I don't care for the Zombie Apocalypse.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

you are a woman after my own heart 

Had to be said  

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

18 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

They do not have a lot of dragonglass and in winter will not be able to ship it to their men.

Highly speculative. 

 

18 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Realistically I would question how they can move a shambling horde of zombies through hundred foot snow and gale force blizzards. How can the zombies even see through the blizzard? Or, why they aren't decomposing or being eaten by various parasites and rodents as they advance.

Because they are not zombies, wights are corpses reanimated by ice magic.Wights don't "see" things; they are very likely controlled by WW. They aren't decomposing because magic. Also, the wights are in a frozen wasteland where the decomposition process is slowed and there are no flies or rodents in temperatures that low. 

18 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

One side is being forced to play by the rules and the other flat out ignores them. That is what makes the Others broken and over powered.

The Others are not human and we don't know what rules apply to them to say that they aren't playing by any. 

18 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

See this isn't GRRM being realistic or subverting tropes. This is him giving one faction all of their high fantasy advantages and stripping the other of theirs. That's not realistic and its basically just an unfair setup. The Others should play by the same rules as any other faction. How is sorcery a sword with no hilt, but the Others have absolute command over magic? Clear double standard. Why haven't the Other made any mistakes or misjudgements based on the fog of war? Why are they not beset by infighting and factionalism? Because they are over-powered. If they are over powered then our heroes don't stand a chance and the only they have lost is because the game has been rigged by the author; has nothing to do with the decisions of our characters.

GRRM is not giving WW too much power. They were definitely defeated once so obviously humans do have some power. We don't know if the Others have absolute command over magic. We don't even know how they do magic. You are jumping into a lot of premature conclusions about the Others and the power balance here. 

The Others have ice magic, the humans have fire magic. It seems like the Others are powerful because most humans have forgotten their history and all the stuff about fire magic. But with Dany and her dragons it's returning. We'll see how that works in the major battles to come. 

You are also forgetting that corpses can be reanimated with fire magic too. 

 

[Tyrion1991]

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

Im wondering if you realise that you are criticising this series on account of it not being like the other fantasy you like?  

Its an extremely self-centred (almost delusional) approach.

I don't see anyone giving a flying fuck about your Stormlight Archives.

You are a whiny little hipster dork. Go play with your frecking warhammers and dream about a world where you are a Q, because that is the only universe things are gonna be the way you like them.

No offence.

 

Its called an opinion and I am allowed to like certain aspects of the series and dislike others. 

Well for the most part Ice and Fire is that series. Far more so than Wheel of Time, Light and Shadow or Stormlight.  I mean none of those series have what I'd call a Daenerys equivalent; at all.

You have the Game of Thrones, this cast of characters and in particular Danys arc. However the series ultimate direction is likely to push those things to one side and bring the weaker elements of the story to the forefront. As a political and character driven story Ice and Fire is great. As a world with a developed magic system and fantasy antagonist it isn't. That when compared to Wheel of Time the series falls short. Which hasn't mattered because that has always been a trivial part of the narrative. When it becomes the focus, that's when the story stops being the one I like.

Why should I like or care about this zombie invasion that's going to come like an obnoxious fart into a good storyline?

 

[kissdbyfire]

@Tyrion1991, but as you say yourself, that's just your opinion. Right? I tried reading WoT a few times, and never managed to get past the first third of the first book. It bored me to tears!

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Its called an opinion and I am allowed to like certain aspects of the series and dislike others. 

True. But the author started the story with his ideas of the north and Bran and the direwolves first. This northern arc is the key element to keeping Westeros alive as much as possible. Sure, others story arcs are cool, but they won't exist if all is wiped out. To preserve one you must save another.

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Well for the most part Ice and Fire is that series. Far more so than Wheel of Time, Light and Shadow or Stormlight.  I mean none of those series have what I'd call a Daenerys equivalent; at all.

