Tyrion1991

Why is Dany still in Essos?

77 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

...

Nice post... :)

BTW, since Mickey Mouse seems go come up a lot in this "discussion", Goodby Mickey Mouse is a good, fictionalized, piece of work about WWII fighter pilots.

Relevance to the thread: ugmm, somewhat subtle...

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On 10/12/2017 at 6:21 PM, the trees have eyes said:

I don't see what you think is "Disney" about emancipating tens of thousands of innocents from brutal lives and then struggling with the realities of the aftermath of such revolutionary changes.  I thought Disney was cartoon stuff with Mickey Mouse for kids but maybe I'm missing out here.

No, Disney is not Mickey Mouse. Ask anyone, Disney cartoons and comics are about Donald Duck and his friends and family. Except if you ask an American, who will just say, "Really? Disney still makes cartoons and comics?"

But I don't think ASoIaF should be Disneyfied. That would mean that all of the lead characters are sociopathic con artists with serious anger management issues and no pants on, instead of just half of them. And they'd regularly get attacked by family members, rivals, wild animals, anthropomorphized forces of nature, and occasionally even nuclear weapons, instead of the anthropomorphic forces of nature still being stuck behind a giant wall for five books and counting and only the family and rivals and animals attacking them. And Melisandre would have to change her name to Magica de Spell. Also, Donald has completely ruined a lot more than just two cities with his ill-advised schemes; I doubt Dany could keep up with him.

Besides, Carl Barks is dead, and GRRM might still live long enough to finish this series. So, please, let's not Disney it up.

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I believe Daenerys is where GRRM wants her for now. Her coming to Westeros would disrupt everything he built there. And he has not yet finished. fAegon, the Faith, Doran, the Lannisters... I don't think Daenerys will enter this "Game of Thrones". I believe she and the Others are to overthrow, to topple this petty game. Her dismal Essos adventures are to infuriate her and to bend her on her Fire and Blood penchant. Her true opponents are the Others, they will join on their battle field, Westeros.

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I think Dany, should stay in Essos. Remember the stories are different in the show and the books, and plus I feel like ether she might go mad or die. I'm betting on going mad. Due the targs incest. ;)

Edited by manchester_babe

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On 18/9/2017 at 8:59 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

So all that means is that I won't get to see Dany do the thing I wanted to see her do from the start of the series.

Which makes for a good story actually. ;) 

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On ‎23‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:24 AM, Caterina Sforza said:

Which makes for a good story actually. ;) 

 

Not at all. GRRM has said that we don't have Essosi POV because the story is fundamentally about Westeros. So where does that leave Dany who is going to very likely spend 6 out of 7 novels away from the main focus of the plot. Until ADWD she was the only POV character in Essos and it was essentially her band of followers going on little adventures. 

By the same token we are continuously reminded about the importance of the Dany going back to take the Iron Throne. In ADWD, there is a point where she seriously looks at taking an offers of a few Qaartheen ships and leaving; until its realised this won't work. Why? Well of course there this enormous wasteland that's conveniently preventing Daenerys from moving her 10,000 soldiers to Volantis and cannot get any ships. Whereas Aegon literally gifted an entire fleet on a whim in Volantis to drop him off in Westeros. Its a ridiculous set up and entirely contrived to keep Daenerys away from the main plot line.

 

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Not at all. GRRM has said that we don't have Essosi POV because the story is fundamentally about Westeros. So where does that leave Dany who is going to very likely spend 6 out of 7 novels away from the main focus of the plot. Until ADWD she was the only POV character in Essos and it was essentially her band of followers going on little adventures. 

By the same token we are continuously reminded about the importance of the Dany going back to take the Iron Throne. In ADWD, there is a point where she seriously looks at taking an offers of a few Qaartheen ships and leaving; until its realised this won't work. Why? Well of course there this enormous wasteland that's conveniently preventing Daenerys from moving her 10,000 soldiers to Volantis and cannot get any ships. Whereas Aegon literally gifted an entire fleet on a whim in Volantis to drop him off in Westeros. Its a ridiculous set up and entirely contrived to keep Daenerys away from the main plot line.

 

She could (she will, IMO) be facing the Others. Most probably though she will face Aegon first, but who knows. My point though is that the idea of Dany not getting the IT, the thing that she thinks she wants most, but ending up saving or assist the manking against the others it is a good story. 

