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Why is Dany still in Essos?


Tyrion1991

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Which is irrelevant. We have to spend an entire novel waiting for a predictable situation to unfold until Dany finally gets to Westeros.

So basically this amounts to more Essos filler and less time with Dany in Westeros where the real story is.

Also I have to be that guy. But it means Winds will end with a cliffhanger of her sailing off and another 6-7 year wait to get those 6-8 Daenerys chapters where she actually does stuff in Westeros...

 

GRRM ended ADWD by introducing a new plot line which should have been quickly resolved  rather than be the subject of Danys entire arc in Winds of Winter. It will involve more pointless Essos characters and meandering about as the author invents various geographical features to stop the plot advancing.

He still had to get Quentyn toasted, and Tyron and the Ironmen to Meereen. 

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Which is irrelevant. We have to spend an entire novel waiting for a predictable situation to unfold until Dany finally gets to Westeros.

So basically this amounts to more Essos filler and less time with Dany in Westeros where the real story is.

Also I have to be that guy. But it means Winds will end with a cliffhanger of her sailing off and another 6-7 year wait to get those 6-8 Daenerys chapters where she actually does stuff in Westeros...

 

GRRM ended ADWD by introducing a new plot line which should have been quickly resolved  rather than be the subject of Danys entire arc in Winds of Winter. It will involve more pointless Essos characters and meandering about as the author invents various geographical features to stop the plot advancing.

Why are you so sure it is predictable? Tell us then what is going to happen. Who is she going to align with (both in Essos and Westeros), what is going to happen to her dragons, will she return as a conqueror or a saviour or perhaps a bit of both? 

For all you know it is an inopportune time to return her to Westeros in terms of what he has planned for other characters. If it is important to have fAegon time to do his thing, for Euron to work his magic, for whatever is going to happen in the north to happen, and having 3 dragons flying around would get in the road of that, it is entirely appropriate that she has something else to do.

You seem to think the "real story" is about her return to Westeros, but I feel that may well not go down the way you seem to think.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Makk said:

Why are you so sure it is predictable? Tell us then what is going to happen. Who is she going to align with (both in Essos and Westeros), what is going to happen to her dragons, will she return as a conqueror or a saviour or perhaps a bit of both? 

For all you know it is an inopportune time to return her to Westeros in terms of what he has planned for other characters. If it is important to have fAegon time to do his thing, for Euron to work his magic, for whatever is going to happen in the north to happen, and having 3 dragons flying around would get in the road of that, it is entirely appropriate that she has something else to do.

You seem to think the "real story" is about her return to Westeros, but I feel that may well not go down the way you seem to think.

 

 

 

Well unless you believe the Dothraki are going to kill her or keep her at Dosh Khaleen for her whole life it's the only way GRRM can resolve it.

If she simply escapes, well that would have been another pointless detour and filler. So the only way the story can go is that she gets the Dothraki to join her. It's very predictable.

Yes the real story is in Westeros. Her entire epilogue chapter is about stressing that it is her destiny to go to Westeros and become a Conqueror like Aegon. GRRM really is saying that the Mereenese plot is an irrelevance and that Dany getting to Westeros is all that matters. The fact he continues to write Essos filler baffles me since Dany has been trying to get to Westeros for 6 novels...when Aegon does it in a few chapters.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Done. Sorry if I spoiled you. 

Don't worry, you didn't spoil me, I was just trying to warn others and make sure the discussion won't reveal too much, since this area is supposed to be free from show information (I feel tempted to bring some comparisons up all too often myself).

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Yes the real story is in Westeros. Her entire epilogue chapter is about stressing that it is her destiny to go to Westeros and become a Conqueror like Aegon. GRRM really is saying that the Mereenese plot is an irrelevance and that Dany getting to Westeros is all that matters. The fact he continues to write Essos filler baffles me since Dany has been trying to get to Westeros for 6 novels...when Aegon does it in a few chapters.

You keep saying that like you know better than the author. Just because that's what you would like to see doesn't mean it's the only direction the story can take (or the best one).

In her epilogue chapter, Dany is in a very desperate situation and has some visions of doubt. Viserys blames her for "betraying" him and getting him killed, Jorah blames her for not going to Westeros. Both voices are projections of those characters' desires the way Dany understood them, they're not necessarily what she thinks she should have done. She never thinks of Westeros on her own, it's always in Jorah's voice.

What she does come to realize is that Meereen is not her home, she can never be the Harpy, and she should embrace her family's words. But that can apply to her anti-slavery arc just as well. As queen of Meereem, she compromised a lot for very little. She accepted that Yunkai and the other cities would continue to sell slaves, she tried to embrace Ghiscari traditions, took a Ghiscari husband, reopened the fighting pits, allowed freedmen to sell themselves back into servitude, chained her dragons... all this for her "children" and peace, but war, slavery and horror still came to her doorsteps. Now she's going to stop compromising and give her enemies a choice between her way and "fire and blood"... and she won't be satisfied with Meereen anymore, she will go for the whole continent, like her ancestor would have.

Also, about the interview @The Fattest Leech linked...

Spoiler

I think it's interesting George said Tyrion and Dany would "intersect". To me, that doesn't sound like they'll meet at the end of the book, it sounds like they'll meet somewhere in the middle and then part ways again. This is consistent with Dany splitting her forces to strike at two or more Free Cities at the same time.

 

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41 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

Don't worry, you didn't spoil me, I was just trying to warn others and make sure the discussion won't reveal too much, since this area is supposed to be free from show information (I feel tempted to bring some comparisons up all too often myself).

You keep saying that like you know better than the author. Just because that's what you would like to see doesn't mean it's the only direction the story can take (or the best one).

In her epilogue chapter, Dany is in a very desperate situation and has some visions of doubt. Viserys blames her for "betraying" him and getting him killed, Jorah blames her for not going to Westeros. Both voices are projections of those characters' desires the way Dany understood them, they're not necessarily what she thinks she should have done. She never thinks of Westeros on her own, it's always in Jorah's voice.

What she does come to realize is that Meereen is not her home, she can never be the Harpy, and she should embrace her family's words. But that can apply to her anti-slavery arc just as well. As queen of Meereem, she compromised a lot for very little. She accepted that Yunkai and the other cities would continue to sell slaves, she tried to embrace Ghiscari traditions, took a Ghiscari husband, reopened the fighting pits, allowed freedmen to sell themselves back into servitude, chained her dragons... all this for her "children" and peace, but war, slavery and horror still came to her doorsteps. Now she's going to stop compromising and give her enemies a choice between her way and "fire and blood"... and she won't be satisfied with Meereen anymore, she will go for the whole continent, like her ancestor would have.

Also, about the interview @The Fattest Leech linked...

  Reveal hidden contents

I think it's interesting George said Tyrion and Dany would "intersect". To me, that doesn't sound like they'll meet at the end of the book, it sounds like they'll meet somewhere in the middle and then part ways again. This is consistent with Dany splitting her forces to strike at two or more Free Cities at the same time.

 

 

Its extremely unlikely that Daenerys will stay in Essos during the entirety of the series. I mean in ADWD we have entire arcs given over to characters whose sole goal is to get Dany to come to Westeros. Dany herself wants to go Westeros. Would have went during Swords and Dragons had it not been impossible due to the Demon Road being impassable. The only obstacle to this happening is the continuous delays by irrelevant side stories and endless contrivances. How can the Golden Company easily invade Westeros but Daenerys can't pull off the same feat after all these all novels and is beset by difficulties?

 

What would be achieved by having the entirety of Winds take place in Essos? We already explored the Dothraki in the first book. We already know the Slavers are not going to win. Nothing is at stake here. So the whole arc would be basically counting time as we wait for Dany to get on a boat. 

It would not surprise me if GRRM is having as many problems with Danys arc in Winds as he did in ADWD. He must be aware that now Dany is powerful and has the will to go to Westeros there isn't a reason for her not to be there. We are counting time. Basically he's probably rewriting all the Essos filler to try and make it less boring. He can't not be aware that Danys arc and Essos in general was heavily criticised in ADWD. 