You have the Game of Thrones, this cast of characters and in particular Danys arc. However the series ultimate direction is likely to push those things to one side and bring the weaker elements of the story to the forefront. As a political and character driven story Ice and Fire is great. As a world with a developed magic system and fantasy antagonist it isn't. That when compared to Wheel of Time the series falls short. Which hasn't mattered because that has always been a trivial part of the narrative. When it becomes the focus, that's when the story stops being the one I like.

This is more of a story between that ol'human heart thing. Politics is just a carrier to show the pain of people.

And WoT also bored me to death. I tried... I did... and it sits on my shelf now where I may peek at it again in the future (maybe).

1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why should I like or care about this zombie invasion that's going to come like an obnoxious fart into a good storyline?

 

Because you should care about the living people in the story. The smallfolk and their dogs count.

[Tyrion1991]

47 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Tyrion1991, but as you say yourself, that's just your opinion. Right? I tried reading WoT a few times, and never managed to get past the first third of the first book. It bored me to tears!

 

 

I didn't say that WoT was better than Ice and Fire. Its the best fantasy series I have ever read. But I don't like it because I enjoy "some ranger from the North" or boy mage brooding about zombies invading the world whilst being bombarded with cryptic and contradictory information about the nature of this threat. Or a magic system that is bizarre and isn't explained. I like it because of Dany and the Game of Thrones. 

 

If you tried to sell me the story based on the zombie arc and some of the magic I would never have picked up the series. I got interested in the series because of Dany and these things have thankfully nothing to do with Danys arc; its all about the two least interesting Stark characters. Did you really get interested in the series because you heard how interesting and novel the zombies were? 

 

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

True. But the author started the story with his ideas of the north and Bran and the direwolves first. This northern arc is the key element to keeping Westeros alive as much as possible. Sure, others story arcs are cool, but they won't exist if all is wiped out. To preserve one you must save another.

This is more of a story between that ol'human heart thing. Politics is just a carrier to show the pain of people.

And WoT also bored me to death. I tried... I did... and it sits on my shelf now where I may peek at it again in the future (maybe).

Because you should care about the living people in the story. The smallfolk and their dogs count.

Damn straight, puppy power!

 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I didn't say that WoT was better than Ice and Fire. Its the best fantasy series I have ever read. But I don't like it because I enjoy "some ranger from the North" or boy mage brooding about zombies invading the world whilst being bombarded with cryptic and contradictory information about the nature of this threat. Or a magic system that is bizarre and isn't explained. I like it because of Dany and the Game of Thrones. 

 

If you tried to sell me the story based on the zombie arc and some of the magic I would never have picked up the series. I got interested in the series because of Dany and these things have thankfully nothing to do with Danys arc; its all about the two least interesting Stark characters. Did you really get interested in the series because you heard how interesting and novel the zombies were? 

 

To each their own, right?

No, I just picked AGoT out of a shelf in a bookstore a million yrs ago and thought I might like it.

 

[Tyrion1991]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

True. But the author started the story with his ideas of the north and Bran and the direwolves first. This northern arc is the key element to keeping Westeros alive as much as possible. Sure, others story arcs are cool, but they won't exist if all is wiped out. To preserve one you must save another.

This is more of a story between that ol'human heart thing. Politics is just a carrier to show the pain of people.

And WoT also bored me to death. I tried... I did... and it sits on my shelf now where I may peek at it again in the future (maybe).

Because you should care about the living people in the story. The smallfolk and their dogs count.

 

The opening sequence almost made me stop watching show until we get back to Winterfell. I thought it was that trite and unoriginal. 

The Direwolves and dragons have nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse. At no point has it ever been conclusively said that a character was gifted these creatures by some ethereal force to help them fight the Others. They are depicted as fluke random accidents and even books later are never explained in these terms. I have been in enough arguments over if Dany is or isn't AA to know that this is really ambivalent in the text. A lot of people are convinced that Jon is AA and that Danys arc is irrelevant to the War for the Dawn.

I wouldn't conflate the zombie apocalypse with the "Northern Arc". That involves parts of the Game of Thrones. It involves the Wildlings. Stannis and Melisandre. Do you count stuff like Sam going to Oldtown. Arya going to Braavos. To me those things have nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse. 

