoT. But he did not plagiarize anyone, he does what every author has been doing since the alphabet. Its just grating that people defend GRRM to the death here, as if he is the most original author of the 20th century and the great subverter of tropes and then propose theories that come directly from other books as if its new shit. Just trying to point it out when I see it.

Sorry if its been done before, I am new here. 

I don't believe her to be a Disney princess.  I do believe the author had her liberate all the salves from three cities earning the soubriquet "Mysha" and "Breaker of Chains".  I don't see what you think is "Disney" about emancipating tens of thousands of innocents from brutal lives and then struggling with the realities of the aftermath of such revolutionary changes.  I thought Disney was cartoon stuff with Mickey Mouse for kids but maybe I'm missing out here.

I have read the WOT.  I am pretty sure I said that already...  If you really did read the WOT you'll know that the Dark One is the one who wants to break the wheel while our heroes obviously want to prevent this happening but hey link me someone else's article to show me your knowledge.  I'll save time by not reading it, i prefer the books.

Parallels beween heroes in fantasy stories?  Sure.  You realise you said "based off" and that this means something different?  And like I said already, the two works were written contemporaneously.  Everyone takes inspiration from or is influenced by other stories they've read and liked but if you think he can't write his own story "without Dany becoming too much like Rand" [sic] and this "would destroy the series entirely" [your words] I think your comparisons are off the mark and with regard to GRRM's skills as a story teller you're worrying about nothing.  He told us he was inspired to write ASOIF by Memory, Sorrow and Thorne and he talks about what he considers the limitations of JRRT's moral framework of good v evil (elves good, orcs, bad!) and glossing over realism - Aragorn's tax policy.  When does he talk about RJ and WOT and the influence that had on him and his writing?

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18 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Hold the phone there champ.  GRRM himself talks about the Meereenese knot and the problems it gave him as you so kindly allow so keep your logical fallacy with your personal speculation about everything moving to Essos.

Each of Jon, Dany and Tyrion are given a significant amount of time and attention in wielding power and learning about the difficulties of doing so, that much was always in the works but Gardener George wrote such a good sub-plot for Dany and enmeshed her in it so deeply (the tale growing in the telling after all) that he has struggled with finding a way to extricate her without it feeling unsatisfying.  Otherwise there's no knot and he wouldn't be sharing all these problems with us.  How Dany gets to Westeros, who she takes with her and how the second dance of dragons unfolds is going to be interesting and has a ton of argument around it but it's what the author has outlined and set in motion.

Oh and sorry if my saying you were confusing the Meereenese knot with the real story offended you, it was not the best choice of word.

I don't believe her to be a Disney princess.  I do believe the author had her liberate all the salves from three cities earning the soubriquet "Mysha" and "Breaker of Chains".  I don't see what you think is "Disney" about emancipating tens of thousands of innocents from brutal lives and then struggling with the realities of the aftermath of such revolutionary changes.  I thought Disney was cartoon stuff with Mickey Mouse for kids but maybe I'm missing out here.

I have read the WOT.  I am pretty sure I said that already...  If you really did read the WOT you'll know that the Dark One is the one who wants to break the wheel while our heroes obviously want to prevent this happening but hey link me someone else's article to show me your knowledge.  I'll save time by not reading it, i prefer the books.

Parallels beween heroes in fantasy stories?  Sure.  You realise you said "based off" and that this means something different?  And like I said already, the two works were written contemporaneously.  Everyone takes inspiration from or is influenced by other stories they've read and liked but if you think he can't write his own story "without Dany becoming too much like Rand" [sic] and this "would destroy the series entirely" [your words] I think your comparisons are off the mark and with regard to GRRM's skills as a story teller you're worrying about nothing.  He told us he was inspired to write ASOIF by Memory, Sorrow and Thorne and he talks about what he considers the limitations of JRRT's moral framework of good v evil (elves good, orcs, bad!) and glossing over realism - Aragorn's tax policy.  When does he talk about RJ and WOT and the influence that had on him and his writing?