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Its extremely unlikely that Daenerys will stay in Essos during the entirety of the series. I mean in ADWD we have entire arcs given over to characters whose sole goal is to get Dany to come to Westeros. Dany herself wants to go Westeros. Would have went during Swords and Dragons had it not been impossible due to the Demon Road being impassable. The only obstacle to this happening is the continuous delays by irrelevant side stories and endless contrivances. How can the Golden Company easily invade Westeros but Daenerys can't pull off the same feat after all these all novels and is beset by difficulties?

Why exactly is it unlikely? I assume you mean that from a storytelling point of view, because it is important for the structural integrity of the series for the stories to connect... But if Jon and Sansa (and even Aegon) are pushed across the Narrow Sea because of the Others, it is no longer mandatory for Dany to reach Westeros in order to link the plot lines.

From a character perspective, there is absolutely no need for Dany to rush to Westeros, even if she does want to get there eventually. She is what, 16? 17? Her whole life ahead of her. She has the Dothrakiand her dragon, so she can easily take a few years to conquer Essos and crack on slavery before sailing west. Why wouldn't she do that? Most of the Free Cities are on her way west anyway, and it would be a huge political boost for her. Such a feat would both embolden the Dothraki to follow her across the poison water and gain her support in Westeros, where she would be seen as a true Targaryen and Aegon the Conqueror reborn, instead of an unknown quantity with virtually no supporters. It's not like she knows that the Others are coming and the series is supposed to end.

It's also kind of funny you think Georged wrote all those Quentin, Victarion and Tyrion chapters with the sole purpose of taking Dany to Westeros, but he couldn't make the Demon Road passable for her with a single line. Did you stop to think that maybe he knows what he's doing and your interpretation is wrong?

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

What would be achieved by having the entirety of Winds take place in Essos? We already explored the Dothraki in the first book. We already know the Slavers are not going to win. Nothing is at stake here. So the whole arc would be basically counting time as we wait for Dany to get on a boat. 

What would be achieved by having Dany on the Iron Throne? She has no rapport with any of the Westerosi characters. The people who dethroned her father and killed her brother are dead. The interesting opponents are dead or likely to be dead before she gets there (I'm 99% sure Stannis will die when the Others breach the Wall, 1% sure he'll be killed by the Boltons). We know Cersei and Aegon aren't going to win. Nothig is at stake here. So the whole arc would be basically ticking off the Chosen One taking the Throne at the End of the Story.

On Essos, on the other hand, the juicy stakes are with Braavos, which does not deserved to be conquered, but is there on the continent, so Dany might want to do so anyway. And Braavos is going to be financing the Westerosi refugees via Jon, Braavos is where Tyrion may find Tysha, his greatest love and his greatest crime (literally his Frodo-esque bittersweet ending), Braavos has the Faceless Men who may send Arya to kill Dany, Braavos might offer support to Aegon if Stannis bites the dust...

The stakes are also in the Conquest itself, since if the theme we saw in Slaver's Bay continues, Dany is going to kill more people than she saves, and the whole thing is not going to be "worth it" unless there is enough stability in the end for the positive changes to benefit future generations... So here are your stakes.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It would not surprise me if GRRM is having as many problems with Danys arc in Winds as he did in ADWD. He must be aware that now Dany is powerful and has the will to go to Westeros there isn't a reason for her not to be there. We are counting time. Basically he's probably rewriting all the Essos filler to try and make it less boring. He can't not be aware that Danys arc and Essos in general was heavily criticised in ADWD. 

Essos was criticized for the same reason you are criticizing it, because people were so convinced Dany has to go to Westeros that they classified it as filler by default. There's a catch 22 here... If George makes Essos and other plot points started in Feast & Dance actually matter for the endgame of the series, then readers will be forced to admit they were never filler to begin with, but then again there is a real risk that they will be obstinate and refuse to admit the quality of the story because it defied their expectations (which would be ironic, considering defying expectations is what initially earned it praise). I suspect George is afraid of such an unjustified negative reaction, and this is why he's taking so long trying to make sure he gets everything right.

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4 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

Why exactly is it unlikely? I assume you mean that from a storytelling point of view, because it is important for the structural integrity of the series for the stories to connect... But if Jon and Sansa (and even Aegon) are pushed across the Narrow Sea because of the Others, it is no longer mandatory for Dany to reach Westeros in order to link the plot lines.

From a character perspective, there is absolutely no need for Dany to rush to Westeros, even if she does want to get there eventually. She is what, 16? 17? Her whole life ahead of her. She has the Dothrakiand her dragon, so she can easily take a few years to conquer Essos and crack on slavery before sailing west. Why wouldn't she do that? Most of the Free Cities are on her way west anyway, and it would be a huge political boost for her. Such a feat would both embolden the Dothraki to follow her across the poison water and gain her support in Westeros, where she would be seen as a true Targaryen and Aegon the Conqueror reborn, instead of an unknown quantity with virtually no supporters. It's not like she knows that the Others are coming and the series is supposed to end.

It's also kind of funny you think Georged wrote all those Quentin, Victarion and Tyrion chapters with the sole purpose of taking Dany to Westeros, but he couldn't make the Demon Road passable for her with a single line. Did you stop to think that maybe he knows what he's doing and your interpretation is wrong?

What would be achieved by having Dany on the Iron Throne? She has no rapport with any of the Westerosi characters. The people who dethroned her father and killed her brother are dead. The interesting opponents are dead or likely to be dead before she gets there (I'm 99% sure Stannis will die when the Others breach the Wall, 1% sure he'll be killed by the Boltons). We know Cersei and Aegon aren't going to win. Nothig is at stake here. So the whole arc would be basically ticking off the Chosen One taking the Throne at the End of the Story.

On Essos, on the other hand, the juicy stakes are with Braavos, which does not deserved to be conquered, but is there on the continent, so Dany might want to do so anyway. And Braavos is going to be financing the Westerosi refugees via Jon, Braavos is where Tyrion may find Tysha, his greatest love and his greatest crime (literally his Frodo-esque bittersweet ending), Braavos has the Faceless Men who may send Arya to kill Dany, Braavos might offer support to Aegon if Stannis bites the dust...

The stakes are also in the Conquest itself, since if the theme we saw in Slaver's Bay continues, Dany is going to kill more people than she saves, and the whole thing is not going to be "worth it" unless there is enough stability in the end for the positive changes to benefit future generations... So here are your stakes.

Essos was criticized for the same reason you are criticizing it, because people were so convinced Dany has to go to Westeros that they classified it as filler by default. There's a catch 22 here... If George makes Essos and other plot points started in Feast & Dance actually matter for the endgame of the series, then readers will be forced to admit they were never filler to begin with, but then again there is a real risk that they will be obstinate and refuse to admit the quality of the story because it defied their expectations (which would be ironic, considering defying expectations is what initially earned it praise). I suspect George is afraid of such an unjustified negative reaction, and this is why he's taking so long trying to make sure he gets everything right.

 

Spoiler

 

In the first book she is the only POV in Essos and is from a family which was ousted from power. Everyone else is from Westeros. We have never had an Essos POV. Dany constantly talks about Westeros and the only characters she has significant conversations with pre ADWD are Jorah and Barristan; both Westerosi characters. The conflicts in Essos are distractions to the main event and always have been.

Why can't she learn to be a ruler and do al her conquering in Westeros? There is no benefit to the plot by keeping one of the major characters essentially forced to play a side story that has no impact on the main plot.

Well he was originally going to gloss over all of the Greyjoy/Martell stuff in a prologue and have ADWD start with Dany flying off on Drogons back after a five year time skip. He also intended ADWD and AFFC to be one book and also that he would keep the Battles of Ice and Fire to the end of ADWD. He failed to achieve all of these things by his own admission. So yes, I question his direction for the series and think adding all of those POV's rather than just letting Dany march to Pentos was a mistake. He now has no choice but to waste another novel tying up all the loose ends and unimportant rubbish in Essos. 

She has no history with the characters in Westeros because GRRM hasn't let her go there. :D If GRRM had Dany set sail at the end of ASOS, like Aegon casually does during ADWD then I am sure she would have been more central and have a more grounded relationship with all the Westeros characters. This is why he shouldn't be putting himself in the position of having to cram all of that into the final novel. Dany should be an active part of the main story and not irrelevant stories in faraway continents that do not matter and will be forgotton about as soon as Dany leaves. Notice how Qaarth, the subject of an entire novel became nearly irrelevant once Dany left. The same thing will happen with Slavers Bay, on which at least three entire novels will have been wasted. All those interesting characters and plotlines are being settled before Dany will ever set foot in Westeros. You are stating a problem as if its a positive.