Which is enriched immeasurably by introducing a deeply morally ambiguous story about Machiavellian medieval politics and the tragedy of war and power. Its a very complex and well woven story in of itself, even if you don't take a moralist reading of the text. Why else can people debate endlessly on how Stannis could have won the Blackwater if he had done x, y and z. You don't ever hear anywhere near as much discussion about the Battle at the Fist. They're zombies, they have more bodies, they win; next page. Zombies Apocalypse is nowhere near as interesting. 

I also care about them not accidentally falling down a well. That doesn't make a story about them falling down that well interesting. 

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

True. But the author started the story with his ideas of the north and Bran and the direwolves first. This northern arc is the key element to keeping Westeros alive as much as possible. Sure, others story arcs are cool, but they won't exist if all is wiped out. To preserve one you must save another.

This is more of a story between that ol'human heart thing. Politics is just a carrier to show the pain of people.

And WoT also bored me to death. I tried... I did... and it sits on my shelf now where I may peek at it again in the future (maybe).

Because you should care about the living people in the story. The smallfolk and their dogs count.

LOL!  I tried to read WoT also and put it away after the third book.  But I'm also not a fan of zombies in general and I've never watched WWZ or the Walking Dead, any of those shows.  They're too halloweeny for me.  I think I'm past my fascination with horror and Stephen King.

Although there are things that are pretty horrific in aSoIaF.  Robert Strong is one of them.  Because as you know, I think Qyburn attached Robert Baratheon's head to Gregor Clegane's body.   I came across a post the other day, where it was suggested that AA would be reborn into Robert Strong's body and I thought that was hilarious.  But then I thought about it and started screaming.   

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

The opening sequence almost made me stop watching show until we get back to Winterfell. I thought it was that trite and unoriginal. 

Hmmm, then try the books instead.

And you know, abomination show talk is not well received in the book forums because the show has nothing to do with the canon form of storytelling.

5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The Direwolves and dragons have nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse. At no point has it ever been conclusively said that a character was gifted these creatures by some ethereal force to help them fight the Others. They are depicted as fluke random accidents and even books later are never explained in these terms. I have been in enough arguments over if Dany is or isn't AA to know that this is really ambivalent in the text. A lot of people are convinced that Jon is AA and that Danys arc is irrelevant to the War for the Dawn.

The old gods sent the wolves. A warg needs his/her wolf to start and learn and recognize their talent. This was not a fluke that all current Stark kids are wargs again at this precise moment in the in-world events and icy war that is about to happen. The Starks are the first line of defense, and this does include Bran and Jon, and hopefully RIckon, and maybe Sansa and Arya (depending on their location when it all happens on page).

The dragons are in the story for another reason.

5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I wouldn't conflate the zombie apocalypse with the "Northern Arc". That involves parts of the Game of Thrones. It involves the Wildlings. Stannis and Melisandre. Do you count stuff like Sam going to Oldtown. Arya going to Braavos. To me those things have nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse. 

I'm not. But the north is historically the first line of defense and warning to the rest of Westeros. That now includes the free folk because Jon is integrating them in to the northern society as best as he can. Jon is remembering the true purpose of the NW, and that is to save the realms of men. Sam going to Oldtown will probably be split between what he can learn there and pass back on to the north (via raven, him traveling back, etc), but Sam is also in Oldtown to give us eyes and ears there as either Euron or Daenerys invades. He is Sam the Slayer now, and good with a bow, which means battle scenes in upcoming books... and it will be awesome.

And Mel is doing her own thing in the books. She is looking out for her own interests and safety first. She has little to do with the actual north.

5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Which is enriched immeasurably by introducing a deeply morally ambiguous story about Machiavellian medieval politics and the tragedy of war and power. Its a very complex and well woven story in of itself, even if you don't take a moralist reading of the text. Why else can people debate endlessly on how Stannis could have won the Blackwater if he had done x, y and z.