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29 minutes ago, Caterina Sforza said:

She could (she will, IMO) be facing the Others. Most probably though she will face Aegon first, but who knows. My point though is that the idea of Dany not getting the IT, the thing that she thinks she wants most, but ending up saving or assist the manking against the others it is a good story. 

I am reading the books to see how this character goes about trying to take the Iron Throne. Why should I show any interest in a zombie apocalypse? Her plot has barely involved that for the last few books. Zombies have been done to death. They aren't interesting and frankly the whole faction is overpowered. Any idiot could lead an army like that and win. How can the struggles and failings of our characters matter against that?

Dany doesn't want the Throne because she is selfish or mad with power. She genuinely thinks it is her duty and birthright as an absolute monarch. The people are best served by her being in charge. It is why Dany turns aside countless chances to have a quiet life and be happy. Stay in Drogos tent as it were. You're assuming that Dany would win and have a fairy tale ending if she is Queen at the end which I don't think is correct. 

Now Jon being revealed as not being a bastard and elevated to become King; That would be a shameless power fantasy and cringe worthy. He is not the reluctant King. He is a man who wants to be vindicated and him becoming King would be giving dignity to his fantasy to shove his ultimate legitimacy against all those who mocked him for being a bastard. 

 

Also, that twist would only be rewarding if her fighting the Others is something we don't expect her to do anyway. Stannis going to the wall is unexpected. But Dany fighting Undead army in her Kingdom isn't. Her doing that shouldn't preclude her becoming Queen.

Edited by Tyrion1991

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On 8-10-2017 at 10:07 PM, The Coconut God said:

1. She simply decides she can't be arsed with fixing Essos anymore and scrams. You can argue she is considering this when she has that Jorah vision in the grasslands, but i prefer to look at that as a "moment of doubt the Heroine has when she reaches her lowest point" rather than "sudden realization that Jorah was right all along".

Doing this would put the character in a very bad light and it would be contradictory to her earlier development. What's the point of refusing Xaro's ships if she's going to break her commitment later anyway? Why have that scene at all, when you can avoid the contradiction simply by not giving her a choice - i.e., say she isn't leaving Meereen because the slavers would hunt her down for revenge.

2. She finds out about Aegon and goes to rescue or confront him. Again, this isn't really consistent with how the character is portrayed. Her answer to Quentin's proposal suggests she wouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction and change all her plans because of something happening half a world away.

3. She goes to rescue the dragon Victarion will steal. I think this is the most believable of the three, but it's still a knee-jerk reaction to something that can't be fixed in an obvious way. Sure, she probably cares more about her dragons than about Aegon, but what can she realistically do if she loses one? When Drogon left, she didn't go after him. How will she track him? How does she know he didn't go willingly or that whoever took him won't use the magic horn to enslave the other two? And most importantly, a rescue mission for her dragon is not the same thing as taking her whole army to Westeros for an invasion. Why would she take the Dothraki with her to hunt pirates? They're really bad at that.

Ultimately, I don't think she will be influenced by any of these things (or any combination of them), though I suppose George has the path open to him if he really really wants her to change course.

 

Verions 4: Well, Mereen is already going to Pale Mare hell. Selmy, Tyrion and Victarion have to solve the Yunkai issue on their own, and likely the Volantis fleet issue on their own too. With Mereen becoming a poisoned well of Pale Mare, they'll have to leave the city without waiting for Dany's return, and thus head West on their own, at least as far as Volantis. Dany can reach Volantis with a Dothraki army and thus meet up with the surviving trusted ones there, where she will learn the deal was made with the Tattered Prince to attack and take Pentos for him. When all of Slaver's Bay (the training centres of slaves) is in ruins, Dany has the enslaving Dothraki on her side and Volantis falls, then the two main slave sources are dealt with. With only sellsword companies to rely on, the Three Sisters will be bound to solve their survival with a peace treaty, for Aegon has the 10k Golden Company (the largest sellsword Company), Stannis's loan from the Iron Bank will attract more sellsword companies to Northern Westeros (you can bet on it that the Iron Bank will influence the news so that they can proclaim support for Stannis over Cersei publically, and the companies go where they are most sure to get paid), and Waters and other pirates have taken the Stepstones (allegedly) just west of them. The 3 Sister cities can't fight that many enemies with the leftover rabble companies and no fleet. Taking Pentos puts her back in the path of Illyrio and she will learn from him what she needs to learn to decide to make her jump to Westeros.