I want to see her try to get the Iron Throne. The journey, not the destination. That is the journey I signed up for. Not the journey where she meanders around Essos meeting various people who are to stupid to realise that they can get rid of her if they simply facilitate her leaving. I honestly never got why the slavers never try to buy Daenerys off with ships; but its established they do this all the time with Dothraki. Instead they try to buy her off with gold and then decide this is a war of annialation.

I don't think GRRM intends to kill everybody in Westeros and move the plot to Essos. You don't spend so many years building an immense world in Westeros just to wipe it out by OP zombies. At that point we have already lost and there isn't anything to fight for. I think that's a bizarre theory.

Essos is irrelevant. None of the Free Cities possess a standing army. The Sellsword companies, with the exception of the GC are inferior to Westerosi arms and have been repeatedly proven useless. The Unsullied lack modern plate or mail, fighting with antiquated tactics and cannot easily be replaced. The various freedmen soldiers Dany has recruited are again unreliable fodder that isn't the equal of the Lannister army. The Dothraki can only cross the Narrow Sea in limited numbers, if Dany can't move 8000 people to Westeros I fail to see her moving 500,000 and won't fare well in the winter. So essentially Essos is militarily irrelevant to an invasion of Westeros. You can't pull off D Day in the middle ages, definetly not in winter. So basically Dany was only ever going to be able to pull off what Aegon did and land 10,000 decent soldiers and hope the realm rises up. Or rely on her dragons. She has been able to do that since early ASOS. Having her establish some empire in Essos is frankly irrelevant. What matters is conquering Westeros.

You mean because they don't matter right now? :D I can already tell you that Arriane will marry Aegon, learn about Q dying and turn her husband against Dany. Does this need to be the subject of so much material and which was responsible for trashing GRRM five year gap and the Meereenese knot? It never should have taken so much time to explain such simplistic plot twists. Is he worried we'll take Danys side unconditionally if Arriance does this unless he spends a whole book giving her side of the story and another stressing that Q was a really nice dude? Its called overkill. For all we know Victarion, whose journey will have spanned 3 entire novels, is likely going to end up dying in the first few chapters and not linking up with Dany; failing exactly like Q and amounting to nothing. Again, more irrelevant dead ends and filler that only exists to keep Dany away from Westeros.

I think GRRM is the only one being stubborn. Theres a bit in ADWD between Tyrion and Aegon where T says something along the lines of "you should have brought your dragon where the heart of the action is". I think that's entirely reflective of the problem GRRM has wrote himself into. Dany is clearly too far away from the main story unfolding in Westeros. However I think he is loathe to cut away dead ends like the Dothraki, like the Meereenese and that Essos only made sense when Dany was unable to get to Westeros.  

Now the other obvious problem is that Dany is getting exponentially more powerful the longer she stays in Essos whilst everything else in Westeros is getting weaker. He has to balance that right. It has to be believable that Dany will not be so powerful that nobody sane would dare oppose her and that her opposition isn't so depleted that they can't. If you have a weak faction, with a weak ruler opposing Dany with 3 full grown dragons and a quarter million Dothraki. I mean the North is already scraping the barrel. Which is why it made a lot more sense to get Dany to Westeros earlier. Or, he would have to start spawning armies like he did with the Greyjoys and Eurons 1000 ships and would throw realism out of the window. I mean my assumption was that the conclusion of the War of Five Kings with a united if shaky Lannister rule was the perfect set up for her invasion. Tyrion even tells Aegon precisely this. Instead he seems to be setting the realm up to implode even more completely than last time with more of Westeros being drawn in. All that will deplete and split many of the factions that could oppose Dany.

Spoiler

 

You're trying to argue that GRRM has some genius plan to make Essos the centre of the narrative and that all the stuff he has done in Westeros actually is filler. That does flip my argument around but its a silly notion. Theres subverting tropes and then there is purposeful misdirection. Why was one of the salient points about ADWD that Dany should be a conqueror and leave Mereen to the Mereenese if she wasn't going to Westeros? Why have characters like Quathe and all the visions in the House of the Undying pointing to her destiny in Westeros? I could go on. Essos isn't important. It really has just been giving Dany stuff to do until GRRM feels its a good time to let her into the real storyline. 

When I read Danys POV her thoughts are very much on Westeros, her family and this sense of destiny that she has. They are purposefully written to get you invested in her wanting to go to Westeros; because it is what she wants to do. Like theres a bit where she thinks to herself that a cave isn't her home but her home is a place of Knights and castles; but its all very romantic and stresses her yearning for home. Its a very important and recurring theme. Its one of the main things she shares with Jorah for example; they're both exiles. So GRRM is intentionally creating a desire to want to see Dany get to Westeros whilst at the same time constantly frustrating that with "ohh yeah, theres this demon road and it will kill your whole army...and the slavers burnt their fleet and every piece of timber for hundreds of miles so you can't build more ships" Then later on he mentions that theres a pass to the Dothraki Sea from which a Khalessar can move down on her...and the slavers can magically import all of the wood they need for siege machines. Apparently she can't just use that pass herself to leave Meereen and can't import timber to build ships apparently. I mean if you take one of the largest and richest cities in the world I kind of assume you would have enough money to build ships or hire sellsails. I mean Sallador Saan is doing a terrible job finding work considering this successful Queen who should have a lot of money but doesn't have a lot of boats. But no apparently its impossible to leave. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

In the first book she is the only POV in Essos and is from a family which was ousted from power. Everyone else is from Westeros. We have never had an Essos POV. Dany constantly talks about Westeros and the only characters she has significant conversations with pre ADWD are Jorah and Barristan; both Westerosi characters. The conflicts in Essos are distractions to the main event and always have been.

Why can't she learn to be a ruler and do al her conquering in Westeros? There is no benefit to the plot by keeping one of the major characters essentially forced to play a side story that has no impact on the main plot.

Even though Dany is a Targaryen, there is nothing Westerosi about her. She was raised in Braavos and became empowered by embracing Dothraki culture. She is very much an Essosi cosmopolite. And let us not forget that Targaryens were Valyrians. The first Valyrian empire was on Essos.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Well he was originally going to gloss over all of the Greyjoy/Martell stuff in a prologue and have ADWD start with Dany flying off on Drogons back after a five year time skip. He also intended ADWD and AFFC to be one book and also that he would keep the Battles of Ice and Fire to the end of ADWD. He failed to achieve all of these things by his own admission. So yes, I question his direction for the series and think adding all of those POV's rather than just letting Dany march to Pentos was a mistake. He now has no choice but to waste another novel tying up all the loose ends and unimportant rubbish in Essos. 

On the second page of this thread, I brought up a summary of an early 2003 reading of the chapter in question. Dany never flew on Drogon in that chapter. It had Drogon descending at the opening of the pit to eat Barsena, but in the original version this was merely a stand-in or precursor to the Hazzea moment. Everything else in that chapter is set up for a Meereen vs Yunkai conflict, almost identical to the setup in ADwD (dragons were free, all the players got introduced, etc., check the link). I'm sorry, but the story in Slaver's Bay was always going play out like this, even when it started after the gap.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

She has no history with the characters in Westeros because GRRM hasn't let her go there. :D If GRRM had Dany set sail at the end of ASOS, like Aegon casually does during ADWD then I am sure she would have been more central and have a more grounded relationship with all the Westeros characters. This is why he shouldn't be putting himself in the position of having to cram all of that into the final novel. Dany should be an active part of the main story and not irrelevant stories in faraway continents that do not matter and will be forgotton about as soon as Dany leaves. Notice how Qaarth, the subject of an entire novel became nearly irrelevant once Dany left. The same thing will happen with Slavers Bay, on which at least three entire novels will have been wasted. All those interesting characters and plotlines are being settled before Dany will ever set foot in Westeros. You are stating a problem as if its a positive.

