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Why didn't Cersei or Robert take Dragonstone away from Stannis?


Canon Claude

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Given that Lordship of Dragonstone is given to the heir of the Seven Kingdoms, why wasn't it ever given to Joffrey?

I know there are some arguments for why not, so if I may...

1) Joffrey's too young

But he could still have the title and leave Stannis as a castellan.

2) Stannis would rebel

No. No he wouldn't. He would gnash his teeth and grumble even harder than before.

3) Robert wouldn't disinherit Stannis like that

Sure he would. He did it once before so why not again? Whether through ignorance or malice, Robert regularly craps all over Stannis. Demoting him down to castellan or even removing him from the castle would be in keeping with Robert's carelessness or his dislike of Stannis, whichever you prefer.

And even if Robert likes Stannis too much, Cersei doesn't. She didn't even want Jon Arryn's son on Dragonstone. She hates and fears Stannis, so it would be in character for her to try and use her influence to demote and undercut him as much as possible. What better way than to leave him without a proper lordship and have him rule Dragonstone only in Joffrey's name?

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Admittedly this is a bit of a stretch, but another possibility is that someone was strongly advising him not to do that.

Varys is the obvious candidate. Getting Robert to break as many Targaryen traditions as possible keeps it clear in everyone's head that Robert's reign is not a continuation of the Targaryen dynasty, making a future restoration (or Blackfyre usurpation, or whatever his end goal is) easier to sell. And if he wanted to convince Robert, he'd have no problem coming up with rumors that make it sound like a good idea to keep Stannis in charge.

Littlefinger has similar means and opportunity. As for motive, the fact that the situation is inherently unstable (for exactly the reasons you give is a positive)—at some point, he may find a way to use that instability to his advantage.

There's also Jon Arryn. It could even not be a plot, just sincere belief that leaving Stannis in Dragonstone, and slightly less unhappy as Master of Ships, is better for the realm. But he may have already grown suspicious of Joffrey's parentage and wanted to keep Stannis in position in case his fears turned out to be true. Or just grown suspicious of Cersei in general and want to thwart her machinations, seeing Stannis as one of his best allies against her. And whichever it is, he could sell the idea as just "Look, Robert, do you really want to get involved in managing all the lordships, or do you want me to do the job you hired me for so you can focus on keeping the people happy, which you're great at?"

Again, I realize this isn't that strong of an explanation, but I think it may be better than the three you brought up and dismissed.

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After that whole long reply, I think I actually have a better answer.

The Lord of Dragonstone dynastic title is clearly based on the Prince of Wales.

The Prince of Wales—like many other dynastic titles—is not taken away if that heir is superseded, and, in fact, there is no procedure at all for taking it away. Once granted, it's yours until you become king or die.

This is why English kings who aren't sure of their succession don't invest their heir presumptive as Prince of Wales.* And the treaty** to make Richard of York the heir to Henry VI over Henry's own son explicitly included Richard being invested as Prince of Wales because that could not be taken away if the succession were changed again.

So, if things work the same way, removing Stannis would be… well, not really illegal, because Westeros isn't remotely a constitutional monarchy, but the kind of break with precedent that the nobles might find outrageous.

---

* For example, when Henry ViI's son Prince Arthur died, his next son Prince Henry didn't become Prince of Wales they'd waited long enough to be absolutely sure Arthur's widow was not pregnant.

** Ratified by the Act of Accord 1480, an attempt to peacefully settle the War of the Roses in basically the same way the Anarchy had been settled.

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18 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

As King, Joff would already technically be Lord of Dragonstone. In the meanwhile, Dragonstone seems to be considered by the elite to be a dark and damp place for outcasts. Why would the royal family want it? 

First, he's asking about while Robert was alive, so Joffrey wasn't King.

Second, the King is not technically the Lord of Dragonstone. Once you grant a fief, it's not yours anymore. (Of course there are often ways to ungrant it… but until you do, it's not yours.)