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On 9/18/2017 at 3:06 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

A zombie apocalypse is the most clichéd thing ever.

The political intrigue are at the heart of the story. Them, the Houses and the story of most of our characters have revolved around them. It has very little to do with these super zombies that can't be beaten and which will stomp everything. 

I want to get to see Dany square off with the Lannisters. Confront Stannis. Treat with the Northern Lords. Face up to Aegon and Varys schemes. Obviously see some cool stuff with the dragons and how her relationship with any future dragon riders will play out. These things are way more interesting than "Dany burns zombies, but it doesn't matter because theres millions of them. Oh no, an Other throws javelin and kills dragon coz it has super magic". It will be an entirely one sided fight and either GRRM pulls out a dues ex machina or everyone dies. I have no interest in this aspect of the plot and do not care to see it since our heroes can't do anything to deal with the threat; so it isn't an engaging storyline. Its just an over powered faction that will win because it has command over the weather and can just mindlessly charge until it wins.  

GRRM and no one else set up a cliche plot, in which zombies and demons are coming to get humanity, which is too embroiled in its wars and politics to notice. Humanity will have to put all that aside if it is to defeat the zombies.

Where GRRM's work stands out is in giving a lot of space to the politics. At some point, though, demons and zombies will get past the Wall,  and humans will have to put aside their differences and fight them. It's not like GRRM hasn't already spent a huge amount of time on politics and their consequences on the innocent. The entirety of volumes 1-3 was given over to the War of the Five Kings. Arya's two journeys through the Riverlands underlined how these "games" affect the commoners caught up in them.

Sooner than later, GRRM will have to bite the bullet and send in the monsters, as he's got two books to solve the convoluted mess he created in Feast and Dance.

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53 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I am reading the books to see how this character goes about trying to take the Iron Throne. Why should I show any interest in a zombie apocalypse?

Who said you should? 

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Zombies have been done to death. They aren't interesting and frankly the whole faction is overpowered. Any idiot could lead an army like that and win. How can the struggles and failings of our characters matter against that?

I'm not particular found of zombies but I am interested in intrigued by these particular species, the Others. And no, I do not think any idiot could defeat them. Personally, I am much more interested how all the pettiness, the greed for power will play out when time will come to face the biggest threat. In all honesty, I don't really care who sits on that ugly throne.

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She genuinely thinks it is her duty and birthright as an absolute monarch. 

Exactly. Which is why I do find ironic and even better story if she doesn't get it.

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You're assuming that Dany would win and have a fairy tale ending if she is Queen at the end which I don't think is correct. 

Nope. I'm not assuming anthing. You are actually. I have no clue as to how Dany's story will end. My feeling though is that there will be no IT, for enybody, in the end.

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Now Jon being revealed as not being a bastard and elevated to become King; That would be a shameless power fantasy and cringe worthy.

As opposed to a obvious entitled "Queen" with Dragons? Yep, so not fantasy that one. Lol

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But Dany fighting Undead army in her Kingdom isn't. Her doing that shouldn't preclude her becoming Queen.

It can though. There are so many possibilities as why that could happen and it isn't "her kingdom". Not yet anyway. That's the whole point. 

Edited by Caterina Sforza

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Heretically, I will posit that Dany is still in Esteros, precisely to allow the Zombie Apocalypse to occur, to allow her to be the savior.

[I don't believe it for an instant, but it does seem to be a reasonable view...]

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12 hours ago, Caterina Sforza said:

Who said you should? 

I'm not particular found of zombies but I am interested in intrigued by these particular species, the Others. And no, I do not think any idiot could defeat them. Personally, I am much more interested how all the pettiness, the greed for power will play out when time will come to face the biggest threat. In all honesty, I don't really care who sits on that ugly throne.

Exactly. Which is why I do find ironic and even better story if she doesn't get it.

Nope. I'm not assuming anthing. You are actually. I have no clue as to how Dany's story will end. My feeling though is that there will be no IT, for enybody, in the end.

As opposed to a obvious entitled "Queen" with Dragons? Yep, so not fantasy that one. Lol

It can though. There are so many possibilities as why that could happen and it isn't "her kingdom". Not yet anyway. That's the whole point. 