And then allowing them to sell themselves back into slavery with a profit to herself.

lol Mickey Mouse, dude? Guess you have never seen Mulan? I actually suggest when / if you babysit your grandkids next!  

What I meant by that is, how can someone so beautiful, that brought dragons back to the world, is a near goddess and freed the slaves from the super evil mustache-twirling slavers do anything wrong and be anything else but the savior of the world? Live happily ever after, marry her true love and sit the Iron Mf'N Throne! Did I mention, beautiful?

I said based off because: Dragon reborn / intriguing madness, possibly by magic or some other power  / crazy dreams, possibly prophetic / head in the sand / similar story with uncertain origins / at least 2 other possible hero candidates...

But did I not say that the differences that set them apart are the reason I do not think she will be a hero? Instead, I am apparantly accusing your favorite author of plagiarism? They have chosen opposite sides of several moral dilemnas. If she suddenly starts taking different decisions, more simlar to Rand and ALSO unites the world for the final battle.... it will be fucking boring as hell and yes, way too similar. I did not think GRRM was going for a Jesus / Aragorn / Rand / "Insert other Messiah" with any of his characters... seemed the opposite to me and the appeal of the series. 

You link together the Dark One destroying the Wheel of Time and Danny Breaking the Wheel?? Woah, dude. 

Oh and yes, funny you mention Memory, Sorrow and Thorn which I am currently re-reading for the 2nd time since High School. Still very enjoyable!

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Hold the phone there champ.  GRRM himself talks about the Meereenese knot and the problems it gave him as you so kindly allow so keep your logical fallacy with your personal speculation about everything moving to Essos.

Each of Jon, Dany and Tyrion are given a significant amount of time and attention in wielding power and learning about the difficulties of doing so, that much was always in the works but Gardener George wrote such a good sub-plot for Dany and enmeshed her in it so deeply (the tale growing in the telling after all) that he has struggled with finding a way to extricate her without it feeling unsatisfying.  Otherwise there's no knot and he wouldn't be sharing all these problems with us.  How Dany gets to Westeros, who she takes with her and how the second dance of dragons unfolds is going to be interesting and has a ton of argument around it but it's what the author has outlined and set in motion.

Oh and sorry if my saying you were confusing the Meereenese knot with the real story offended you, it was not the best choice of word.

The only thing I know George said about the Meereenese knot is in the link I provided. I'll just post it here so it's easier to keep track of:

Quote

Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth's declaration of war. Then there's the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there's the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there's the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc.), and then there's Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there's the plague, there's Drogon's return to Meereen...

All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they're all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet.

 

Nowhere does he say anything about getting Dany to Westeros, it's all about what happens in Meereen and how all these suitors impact the story based on the order in which they arrive. You only think it's about Westeros because that idea was seeded in the first two books and you assume that's the obligatory path that the story has to follow. I used to think the same.

But the set up from the prototype chapter, written before he split the books, before he removed the 5 year gap, before the knot became a problem, strongly suggests that the events in Slaver's Bay would have played out roughly the same way. The only logical conclusion is that the events themselves are important to the story and they are not a result of George having to keep Dany occupied in Meereen longer than he had anticipated.

Oh, and don't worry, I'm not that easily offended. ;) Hope you aren't taking offense at my disagreements either, because none is intended.

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Because she feels like she needs to free the slaves and she has no army. She has some mercenaries and

8000 Unsullied which I will explain why they are not useful in Westeros. Their description: light infantry, equipped with short spears, swords, round shields, and distinctive spiked caps. They fight fearlessly and obey without question. Their elite, highly specialized training makes them most effective in their phalanx formation. They do not ride horses.

Westerosi army have many options against them.

1. They can surround them and shoot them down with crossbows that penetrate their shields.

2. They can fighting them with heavy infantry that would break them with their superior armor.

3. Heavy cav charge from behind would just mow them like grass while infantry holds them in the front. 

It is basically like Hellenic phalanx vs Romans and Romans defeated them with even less armor advantage.