If you put too many characters in the same place, none of them will get an interesting story. If Dany, Euron and the Martells were involved in the War of the Five Kings, they would have either picked sides or they would have stomped on other characters' stories.

And it is entirely realistic that some parties come late to the conflict, or start something only after the main combatants are spent. That happens all the time in history.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I want to see her try to get the Iron Throne. The journey, not the destination. That is the journey I signed up for. Not the journey where she meanders around Essos meeting various people who are to stupid to realise that they can get rid of her if they simply facilitate her leaving. I honestly never got why the slavers never try to buy Daenerys off with ships; but its established they do this all the time with Dothraki. Instead they try to buy her off with gold and then decide this is a war of annialation.

What journey, though? Seeing Tywin taken by surprise by dragons? Yeah, that would have been priceless. Seeing Stannis grind his teeth asking himself if maybe this Targaryen heir with dragons has a better claim than him? Also really cool.

But you can't have Tywin vs Dany without ruining the amazing sendoff he got. He had to feel totally safe and in control when he got killed by his own son on the shitter. And Tyrion had to do it for his own reasons. Having Dany and her dragons in the equation would have totally ruined it. And you think Walder Frey would have cared about red weddings if he had dragons flying around the Twins? Same with Stannis, having him die pointlessly to the Others because of his rigid sense of duty and his conviction that he has to play Azor Ahai will be much more satisfying and relevant to his arc than a shallow interaction with Dany.

The beauty of it though is that you can imagine these interactions quite easily, especially as a first time reader, because the text invites you do think about them and suggests what they would be like with clever parallels and allusions. And since it does that, it doesn't need to make them canon.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I don't think GRRM intends to kill everybody in Westeros and move the plot to Essos. You don't spend so many years building an immense world in Westeros just to wipe it out by OP zombies. At that point we have already lost and there isn't anything to fight for. I think that's a bizarre theory.

He wouldn't kill everybody, and the survivors would still be key to the story. Why is the continent so important? Plus you act like the entirety of Essos isn't part of Humanity as well. Why do the wildlings matter? Jon is basically the only POV who interacts with them.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Having her establish some empire in Essos is frankly irrelevant. What matters is conquering Westeros.

You keep saying that in some form or another in every paragraph. I hope you don't think repetition counts as a good argument. All you're doing is reinforcing your highly rigid personal preference. I will also repeat my question from my previous post: Why should Dany as a character not conquer the Free Cities? She has the Dothraki, they're in her way, she would free some slaves, she would earn prestige and loot. Come on, win me over. Why not?

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Now the other obvious problem is that Dany is getting exponentially more powerful the longer she stays in Essos whilst everything else in Westeros is getting weaker. He has to balance that right. It has to be believable that Dany will not be so powerful that nobody sane would dare oppose her and that her opposition isn't so depleted that they can't. If you have a weak faction, with a weak ruler opposing Dany with 3 full grown dragons and a quarter million Dothraki. I mean the North is already scraping the barrel. Which is why it made a lot more sense to get Dany to Westeros earlier. Or, he would have to start spawning armies like he did with the Greyjoys and Eurons 1000 ships and would throw realism out of the window. I mean my assumption was that the conclusion of the War of Five Kings with a united if shaky Lannister rule was the perfect set up for her invasion. Tyrion even tells Aegon precisely this. Instead he seems to be setting the realm up to implode even more completely than last time with more of Westeros being drawn in. All that will deplete and split many of the factions that could oppose Dany.

You're kind of countering your own point here. Same old idea, the story is only bad if Dany is supposed to get to Westeros, but you have no way of telling if that is actually the case so your argument spins in circles. It's almost like George is playing with our expectation and trying to see how far he can string us along to believe the impossible. Every time it feels like she's actually going to go, George is like "Lol, nope!". Maybe that's the entire point, don't you think?

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

You're trying to argue that GRRM has some genius plan to make Essos the centre of the narrative and that all the stuff he has done in Westeros actually is filler. That does flip my argument around but its a silly notion. Theres subverting tropes and then there is purposeful misdirection.

But neither of them has to be filler, it's a sad way to read the story if you think that. There are two main arcs in the story, Ice and Fire, with all the smaller threads that weave around them, and at some point they will meet and fuse into the conclusion of the series.

The War of the Five Kings is essential because it's going to leave Westeros vulnerable to the invasion of the Others. Their folly will make the Westerosi lose their homeland and poetically travel back the way the Andals and the First Men came. And Dany's plot in Essos is essential too, because without her actions all these refugees would have ended up as slaves.

How will these Westerosi exiles fuse with the bloodied and revolutionized nations in Essos? That's the end of the story... setting up this future of a mixed humanity is the "dream of spring".

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why was one of the salient points about ADWD that Dany should be a conqueror and leave Mereen to the Mereenese if she wasn't going to Westeros? Why have characters like Quathe and all the visions in the House of the Undying pointing to her destiny in Westeros? I could go on. Essos isn't important. It really has just been giving Dany stuff to do until GRRM feels its a good time to let her into the real storyline. 

You are projecting your own expectations on the text. None of Dany's prophecies places her in Westeros or mentions Westeros. She sees things that happened or are going to happen in Westeros while she isn't there, such as the Red Wedding and Mad King Aerys during the sack of King's Landing. That's it. As for Quaithe, she does indeed say "To reach the west, you must go east", but how do you know she didn't mean the western part of Essos?

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

When I read Danys POV her thoughts are very much on Westeros, her family and this sense of destiny that she has. They are purposefully written to get you invested in her wanting to go to Westeros; because it is what she wants to do.

Again, you are projecting your desires on the character. Or at the very least you are interpreting the text in a very specific and limited way.

In storytelling there is a concept called "Want vs Need". A character starts the story by Wanting something that either they can't achieve or isn't exactly as they expect. This Want is usually associated with a form of Fulfillment or Growth, i.e. the character believes she will feel Fulfilled when she gets what she Wants.

So the character sets on a Journey to get what she Wants, but along the way will be confronted by what she really Needs. Recognizing the Need and putting it ahead of the Want is how the character experiences Growth, and eventual Fulfillment through the Need rather than the Want.

In Dany's case, she Wants to get to Westeros in order to Fulfill her destiny of becoming Queen. But throughout her arc, she realizes that in order to become Queen she Needs people who would follow her, and/or she Needs to protect her people. Her expressed desire to go to Westeros is only there to show us her character growth, basically (and it doubles up as a trap for the reader's expectations).

I would be very surprised if Dany, after coming so close to realizing her Need, will just abandon it and sail away to pursue her Want. She would regress as a character, since putting the Want ahead of the Need is usually either tragic or infantile (see Robb and Joffrey respectively).

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1 hour ago, The Coconut God said:

Even though Dany is a Targaryen, there is nothing Westerosi about her. She was raised in Braavos and became empowered by embracing Dothraki culture. She is very much an Essosi cosmopolite. And let us not forget that Targaryens were Valyrians. The first Valyrian empire was on Essos.

On the second page of this thread, I brought up a summary of an early 2003 reading of the chapter in question. Dany never flew on Drogon in that chapter. It had Drogon descending at the opening of the pit to eat Barsena, but in the original version this was merely a stand-in or precursor to the Hazzea moment. Everything else in that chapter is set up for a Meereen vs Yunkai conflict, almost identical to the setup in ADwD (dragons were free, all the players got introduced, etc., check the link). I'm sorry, but the story in Slaver's Bay was always going play out like this, even when it started after the gap.

If you put too many characters in the same place, none of them will get an interesting story. If Dany, Euron and the Martells were involved in the War of the Five Kings, they would have either picked sides or they would have stomped on other characters' stories.

And it is entirely realistic that some parties come late to the conflict, or start something only after the main combatants are spent. That happens all the time in history.

What journey, though? Seeing Tywin taken by surprise by dragons? Yeah, that would have been priceless. Seeing Stannis grind his teeth asking himself if maybe this Targaryen heir with dragons has a better claim than him? Also really cool.

But you can't have Tywin vs Dany without ruining the amazing sendoff he got. He had to feel totally safe and in control when he got killed by his own son on the shitter. And Tyrion had to do it for his own reasons. Having Dany and her dragons in the equation would have totally ruined it. And you think Walder Frey would have cared about red weddings if he had dragons flying around the Twins? Same with Stannis, having him die pointlessly to the Others because of his rigid sense of duty and his conviction that he has to play Azor Ahai will be much more satisfying and relevant to his arc than a shallow interaction with Dany.