 

For something to be cliche it has to be done repeatedly. Most books do not involve female characters being a messianic figure and conquering the world. Believe me, I ve looked, this is unique to asoiaf. There are not Daenerys equivalents in other fantasy novels.

Jon is literally "some ranger from the North". He is an incredibly derivative and generic archetype of the male fantasy hero. The bastard with a hidden royal lineage. The master swordsman. The budding leader of men. An honourable man driven by his compassion and flawed by his untenpered and youthful impetuousness. It's been done and it's been done better.

So to me Danys story isn't cliche because the whole arc is a subversion of fantasy tropes. Jon is not. Jon is a trope.

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15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Verions 4: Well, Mereen is already going to Pale Mare hell. Selmy, Tyrion and Victarion have to solve the Yunkai issue on their own, and likely the Volantis fleet issue on their own too. With Mereen becoming a poisoned well of Pale Mare, they'll have to leave the city without waiting for Dany's return, and thus head West on their own, at least as far as Volantis. Dany can reach Volantis with a Dothraki army and thus meet up with the surviving trusted ones there, where she will learn the deal was made with the Tattered Prince to attack and take Pentos for him. When all of Slaver's Bay (the training centres of slaves) is in ruins, Dany has the enslaving Dothraki on her side and Volantis falls, then the two main slave sources are dealt with. With only sellsword companies to rely on, the Three Sisters will be bound to solve their survival with a peace treaty, for Aegon has the 10k Golden Company (the largest sellsword Company), Stannis's loan from the Iron Bank will attract more sellsword companies to Northern Westeros (you can bet on it that the Iron Bank will influence the news so that they can proclaim support for Stannis over Cersei publically, and the companies go where they are most sure to get paid), and Waters and other pirates have taken the Stepstones (allegedly) just west of them. The 3 Sister cities can't fight that many enemies with the leftover rabble companies and no fleet. Taking Pentos puts her back in the path of Illyrio and she will learn from him what she needs to learn to decide to make her jump to Westeros.

There are a few things to be said here. First of all, if Dany deals with Volantis, Pentos and L, M & T (Lemontea? Can we just call them that?), that's most of the Essosi conquest already. Why leave loose ends? Qohor may not have been a big part of ASoIaF so far, but it was the siege of Qohor that broke the first united khalasar and popularized Unsullied infantry. It would be poetic if she takes it (although if it does happen it will probably be off-page). Qohor is also called the City of Sorcerers, so we could learn something about blood magic there as an added bonus. With Qarth she has a history that continued in Dance, so a resolution would be welcome, even if it's no more than submission via emissary.

I also believe Norvos will be important, because Mellario Martell is there, and we don't know exactly what kind of influence her family has in the city. It has been hinted in Areo's chapters that Norvos is a slaver city, and we were told that Mellario used to be deeply protective of her children, one of which was roasted by Dany's dragons. There is potential for conflict there. Mellario could become an important character in Winds/Dream, just like Stannis became important after barely being mentioned in AGoT.

And, of course, there is Braavos, which raises probably the most interesting ethical, political and emotional questions. Say Dany does conquer the rest of Essos. Would she allow Braavos to remain independent because it's not a slaver city? Or because it's one of the few places in the world she associates with safety and happiness?

And even if she wants to, will she have enough control over the Dothraki to do it? If they agree to give up raiding and pillaging and unite under her it's probably not going to be because she opens their eyes to the evils of slavery, but because she will promise them conquests beyond their boldest dreams, with a dragon by her side to back that up. I can see her convincing them not to rape or enslave anyone because if she is the "Stallion who mounts the world" then technically everyone in the world is equally her subject, but telling them to leave a kingdom that refuses to pledge allegiance alone sounds contradictory to that image... so there is a possibility that she wouldn't be able to stop the momentum of the horde without undermining her leadership.

And what about the Braavosi themselves? Would they trust Dany, or would they consider her a dragon riding tyrant and a threat regardless of her attitude towards them? Especially if she conquers Pentos, which, regardless of what we readers know about Illyrio and possibly other magisters, is considered a city where slavery is forbidden. There is room for so much political drama here, especially if you throw Jon in the mix with a budding kingdom of Westerosi refugees that is financially dependent of Braavos but wants Dany to use her dragons to clear away the Others back home.