 But those debates, as amusing as they are, mean zilch because the author makes certain people die, and stay alive, for future reasons in the book. So we can debate what someone could have done in a battle to have lived longer, but it doesn't matter because that character would have to just die again, and soon, another way so that the story keeps going as planned.

5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

You don't ever hear anywhere near as much discussion about the Battle at the Fist. They're zombies, they have more bodies, they win; next page. Zombies Apocalypse is nowhere near as interesting. 

The wights are most likely goons controlled by something stronger. It is that something stronger that should concern the readers.

5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I also care about them not accidentally falling down a well. That doesn't make a story about them falling down that well interesting. 

Cool. Ok.

[Tyrion1991]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hmmm, then try the books instead.

And you know, abomination show talk is not well received in the book forums because the show has nothing to do with the canon form of storytelling.

The old gods sent the wolves. A warg needs his/her wolf to start and learn and recognize their talent. This was not a fluke that all current Stark kids are wargs again at this precise moment in the in-world events and icy war that is about to happen. The Starks are the first line of defense, and this does include Bran and Jon, and hopefully RIckon, and maybe Sansa and Arya (depending on their location when it all happens on page).

The dragons are in the story for another reason.

I'm not. But the north is historically the first line of defense and warning to the rest of Westeros. That now includes the free folk because Jon is integrating them in to the northern society as best as he can. Jon is remembering the true purpose of the NW, and that is to save the realms of men. Sam going to Oldtown will probably be split between what he can learn there and pass back on to the north (via raven, him traveling back, etc), but Sam is also in Oldtown to give us eyes and ears there as either Euron or Daenerys invades. He is Sam the Slayer now, and good with a bow, which means battle scenes in upcoming books... and it will be awesome.

And Mel is doing her own thing in the books. She is looking out for her own interests and safety first. She has little to do with the actual north.

 But those debates, as amusing as they are, mean zilch because the author makes certain people die, and stay alive, for future reasons in the book. So we can debate what someone could have done in a battle to have lived longer, but it doesn't matter because that character would have to just die again, and soon, another way so that the story keeps going as planned.

The wights are most likely goons controlled by something stronger. It is that something stronger that should concern the readers.

Cool. Ok.

 

Read them all many times over because of the politics and Dany. Only on my re-reads I skip a lot of Arya, Bran and Jon stuff.

That is an inference. I could easily infer that Dany is the chosen one because she miraculously woke three dragons when an undead army is coming to kill everyone. But that is a theory, not a fact. There are a lot of people who would very adamantly insist there are no Gods or conscious force in the series. It could as easily mean that these characters are important POV because they happen to find and do these things. What you are really saying is "I have this theory that the Old Gods gave the Starks their wolves". The text doesn't explicitly support this.

Zombies are boring and so are battles involving them. You can do a lot more with the likes of Orcs and Demons. 

Some would say that they are the highlight of the series and what makes it stand out from other fantasy novels. Yes the plot requires Stannis to lose at KL. But, whats important is that GRRM makes the conflict seem believable and real. You didn't get that nuance and depth or believability at the Fist of the First Men. What you got was a very by the numbers undead battle no more interesting than those in Warhammer. Only there they have Vampires and stuff to add character to the villains. Plus they don't just use zombies. You have ghosts, skeletons, spirits, lesser vampires, dire bats and other nastiness. Zombies and the occasional iceman is hardly a lot of variety.

"Something stronger" is very vague. I can't say that I like something I have never read about. I can be sceptical though since it deviates from what we have right now and the tasters leave me feeling cold.

I am being glib there. But its true. Its not just enough that I care about the zombies killing the characters. Dany getting back to Westeros to reclaim the crown is a lot more interesting a story than "Oh no zombies. We gotta stop them. Dracarys.". 

[The Fattest Leech]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  I tried to read WoT also and put it away after the third book.  But I'm also not a fan of zombies in general and I've never watched WWZ or the Walking Dead, any of those shows.  They're too halloweeny for me.  I think I'm past my fascination with horror and Stephen King.