The beauty of it though is that you can imagine these interactions quite easily, especially as a first time reader, because the text invites you do think about them and suggests what they would be like with clever parallels and allusions. And since it does that, it doesn't need to make them canon.

He wouldn't kill everybody, and the survivors would still be key to the story. Why is the continent so important? Plus you act like the entirety of Essos isn't part of Humanity as well. Why do the wildlings matter? Jon is basically the only POV who interacts with them.

You keep saying that in some form or another in every paragraph. I hope you don't think repetition counts as a good argument. All you're doing is reinforcing your highly rigid personal preference. I will also repeat my question from my previous post: Why should Dany as a character not conquer the Free Cities? She has the Dothraki, they're in her way, she would free some slaves, she would earn prestige and loot. Come on, win me over. Why not?

You're kind of countering your own point here. Same old idea, the story is only bad if Dany is supposed to get to Westeros, but you have no way of telling if that is actually the case so your argument spins in circles. It's almost like George is playing with our expectation and trying to see how far he can string us along to believe the impossible. Every time it feels like she's actually going to go, George is like "Lol, nope!". Maybe that's the entire point, don't you think?

But neither of them has to be filler, it's a sad way to read the story if you think that. There are two main arcs in the story, Ice and Fire, with all the smaller threads that weave around them, and at some point they will meet and fuse into the conclusion of the series.

The War of the Five Kings is essential because it's going to leave Westeros vulnerable to the invasion of the Others. Their folly will make the Westerosi lose their homeland and poetically travel back the way the Andals and the First Men came. And Dany's plot in Essos is essential too, because without her actions all these refugees would have ended up as slaves.

How will these Westerosi exiles fuse with the bloodied and revolutionized nations in Essos? That's the end of the story... setting up this future of a mixed humanity is the "dream of spring".

You are projecting your own expectations on the text. None of Dany's prophecies places her in Westeros or mentions Westeros. She sees things that happened or are going to happen in Westeros while she isn't there, such as the Red Wedding and Mad King Aerys during the sack of King's Landing. That's it. As for Quaithe, she does indeed say "To reach the west, you must go east", but how do you know she didn't mean the western part of Essos?

Again, you are projecting your desires on the character. Or at the very least you are interpreting the text in a very specific and limited way.

In storytelling there is a concept called "Want vs Need". A character starts the story by Wanting something that either they can't achieve or isn't exactly as they expect. This Want is usually associated with a form of Fulfillment or Growth, i.e. the character believes she will feel Fulfilled when she gets what she Wants.

So the character sets on a Journey to get what she Wants, but along the way will be confronted by what she really Needs. Recognizing the Need and putting it ahead of the Want is how the character experiences Growth, and eventual Fulfillment through the Need rather than the Want.

In Dany's case, she Wants to get to Westeros in order to Fulfill her destiny of becoming Queen. But throughout her arc, she realizes that in order to become Queen she Needs people who would follow her, and/or she Needs to protect her people. Her expressed desire to go to Westeros is only there to show us her character growth, basically (and it doubles up as a trap for the reader's expectations).

I would be very surprised if Dany, after coming so close to realizing her Need, will just abandon it and sail away to pursue her Want. She would regress as a character, since putting the Want ahead of the Need is usually either tragic or infantile (see Robb and Joffrey respectively).

 

Well I really must disagree, Dany is definitely going to Westeros in the final novel. I can't tell if you are trolling me or being actually serious. What would be the point of having Tyrion and Vic go all the way to Essos just to sail back? That would be filler. We know Tyrion is going to have a reckoning with his family, hes got no stake in anything in Essos. Dany has visions of fighting undead on the Trident, those are specific to Westeros.

The journey Aegon is currently doing. Dany lands with a small army and finds herself involved with the Game of Thrones and has to win over various factions to her cause. Her dragons aren't fully grown and she is beset by problems. That is the journey I want to see. Not, whats likely to happen where we have all this occur in a second rate Conan the Barbarian land and by the time she finally gets to Westeros in the final book her only serious opposition is Arthas from World of Warcraft. The Game of Thrones is the heart of this story.

Because the factions in Essos are dull, boring and do not capture the imagination like the Houses of Westeros do. I would care if, I dunno, Bear Island got destroyed. Didn't bat an eyelash when everyone at Astapor dies. Because GRRM depicts everyone from that region as downright bizarre and frankly it dehumanises them; they stop being real people and become caricatures who have silly haircuts, who have soldiers on stilts and are all morbidly obese and shifty. Whereas all the Westerosi characters are more grounded in reality and you feel as if these are real people going through real problems that matter. So when a guy from the Riverlands comes before Ned you get a reaction. Plus it just isn't coming from the direction I prefer my High Fantasy. Never cared much for Conan the Barbarian and the whole oriental fantasy thing, always felt very strange and bizarre. Honestly I only cared about any of these people because Dany cared, because they were just "feet with mouths" as Dany uncharitably thought of them.  The only good thing likely to come from the next book is that she will go Genghis Khan on Essos and kill most of them off. None of the Essos cultures feel real or like something that could exist. They deviate wildly from Westeros which is mostly just an adaptation of medieval England and Islamic Spain. The stuff in Essos is like Flash Gordon with swords. One of GRRM great strengths is that his Westeros feels more mature and grounded than say Gondor; that just goes out the window with Essos. 

Of course its filler. Dany should be in Westeros by now. GRRM is just writing all this to keep Dany out of the stories he has going for other characters. There is no reason he could not explore thematic and character driven stuff with Dany in Westeros and should insist on having it take place on another continent.

Yes I want to see the character succeed after reading about their story for so many books over so many years. Why would I want to see them fail? If Dany fails then it has to be a statement, like Neds death about the pitfalls of power and morality. 

Dany will be like Robert Baratheon, she will take the throne but have that realisation too late. I also don't think its duty to her people that she needs. What Dany needs is something she has had from the beginning with Drogo, to be loved and live a quiet life. The whole House in the Red Door. So my guess is that she will lose any chance to be happy. That to me feels more GRRM to do than having her do what Rand does at the end of Wheel of Time where he plays his part and then departs quietly.

Essentially, Danys story is good despite it being set in Essos. Everyone else's is better for being set in Westeros.

 

 

 

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On 10/12/2017 at 6:49 PM, The Coconut God said:

To further cement my point, I suggest reading this summary of an early Dany chapter from the initial version of ADwD, back before George decided to remove the 5 year gap. The summary is from February 2003 and it's for an early version of the chapter with Drogon in Daznak's Pit.

The fact that one of the first chapters after the gap was moved to the very end of the published ADwD seems to imply that everything else in the book is merely describing what was supposed to happen during those five years, but if you look at the summary closely, you'll realize that this assumption is very, very wrong. While the prototype chapter did have a couple of scenes that were ultimately kept, including Drogon flying in the pit to feed on Barsena and the boar, the background details are much closer to the beginning of ADwD:

- It establishes the Sons of the Harpy (called there Sons of Ghis) as opponents to her rule in Meereen.

- It introduces Raznak and Skahaz, shave pates and brazen beasts, as well as the murders of Unsullied city guards.

- It introduces Hizdar as an important political figure and prospective husband, but Dany is not married with him yet, she's merely opening the pits as a gesture of good will to former gladiators and an attempt to mollify the Ghiscari.

- It establishes that Barristan training knights.

- It establishes Cleos the Butcher King, who is waging war with Yunkai at the time the chapter takes place.

- It establishes that the Yunkai'i are hiring sellsword companies and the Golden Company is brought up.

- The dragons are still free and stealing sheep from the surrounding villages, which Dany pays for.

- There is no attempt on Dany's life and she does not go in the pit to ride Drogon. The chapter seems to end on the ominous note of Drogon eating human flesh. This leads me to believe that in the early version Daznak's Pit was either the reason Drogon fled and Dany locked up her other dragons, or at least a precursor to Hazzea.