But than again Daenerys could just nuke Kingslanding.

 

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22 hours ago, Spilledguts said:

And then allowing them to sell themselves back into slavery with a profit to herself.

lol Mickey Mouse, dude? Guess you have never seen Mulan? I actually suggest when / if you babysit your grandkids next!  

What I meant by that is, how can someone so beautiful, that brought dragons back to the world, is a near goddess and freed the slaves from the super evil mustache-twirling slavers do anything wrong and be anything else but the savior of the world? Live happily ever after, marry her true love and sit the Iron Mf'N Throne! Did I mention, beautiful?

I said based off because: Dragon reborn / intriguing madness, possibly by magic or some other power  / crazy dreams, possibly prophetic / head in the sand / similar story with uncertain origins / at least 2 other possible hero candidates...

But did I not say that the differences that set them apart are the reason I do not think she will be a hero? Instead, I am apparantly accusing your favorite author of plagiarism? They have chosen opposite sides of several moral dilemnas. If she suddenly starts taking different decisions, more simlar to Rand and ALSO unites the world for the final battle.... it will be fucking boring as hell and yes, way too similar. I did not think GRRM was going for a Jesus / Aragorn / Rand / "Insert other Messiah" with any of his characters... seemed the opposite to me and the appeal of the series. 

You link together the Dark One destroying the Wheel of Time and Danny Breaking the Wheel?? Woah, dude. 

Oh and yes, funny you mention Memory, Sorrow and Thorn which I am currently re-reading for the 2nd time since High School. Still very enjoyable!

 

Yeah, allowing desperate people to sell themselves back into slavery (but not any family members or dependents) is part of the awful reality of dealing with the aftermath of liberating so many and destroying a system overnight.  Is it a good decision or one she is happy with?  No but that's all part of GRRM's portrayal of the realities of wielding power a propos his question about Aragorn's tax policy.

And it's precisely because he writes that sort of stuff and has all of Tyrion, Jon and Dany facing hard choices and making unpalatable decisions that I never get why pepople react with such hyperbole and scorn at the idea that his characters will actually lead the fight agasint the others and then present the kind of kindergarten plot summary that you do above.  It has been set up over the series for Jon (LC of the NW and posisbly the "chosen one" as child of Rhaegar and Lyanna), Dany (last scion of House Targaryen, well ok FAegon and Jon, hatcher of 3 dragons), Bran (Greenseer in training of as yet untold powers) and Tyrion (impish wildcard and GRRM's favourite, fully of savvy and guile) are acquiring power and experience so they can play a part in the coming storm.  After GRRM ditched the 5 year gap he said something along the lines of "if a 15 year old ends up saving the world so be it".  If you don't have the faith in him to write his own story in the gritty, bleak and sometimes shocking style he has to date without it becoming Disney then ok that's you but I still think you're worrying about nothing. 

There are similarities between WOT and ASOIAF?  Sure.  We are dealing with huge complex epics that took decades to write, there are bound to be similarities as there are with other fantasy series.  Look hard enough and you'll find parallels with any series you want or any character you want.  Genre leads to that.  But is Morse "based off" Taggart, Poirot "based off" Sherlock Holmes or Miss Marple "based off" Colombo?  Similarities and the furnishings of genre staples shouldn't lead you to think that Dany is based off Rand.  I think you chose your words poorly if you don't actually mean that GRRM got his inspriation for Dany from Rand.

"Fucking boring?"  You're not the first to rail against the idea that the story may not go the way you want it to.  Indeed you go as far as to say it "would destroy the series entirely" if it didn't turn out the way you want it to.  Have a little faith in the author and bear in mind it's his ending not yours.  The point seems to me that there will be multiple characters all playing their part.

You're the one who talked about breaking the wheel, not me. :huh:

Never read Memory, Sorrow and Thorne.  I tried Tad Williams once years ago and coldn't get into it.  It was a long time ago though and since GRRM rates him I may try him again.

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