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On 9/18/2017 at 2:59 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I get that GRRM wanted to resolve this crisis of faith and self doubt that Dany has at the end of Storm of Swords. It does make sense to have a novel start and end with this. But I can't understand why he decided to have ADWD end with her buried even deeper in Essos with the Dothraki and Mereen unsettled. Why not end it with some resolution to the Mereen thing and then her just marching over to Pentos? To me that makes a lot more sense. It means she could join the main plot in Westeros instead of counting sheep in the Dothraki Sea. This all suggests that he wants to spend another novel explaining the Dothraki joining her rather than getting her to Westeros.

The only reasons I can think are:

* He thinks this is cool and people would enjoy it more than Dany invading Westeros.

* The Dothraki are a plot device to cut the Mereenese Knot. You have this super fast army that could sack every city in Essos if they wanted to and if they stop slavery then her enemies economy collapses. 

* GRRM has spent a long time describing all of these Essosi people and like in the Wheel of Time he wants them to participate in the War for the Dawn. Otherwise, we'd all forget they ever existed.

* He wants more time for the Dragons to grow and is concerned about an unbelievable growth spurt.

* He wants Dany reuniting with her various councillors and allies to play out before Dany reaches Westeros as some of these relationships are either very important or complicated. Tyrion, Jorah, Victarion, Quentyn's people and that's forgetting Marwyn and Moqorro. So he wants to set up Team Dany before the invasion starts.

* He wants to give Aegon time to become King and establish a firm hold on the continent to oppose Dany.

Basically do you think Dany isn't in Westeros because essentially the writer doesn't want her their yet, or is it because of some other reason?

Personally, I am sure Dany going Genghis Khan would be cool. But we already got to see her go all Spartacus. I don't see the need for her to become a messianic figure for yet another people to lead in her quest to reclaim the throne. I also really, really don't like the notion that the main thing I want to see Dany do, play the Game of Thrones in Westeros, is going to be crammed into the final book and possibly even be overshadowed by the Zombie Apocalypse. So all that means is that I won't get to see Dany do the thing I wanted to see her do from the start of the series.

Cause she has a second fire to light for death. (Beware of spoilers all ye who enter.)

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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On 10/8/2017 at 10:03 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Because GRRM likes to think of himself as "gardener" (as opposed to "architect"). Who, sadly, has never heard of things like pruning. So every plant that's already in his "garden" (or a wild, untended jungle) will get to grow uninhibited to the end of its natural life cycle and then some, no matter how useless and tasteless the fruit.

:lmao:

Actually, I kinda enjoy his more exotic fruits. 

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12 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Cause she has a second fire to light for death.

There should probably be some fair warning that this is a link to show spoilers. In any case, the event in question should happen fairly early on in winds, and I doubt it will play out the same. More likely the "fire for death" will be Norvos. That city is in the middle of a pine forest and has a lot of wooden structures, and is also very likely to oppose Dany because Mellario Martell will blame her for Quentin's death.

Edited by The Coconut God

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56 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Cause she has a second fire to light for death

 

Which is irrelevant. We have to spend an entire novel waiting for a predictable situation to unfold until Dany finally gets to Westeros.

So basically this amounts to more Essos filler and less time with Dany in Westeros where the real story is.

Also I have to be that guy. But it means Winds will end with a cliffhanger of her sailing off and another 6-7 year wait to get those 6-8 Daenerys chapters where she actually does stuff in Westeros...

 

GRRM ended ADWD by introducing a new plot line which should have been quickly resolved  rather than be the subject of Danys entire arc in Winds of Winter. It will involve more pointless Essos characters and meandering about as the author invents various geographical features to stop the plot advancing.

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This is the most recent info I could ever find where George talks about the pacing/plot progression of Winds. Take it as you will...

 

Spoiler

 

This, to me, sounds like Dany will be with the Dothraki for a long while in TWOW, and will get to Meereen at the end of TWOW where after that she and Tyrion will intersect, and after that they both set for home... but I clearly George does not give away what Dany has to finish in Essos first, like Pentos, Braavos, how she deals with Meereen, those pesky olive trees, etc...

http://ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

As he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall.”

I also asked Martin about one extremely eagerly anticipated character pairing: Tyrion and Daenerys. What will their interaction be like?

GRRM: “Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”

That “coming home” should get fans excited—unless Martin was merely speaking metaphorically. (The Targaryen words are “Fire and Blood.”)

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

There should probably be some fair warning that this is a link to show spoilers. 

Done. Sorry if I spoiled you. 

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