The similarity of all these plot points to the situation at the beginning of the published book leads me to believe that even with the five year gap in place, George intended Dany's ADwD arc to be about the war in Slaver's Bay. There is no reason to believe his struggle with the story, Meereenes knot or 5 year gap, changed her intended path in any meaningful way.

Fascinating! Thanks so much for sharing. The comments are nearly as enlightening. 

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15 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Well I really must disagree, Dany is definitely going to Westeros in the final novel. I can't tell if you are trolling me or being actually serious. What would be the point of having Tyrion and Vic go all the way to Essos just to sail back? That would be filler. We know Tyrion is going to have a reckoning with his family, hes got no stake in anything in Essos. Dany has visions of fighting undead on the Trident, those are specific to Westeros.

Victarion is going to steal a dragon, I'd say that's pretty important.

Tyrion is going to enter Dany's service, so he will go wherever she sends him. Braavos is a pretty compelling end game destination for him, because Tysha is there (known to us as the Sailor's Wife), and Tysha is one of the people who influenced Tyrion's life the most, probably as much as Tywin. His daughter Lana (hint hint) is also there. And that's not all...

Spoiler

In the pre-released Mercy chapter we see a play about Tyrion in which he is painted as a villain, responsible for murdering Joffrey, raping Sansa, etc. It would be interesting to see what influence that play will have if he ends up in or dealing with Braavos.

 

15 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Because the factions in Essos are dull, boring and do not capture the imagination like the Houses of Westeros do. I would care if, I dunno, Bear Island got destroyed. Didn't bat an eyelash when everyone at Astapor dies. Because GRRM depicts everyone from that region as downright bizarre and frankly it dehumanises them; they stop being real people and become caricatures who have silly haircuts, who have soldiers on stilts and are all morbidly obese and shifty. Whereas all the Westerosi characters are more grounded in reality and you feel as if these are real people going through real problems that matter. So when a guy from the Riverlands comes before Ned you get a reaction. Plus it just isn't coming from the direction I prefer my High Fantasy.

The bolded part is your problem. Either stick to books you like, or learn to expand your tastes if you want to enjoy more than that.

I personally didn't feel the people of Essos are in any way less human than those in Westeros. It's strange you mention the villagers from the Riverlands who came to petition Ned, because at that point we knew next o nothing about that area, they were just vaguely European peasants, nothing to truly relate to other than that. Are you sure it's not just you having a severe bias against Non-European people and cultures?

And even so, Braavos is basically a mix of Venice, London and Amsterdam, and we've seen a lot of it already. If the endgame of the searies involved Braavos, you still wouldn't care?

 

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Fascinating! Thanks so much for sharing. The comments are nearly as enlightening. 

I'm happy I could bring something interesting to the table!

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6 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

Victarion is going to steal a dragon, I'd say that's pretty important.

Tyrion is going to enter Dany's service, so he will go wherever she sends him. Braavos is a pretty compelling end game destination for him, because Tysha is there (known to us as the Sailor's Wife), and Tysha is one of the people who influenced Tyrion's life the most, probably as much as Tywin. His daughter Lana (hint hint) is also there. And that's not all...

  Reveal hidden contents

In the pre-released Mercy chapter we see a play about Tyrion in which he is painted as a villain, responsible for murdering Joffrey, raping Sansa, etc. It would be interesting to see what influence that play will have if he ends up in or dealing with Braavos.

 

The bolded part is your problem. Either stick to books you like, or learn to expand your tastes if you want to enjoy more than that.

I personally didn't feel the people of Essos are in any way less human than those in Westeros. It's strange you mention the villagers from the Riverlands who came to petition Ned, because at that point we knew next o nothing about that area, they were just vaguely European peasants, nothing to truly relate to other than that. Are you sure it's not just you having a severe bias against Non-European people and cultures?

And even so, Braavos is basically a mix of Venice, London and Amsterdam, and we've seen a lot of it already. If the endgame of the searies involved Braavos, you still wouldn't care?

 

I'm happy I could bring something interesting to the table!

 

Because GRRM belabours how silly and ridiculous the people in Essos are. The dress, the customs, the hair, what they do, what they say and this all demolishes any feeling that this is a real and grounded world. What makes the Riverland peasant scene work is that this is an ordinary humble man making an impassioned retelling of what happened to Ned. He feels like a real person. Now when we have perfumed toga people with bright red horned hair going about and then in ADWD GRRM wants us to take these people seriously it becomes really quite difficult when we have to imagine these people complaining about what Dany not letting them cut peoples nipples off. 

I mean GRRM dedicated whole pages to describing how pathetic and ridiculous the Yunkish army was, whilst at the same time trying to say how they were a threat to Daenerys and build up hype for a big battle. 

Want example of non-European civ's in other fantasy I like? 

* Seanchan

* Aiel

* Seafolk

* Tsuranani

* Haradrim

* Easterlings

Also the first four all get major characters and their civilisations aren't depicted as cartoonish jokes. Basically the above factions are cool. Most have a solid militaristic edge to them. Within the context of their own worlds they feel believable enough and theres none of the silliness like you get with all the Essos cultures. Why is it for example that GRRM can write the Lannister army as a powerful, militaristc war machine. But depicts all the armies of Essos as either cartoonish jokes or silly Conan the Barabarian knock off's. The Aiel for example have far more development and characterisation than the Dothraki do. They are shown as varied and real people who are mature actors in the story, some are good and some are bad. They aren't just brainless drones who mouth "it is known" and blubber about not shedding blood in the sacred city. So even in whats an extremely high fantasy and idealised faction the Aiel still come across as a real people and are cool. The Dothraki come across as cartoon characters and third rate Conan knock offs.

Compare that to when he writes about any Westerosi characters. Briennes trip in the Riverlands where we see ordinary people dealing with the consequences of war. Where she speaks to many people as actual intelligent actors. Then we have Tyrion who meets an obese man who keeps a menagerie of deformed slaves. One makes me yearn for peace, the other makes think the world would be better if all Ghiscari were exterminated. 

 

 

 

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@Tyrion1991 I think your own biases make you underestimate how weird reality can be. You think the Ghiscari are ridiculous? Did you hear about the rat temple of Karni Mata? About sadhus who paint themselves with human ashes? About the Chinese practice of foot binding? About the use of lip plates, that appeared independently on two separate continents? Or neck rings? Even some practices considered normal in the Western world, like circumcision and silicon implants would be considered disturbing if we weren't used with them.

The Ghiscari nobility is powerful, entitled, decadent and complacent. Why is it so shocking that they developed a penchant for crazy hairstyles? Many real world cultures, ranging from Ancient Egypt to 17th-18th century Europe used elaborate wigs as a status symbol (if you don't want to read the whole article, at least check this beauty out).

At least one of the "absurd" Yukish units was also inspired by a real unit from 18th century Prussia, King Frederick Wiliam I's Potsdam Giants. They weren't using stilts, but many of them were unfit for combat because they suffered from gigantism, and the King had them stretched on a rack in an attempt to make them even taller (and yes, there were attempts to breed them with tall women to produce more tall soldiers).

 

Of course, in the books the weirdness is compounded by two factors:

1. All of the POVs are unfamiliar with Ghiscari culture, so they tend to emphasize all the differences and present them as strange while understanding little of how that society actually works. This isn't really bad writing though, as it is a realistic portrayal of cultural bias, and you can catch a glimpse of the Ghiscari perspective through their lines and gestures.

You can argue George could have used a Ghiscari POV in a prologue or epilogue chapter, but I'm not sure it would have been worth replacing the existing one. Plus, a Ghiscari POV might have given too much away about who the Harpy is and who is and isn't loyal to Dany in Meereen.

2. George tends to exaggerate the visuals a little bit, a small concession realism makes to the epic. This happens in Westeros as much as in Essos even if you didn't notice it: heraldry is used every where (and a lot of people recognize it), suits of armor are frequently elaborate, even when we're talking about simple knights like Sandor Clegane, most of the castles are spectacular and placed in a unique location, there's a gigantic wall of ice across the realm... Even the wildlings leaders have some sort of epic armor, like the Lord of Bones or have a unique way of killing, special power or personal legend.

People wearing their hair shaped like horns or lizards, or painted in garish colors, is simply consistent with the level of flair present everywhere else in the books.