Yeah, I take the wights as the disposable goons. They seem to be sent in as the vanguard to die as they kill and weed out the "regular" humans in order to leave the special snowflake that they seem to be looking for... and why? I am sure we all have our own pet theories for this, but it is the fact that the wights aren't the real threat, but what controls them.

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Although there are things that are pretty horrific in aSoIaF.  Robert Strong is one of them.  Because as you know, I think Qyburn attached Robert Baratheon's head to Gregor Clegane's body.   I came across a post the other day, where it was suggested that AA would be reborn into Robert Strong's body and I thought that was hilarious.  But then I thought about it and started screaming.   

I think the zombie-wight thing is played up more in the book fan minds than it may be in reality by the story end. Just my thought

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, I take the wights as the disposable goons. They seem to be sent in as the vanguard to die as they kill and weed out the "regular" humans in order to leave the special snowflake that they seem to be looking for... and why?

So the wildlings join forces and skedaddle south of the wall?  How many wights are there since the wildling burns their dead?  Were Craster's boys sent to acquire a man of the watch for the purpose of taking a direwolf through the Black Gate?      

[Damon_Tor]

On 9/18/2017 at 0:57 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Just generally, I really do not like zombies or undead in High Fantasy. They're automata.

Would it help to learn that the wights are telepathic proxies for the Others? "Drones" rather than "robots", more similar to how it works in GRRM's "Corpse Handler" novels?

[falcotron]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Although there are things that are pretty horrific in aSoIaF. 

Actually, that's a major thing I like about ASoIaF. But Lovecraft or Howard wouldn't have thrown a B-movie horror villain into their tales of eldritch torture magic and half-glimpsed things from beyond the world. Other modern writers like Charles Stross or Paul Cornell might, but only with an air of parody or OTT showiness; GRRM treats Qyburn and Robert Strong exactly the same way he treats the Undying and the Others, and makes it work.

But I can also see the OP's point. It's not a coincidence that the word "grimdark" was originally coined as a joke on Warhammer 40K's tagline, because Warhammer achieves the same thing from the opposite direction: it starts off over the top, so you can throw in anything and it works.

The difference is that in ASoIaF-style grimdark, zombies are a great idea, while in W40K-style grimdark they're pointless.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I came across a post the other day, where it was suggested that AA would be reborn into Robert Strong's body and I thought that was hilarious.  But then I thought about it and started screaming.   

I think that was me? After Aegon eats one of Dany's dragons to turn into living wildfire, Robert Strong will pick him up and use him as Lightbringer to defeat the Others?

But yeah, the fact that Robert Strong is a cheesy Hammer Frankenstein monster and still manages to be legitimately creepy means you can imagine almost anything with him and it makes him scarier instead of silly.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I think that was me? After Aegon eats one of Dany's dragons to turn into living wildfire, Robert Strong will pick him up and use him as Lightbringer to defeat the Others?

But yeah, the fact that Robert Strong is a cheesy Hammer Frankenstein monster and still manages to be legitimately creepy means you can imagine almost anything with him and it makes him scarier instead of silly.

Was that you?  I do sample your posts for your clarity and precision in writing.  Also your knowledge of history and literature which I find loaded with fascinating information and analysis.  Yes I did laugh and scream at the same time over that comment.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Its called an opinion and I am allowed to like certain aspects of the series and dislike others. 

Well for the most part Ice and Fire is that series. Far more so than Wheel of Time, Light and Shadow or Stormlight.  I mean none of those series have what I'd call a Daenerys equivalent; at all.

You have the Game of Thrones, this cast of characters and in particular Danys arc. However the series ultimate direction is likely to push those things to one side and bring the weaker elements of the story to the forefront. As a political and character driven story Ice and Fire is great. As a world with a developed magic system and fantasy antagonist it isn't. That when compared to Wheel of Time the series falls short. Which hasn't mattered because that has always been a trivial part of the narrative. When it becomes the focus, that's when the story stops being the one I like.