Third, Dragonstone is not a place for outcasts. It may no longer be the place where dragons are bred and stored, but it's still an important symbol, and the fief every heir is granted since the conquest, and strategically important as the gateway to the Blackwater. Stannis clearly considers pragmatics to be far more important than symbols, but Robert obviously doesn't (GRRM has confirmed that, if it's not clear enough in the novels), and I think most of the elite are on Robert's side.

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30 minutes ago, falcotron said:

First, he's asking about while Robert was alive, so Joffrey wasn't King.

Second, the King is not technically the Lord of Dragonstone. Once you grant a fief, it's not yours anymore. (Of course there are often ways to ungrant it… but until you do, it's not yours.)

Third, Dragonstone is not a place for outcasts. It may no longer be the place where dragons are bred and stored, but it's still an important symbol, and the fief every heir is granted since the conquest, and strategically important as the gateway to the Blackwater. Stannis clearly considers pragmatics to be far more important than symbols, but Robert obviously doesn't (GRRM has confirmed that, if it's not clear enough in the novels), and I think most of the elite are on Robert's side.

If I were to imagine what logically could have happened, is that Robert straight up asked Joffery(With Cersei present)whether they wanted Dragonstone and they both acted put off by the whole ordeal, citing the reasons I gave above. Why inherit someplace stained by the legacy of the Targs and so out of favor with the ruling elite. I mean, it belongs to lowly, dutiful Stannis.

It's not a situation Robert needs to worry about, because AS king, Joffery could come to inherit it if he so pleased.

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3 hours ago, Fredwin said:

Why inherit someplace stained by the legacy of the Targs and so out of favor with the ruling elite. I mean, it belongs to lowly, dutiful Stannis.

Where do you get the idea that it's out of favor with the ruling elite? As GRRM says (and has said other times in similar words):

Quote

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

It's only out of favor with Stannis, because Stannis doesn't give a damn about symbols of power and status. Which Robert doesn't realize because he never bothers to ask Stannis—he just assumes Stannis will see it as the great honor that he intended.

It's like when you're GMing a role-playing game, and you set up a great heroic reward, but one of your players is a min-maxing munchkin and he's annoyed because a plain old +3 sword would let him do more damage per turn than the unique and storied weapon you gave him.

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I honestly believe Robert intended to honour Stannis with Dragonstone since it was the seat of the IT heir which at the time Stannis was ..... Also he wanted a very competent man as lord of the last true Targaryan stronghold and to keep the Targ loyalists in line which Stannis did very well. So as to the OP question I believe when Robert gave him DS he did so in perpetuity since Robert wasnt trying to have a Targ dynasty or anything like it for that matter. 

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There's nothing to say that Robert might not have done this, at some point in the future, if he took the notion (or if Cersei did, or Joffrey did). But as at the time of the books, it makes a great deal of sense. Robert still needs someone at Dragonstone with a firm hand and unquestionable loyalty. His throne is not yet secure, and DS is symbolically important to any Targaryen loyalists. It would be a centre and a target for them in any rebellion. Giving it to an adolescent boy would be folly.

Asking Stannis to mind it for Joff would be a risk. Stannis' loyalty is not unbreakable: even if it was, other noble lords would see such a snub and wonder if the King will do this to his brother, what he might do to them. That provides fuel for rebellion, too.

So: the short answer is, security.

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Why on earth would Cersei want to send her son to manage some barren island who happens to be a Targ Loyalist stronghold? Considering his arrogance and his ineptness then rest assured that the dragonislanders would have him killed by the end of the month.  So the answer to OP’s question is….she loved her son

What I do find fascinating is why she didn’t push Robert to incorporate the crownlands with the Stormlands. As a Baratheon king, Robert had the rightful claim over both and so would Joffrey once Robert dies. Such scenario would have kept Stannis happy as he would end up better off to Renly, it would have provided the crownlands with a decent army and it would have provided the stormlands with a decent economy. 
 

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