 

As for your examples, the Tolkien ones are extremely simplistic, to the point I can surmise you liked them because they were barely there. The Haradrim are people on elephants and that's it. The Easterlings I didn't even remember, that's how developed they were.

I'm not familiar with your other examples, but I will assume they are a little better. From a quick glance over the wiki, the Seanchan and Aiel are simply closer to something a Westerner would be familiar with, i.e. Middle Eastern + Native American. One uses slaves to communicate between social castes and the other serves you for a year and a day if you touch them with your weapon, both of which are highly impractical and unrealistic customs, so I'm going to deduce that it is indeed familiarity you find appealing, and not the fact that they have a more realistically constructed culture.

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6 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

@Tyrion1991 I think your own biases make you underestimate how weird reality can be. You think the Ghiscari are ridiculous? Did you hear about the rat temple of Karni Mata? About sadhus who paint themselves with human ashes? About the Chinese practice of foot binding? About the use of lip plates, that appeared independently on two separate continents? Or neck rings? Even some practices considered normal in the Western world, like circumcision and silicon implants would be considered disturbing if we weren't used with them.

The Ghiscari nobility is powerful, entitled, decadent and complacent. Why is it so shocking that they developed a penchant for crazy hairstyles? Many real world cultures, ranging from Ancient Egypt to 17th-18th century Europe used elaborate wigs as a status symbol (if you don't want to read the whole article, at least check this beauty out).

At least one of the "absurd" Yukish units was also inspired by a real unit from 18th century Prussia, King Frederick Wiliam I's Potsdam Giants. They weren't using stilts, but many of them were unfit for combat because they suffered from gigantism, and the King had them stretched on a rack in an attempt to make them even taller (and yes, there were attempts to breed them with tall women to produce more tall soldiers).

 

Of course, in the books the weirdness is compounded by two factors:

1. All of the POVs are unfamiliar with Ghiscari culture, so they tend to emphasize all the differences and present them as strange while understanding little of how that society actually works. This isn't really bad writing though, as it is a realistic portrayal of cultural bias, and you can catch a glimpse of the Ghiscari perspective through their lines and gestures.

You can argue George could have used a Ghiscari POV in a prologue or epilogue chapter, but I'm not sure it would have been worth replacing the existing one. Plus, a Ghiscari POV might have given too much away about who the Harpy is and who is and isn't loyal to Dany in Meereen.

2. George tends to exaggerate the visuals a little bit, a small concession realism makes to the epic. This happens in Westeros as much as in Essos even if you didn't notice it: heraldry is used every where (and a lot of people recognize it), suits of armor are frequently elaborate, even when we're talking about simple knights like Sandor Clegane, most of the castles are spectacular and placed in a unique location, there's a gigantic wall of ice across the realm... Even the wildlings leaders have some sort of epic armor, like the Lord of Bones or have a unique way of killing, special power or personal legend.

People wearing their hair shaped like horns or lizards, or painted in garish colors, is simply consistent with the level of flair present everywhere else in the books.

 

As for your examples, the Tolkien ones are extremely simplistic, to the point I can surmise you liked them because they were barely there. The Haradrim are people on elephants and that's it. The Easterlings I didn't even remember, that's how developed they were.

I'm not familiar with your other examples, but I will assume they are a little better. From a quick glance over the wiki, the Seanchan and Aiel are simply closer to something a Westerner would be familiar with, i.e. Middle Eastern + Native American. One uses slaves to communicate between social castes and the other serves you for a year and a day if you touch them with your weapon, both of which are highly impractical and unrealistic customs, so I'm going to deduce that it is indeed familiarity you find appealing, and not the fact that they have a more realistically constructed culture.

Because those things like the heraldry, big castles makes those factions cool. It's emphasises their identity and power as formidable and militaristic forces on the world stage. It conveys a romanticism of the factions and their whole mythology. Basically he makes them cool and it's why the show heavily leans on this symbolism in characterising the different regions of Westeros.

There are plenty of powerful and cool eastern cultures that GRRM could have used for inspiration like Sassanid Persia with its Cataphracts, Byzantium with the Varangian Guard, the Jannisaries of the Ottoman Empire, pretty much any period of China not to mention all the nomadic people's.  However for most of the eastern he infuses far too much orientalism into the story. All the Essos characters are bright popenjay and deeply demasculated to an incredible extent. You will find plenty of people who will think the Ironborn are cool; you will never hear the same from any Essos culture who aren't Dothraki. Because he basically portrays them as pathetic and contemptable people of no significance.

The Dothraki themselves have the opposite problem. They are so OTT as to be ridiculous. As I said, they are Conan the Barbarian knock offs and anachronistic. Mongols wore armor. Having them all be bare chested like native Americans is ridiculous. Plus as I said they don't act like normal people they seem only concerned with their traditions and superstitious rituals. Its a bit like how GRRM wanted people to take Darkstar seriously as a character by making him edgy. So he has Daenerys and Jorah constantly talk about how awesome and dangerous the Dothraki are. How everyone of them seems to be a powerful warrior who doesn't fear death and takes all their blood oaths seriously. Since so much of the series is about deconstructing or at least qualifying fantasy tropes this depiction seems a little off. Here we have the author basically obnoxiously saying "look how awesome these guys are!" The result is that IMO I just didn't find them as cool or as interesting as say the Greyjoys, Martels or any House really. Again those felt like real and nuanced people whereas the Dothraki were all cartoon characters. 

I mean the obvious counter point is the Dornish. Clearly an eastern culture and viewed as a little weird. But they are constantly shown as real people, with a cool mythology and grounded in historical factions. So I can't see why GRRM couldn't apply those same principles to the Ghiscari, Dothraki and Free Cities who are all just weird, contemptible and cartoonish.

 

I am refering more to the visual style of the Haradrin and Easterlings in the films rather than character building. They look dangerous. They look cool and reasonably grounded. Not the minions of Ming the Merciless.

 

 

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@Tyrion1991 Sorry for the late response, I was quite busy in the last few days.

If the Ghiscari weren't decadent, Dany would have never managed to trick the Astapori or take Meereen the way she did. The story is logically consistent in that regard.

An enemy doesn't need to be militarily competent or "badass" to kill you, this isn't a game where upgraded units or higher level characters just smash through the other guys like paper. Gollum is a perfect example of a weak, slimy character who nevertheless feels like he could pose a very real threat to the protagonists. And the Ghiscari are not even that weak. You forget that they still outnumber Dany's forces, they control all the resources, and they have a lot of supporters inside the city. In fact, they are so deeply entrenched in Slaver's Bay that it's unlikely Dany will have anything more than a pyrrhic victory there.

Personally, I find the situation in Meereen just as fascinating as King's Landing, and I'm happy the Ghiscari aren't a simplistic culture based around a special unit from Age of Empires II. I've seen other people accuse George of orientalism with regards to Slaver's Bay, but that's a very reductive interpretation. Ghiscari are a composite culture with foundations in the Ancient world as well as the Middle East, India and China. Rome was pretty much the only civilization with a culture of gladiator fights. Old, upper class women wearing veils as a status symbol (rather than the universal, religious use in the Muslim world) was a custom in Ancient Greece. Temple prostitution happened in Sumer, Corinth, the late Roman empire, as well as India. The Unsullied are inspired by Spartans. The brightly colored hairdos are reminiscent of Greek and Roman military crests. "Lockstep-legions" are also Roman, and the Harpy could be a parallel to the Roman Eagle. Slave soldiers, on the other hand, were most effectively used in the Middle East. Eating dog meat and insects comes from China and Southeast Asia. Pyramids used as palaces or temples rather than burial mounds are specific of Mesoamerica and Southeast Asia, etc.

So, as you see, the sources of inspiration are quite diverse. The end result has its own identity without outright paralleling a real life culture (unless you as a reader choose to focus on a single element and ignore everything else).

As for the Dothraki, you call them exaggeratedly masculine, but you ignore the Dothraki Dany interacts with are at the very top of the hierarchy, Drogo and his bloodriders, and even then we only see them posing and posturing, never engaged in a conflict with a powerful foe. Funnily enough, Drogo dies of infection, so you can say George only used that trope in order to subvert it. Dany's own Dothraki followers are nowhere near that over the top.