Why should I like or care about this zombie invasion that's going to come like an obnoxious fart into a good storyline?

 

Weaker how? Opinions are fine, but if someone says something is weak when what they really mean is that they wouldn't like it, then that's a communication issue, not a problem with the series. If you can explain what makes it weak, that would be helpful. Otherwise it reminds me of people saying "X won't happen because that would be bad writing" when really it had nothing to do with the quality of the writing and they just didn't want to see "X" happen.

Your statement rather suggests that you don't trust the author to deliver on that element of the story, and I'm wondering why that is. He's the same man who came up with all the things you like in the series. What it's building toward is all of the various elements and subplots meeting in a climax to the story that is epic and breathtaking (though definitely not in a warm fuzzy kind of way).

[The Fattest Leech]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

So the wildlings join forces and skedaddle south of the wall? 

Yes. 

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

How many wights are there since the wildling burns their dead? 

How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? ()

I have no idea and/or cannot remember how many are estimated to still be in the big deep snowy sea, but about 4,000 have already come though the wall in two waves, and I think another 6,000 still at Harhome. I imagine there is more that I just don't remember. (Numb3rs aren't my thing) 

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

Were Craster's boys sent to acquire a man of the watch for the purpose of taking a direwolf through the Black Gate?      

I have read bits of a theory or comments that discussed this idea, but alas, I can't recall it off the top of my head at the moment to be able to answer. However, links to an essay or thread are helpful. 

5 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Would it help to learn that the wights are telepathic proxies for the Others? "Drones" rather than "robots", more similar to how it works in GRRM's "Corpse Handler" novels?

Exactly! The corpse handler series gives some great insight into his. Including or especially Override. I am thinking we may see an override take place in the upcoming novels. Bran would be the one for this, if I were to guess. 

[Wild Bill]

On 9/18/2017 at 3:57 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

But specifically, I really want to see Dany play the Game of Thrones. That, for me, is the thing I want to read about and watch unfold. I have absolutely zero interest in dragons versus zombies. Its a complete waste of a story arc and I have no investment in seeing Dany do that. Her arc has had nothing, aside from a few cryptic and bizarre visions and vague insinuations she is Azor Ahai, to do with the zombies. So I really don't like the notion that most of Dany's Westeros arc will revolve around the War against the Others. I have invested in watching her try to retake the throne. I do not care about zombie apocalypse and have been given no incentive to care about zombie apocalypse. 

So why does GRRM want his finale to involve a zombie apocalypse like World War Z?

It is interesting that we have all the players in Westeros doing their, down and dirty, maneuvering while we have Dany in Essos doing her messianic thing. And, of course, whatever the threat from the north is...

That is the story. GRRM will finish it however he sees fit. I suspect there will not be a zombie apocalypse, to your relief (or at least somewhat). You seem to reject the structural notions of the story - Dany is a continent away and an exile, with little support. How can she possibly play the Game of Thrones, other than through her role as a distant exile?

OK, vis the "game", time goes by and another book comes out, and Dany invades Westeros. There is no "playing", there is no subtle maneuvering between Cercei, LF, Varys, the Tyrells, the Martel's, the Starks/Baratheons/Boltons/Snows (whoever controls the north) and Dany. Not to mention Dany's, apparent, nephew, fAegon. True, there may be some opportunity for Dany to do some political maneuvering, though I doubt it's significance since her dragons + political maneuvering = capitulation or death - (that's her negotiation position - what does someone on the otherside of the negotiation offer?)

I'll give an analogy of WWII - is it of the story of a battle of civilizations or of Gandhi looking to overthrow the colonial yoke in India? Not to be flippant (and I enjoyed your use of "glib":)), I think of ASOIAF being like WWII, and... you are talking about Gandhi (solely India). A bad analogy, but still, even if there was to be a zombie apocalypse - it was preordained from the earliest chapters of the first book! - what did you expect?

edit: apologies to Gandhi - not in relation to OP, but to use a super-serious topic in regards to a trivial matter...