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On ‎31‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:11 PM, The Coconut God said:

@Tyrion1991 Sorry for the late response, I was quite busy in the last few days.

If the Ghiscari weren't decadent, Dany would have never managed to trick the Astapori or take Meereen the way she did. The story is logically consistent in that regard.

An enemy doesn't need to be militarily competent or "badass" to kill you, this isn't a game where upgraded units or higher level characters just smash through the other guys like paper. Gollum is a perfect example of a weak, slimy character who nevertheless feels like he could pose a very real threat to the protagonists. And the Ghiscari are not even that weak. You forget that they still outnumber Dany's forces, they control all the resources, and they have a lot of supporters inside the city. In fact, they are so deeply entrenched in Slaver's Bay that it's unlikely Dany will have anything more than a pyrrhic victory there.

Personally, I find the situation in Meereen just as fascinating as King's Landing, and I'm happy the Ghiscari aren't a simplistic culture based around a special unit from Age of Empires II. I've seen other people accuse George of orientalism with regards to Slaver's Bay, but that's a very reductive interpretation. Ghiscari are a composite culture with foundations in the Ancient world as well as the Middle East, India and China. Rome was pretty much the only civilization with a culture of gladiator fights. Old, upper class women wearing veils as a status symbol (rather than the universal, religious use in the Muslim world) was a custom in Ancient Greece. Temple prostitution happened in Sumer, Corinth, the late Roman empire, as well as India. The Unsullied are inspired by Spartans. The brightly colored hairdos are reminiscent of Greek and Roman military crests. "Lockstep-legions" are also Roman, and the Harpy could be a parallel to the Roman Eagle. Slave soldiers, on the other hand, were most effectively used in the Middle East. Eating dog meat and insects comes from China and Southeast Asia. Pyramids used as palaces or temples rather than burial mounds are specific of Mesoamerica and Southeast Asia, etc.

So, as you see, the sources of inspiration are quite diverse. The end result has its own identity without outright paralleling a real life culture (unless you as a reader choose to focus on a single element and ignore everything else).

As for the Dothraki, you call them exaggeratedly masculine, but you ignore the Dothraki Dany interacts with are at the very top of the hierarchy, Drogo and his bloodriders, and even then we only see them posing and posturing, never engaged in a conflict with a powerful foe. Funnily enough, Drogo dies of infection, so you can say George only used that trope in order to subvert it. Dany's own Dothraki followers are nowhere near that over the top.

Its got little to do with competence or the actual success of the various forces. We are talking about depiction. The Ironborn for example, as depicted by GRRM what you see is objectively a force which lost one rebellion, failed to hold onto the undefended castles in the North and is totally dependent upon Eurons magic for most of its success. The Slavers have destroyed one of the largest cities in the world and put everyone inside it to death. Its the single greatest loss of life in the series so far. They are also at the gates of Mereen with a sizable army and could conceivably defeat Daenerys. But GRRM depicts the Ironborn so much more favorably. Men of action, cool armor, all the lore of them fighting sea monsters, how they seamlessly fit into this wider patchwork of competing houses, the familial struggles of the Greyjoys; it all conveys a very vivid and interesting picture of a warlike seaborn society. With the slavers GRRM was at pains to show how terrible both armies were on all sides, with the vast Yunkish host routed by the fake Unsullied. Its the one eyed fighting the blind. Quentyns POV says less about the chaos of war than it spends mocking the Ghsicari armies. The role of the slightly more effective New Ghis Legionaries or sellswords is heavily played down and not the focus. So whilst there are some token elements derived from Ancient Rome and Greece these are completely neutered by his constant belittling of the Ghiscari as stupid, incompetent, bizarre and downright ridiculous. If he wanted to depict this as a serious army he would either depict the New Ghis as legit Romans or the Sellswords as Italian Condotteri. However he clearly really enjoys the ridiculous descriptions. For example, in Arrianes preview chapter she meets one of the Golden Company who is described as a bare-chested bruiser with two chains for weapons. This isn’t World of Warcraft. See when GRRM does OTT descriptions like Dagmar Cleftjaw having his face split open, it only serves to reinforce the character of the Ironborn. But with a lot of the Essos characters this doesn’t work. It comes across as ridiculous and undermines his efforts to depict many of the factions as a serious or legitimate threat.

So GRRM stresses the bizarre and freakish elements in Essos. He does not, as he does with the Westeros factions, ground them in a relatable and easily identifiable setting. Being basically Western Europe in the Late Middle Ages with a splash of ahistorical viking shenanigans. GRRM doesn’t really do that much to alter these forces from the historical reality. A Lannister or even Northern army would have blended in perfectly with any force during the War of the Roses. So actually GRRM does very consciously try to ground his factions in a historical reality. I could never imagine any of the Essos armies existing. GRRM completely twists and bends out of the shape the classical world until it is unrecognizable. Which he does not do with the Westerosi factions.

To list a few of the differences:

·         Altering the ethnicity of the Romans/Greeks

·         Altering the climate to be significantly more dry and arid than Italy or Greece

·         The Classical World was well known for masses of citizen infantry soldiers. Apart from New Ghis this is not the norm. They did not really use slave soldiers. In fact they very notion of slave soldiers is completely antithetical to both nations ideal of the citizen soldier.

·         Whilst the Faith of the Seven is almost a carbon copy of Catholicism GRRM makes the Ghiscari religions very different from the Olympian Pantheon.

·         The soldiers do not wear the same armour/weapons as the Greeks/Romans. Such as the Lorica Segmata or Linothorax. A Scuta or Apsis. A Sarissa, hoplon or gladius. The Unsullied come close and seem to fight in a bizarre amalgam of a hoplite with a pilia throwing spear. They are also supposed to wear quilted tunics with bronze helms and that could be construed as being similar to a Macedonian Phalangites armor. But every other unit we are introduced to utterly defies comprehension. From archers on stilts, to chained up pikemen, to the weird sellsword light cavalry units who seem to wear anything from bronze armor to steel plate. The New Ghis Legionaries are another odd one out.

·         In terms of characterization, Romans or Greeks tend to be depicted as militaristic. Think Caesar or Alexander. This clashes with the decadent and aristocratic culture we are shown; plus the many insipid characters.

·         Romans/Greeks did not dye their hair and shape them into horns.

·         Architecture. Most of the cities in Essos have very eastern architecture such as pyramids and other oriental items. Classical cities like Athens or Rome wouldn’t have had them. They would have things like victory columns, triumphal arches, paved roads, aqueducts and other such things.

When you compare that to the Lannisters he really doesn’t do anything out of place. You have a recognizable Western European medieval civilization. You have got your knights, spearmen, longbows. They have lords who live in castles and cities. Sure, theres some fudging, they did not have spearmen during the war of the roses, Casterly Rock is impractically big, but these are minor quibbles; none of them undermine the essence or identity of the faction. So he makes all the Westerosi cultures easy to identify and grounded in a historical reality. Whereas he basically takes classical Rome and Greece, strips them of most of their identity, have them all dye their hair and start acting like morons. He then mixes in bizarre elements like slave soldiers which are completely contradictory to both those societies.

This is a bit beyond putting Saxons on horses and calling them the Riders of Rohan. Thats a small change. Whereas, really until they mention the fighting pits its hard to clock that the Ghiscari are meant to be Ancient Rome/Ancient Greece.  

See I think its extremely important that you aren’t left thinking that the antagonist is a joke. In ADWD the slavers are supposed to be a threat and we are supposed to be invested in Dany making a decision on protecting those they threaten. GRRM attempts at humor and his characterization of the Ghiscari undercut that at every turn. Rather than show a killing machine that is going to murder everyone in Mereen and cast them into slavery; he spends his time showing how stupid they are as the army dies of dysentery. When your antagonists are quite literally dying on the crapper its hard to take them seriously. Instead of fearing that Dany might lose we feel indifferent to the conflict. Or when you consider the rise of the Butcher King and the mediocrity of the defence of Astapor its hard to view the diseased folk of Astapor that arrive at Mereen as anything other than a problem. Again, the only reason we care is because Dany cares. But we are meant to feel invested in her decision and thats just not enough when the momentum of the story is inexorably pushing her away from the irrelevant struggles in Slavers Bay.

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