Ser Loras The Gay

Why no one adress the fact that Jon isn't the LC anymore?

43 posts in this topic

So, since season 6 I don't remember anyone out of the wall asking why the former LC of the Night's watch was doing out of the wall. Legally he's still a Night watch member and as far as I remember deserted member get their heads off.

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Random passersby don't cut their heads off, and they don't fall off automatically. They get beheaded after being sentenced by the Lord of Winterfell or, presumably, the King. I doubt the King in the North is going to sentence himself to death. And I doubt Cersei considers deserting the Watch to be a more serious crime than treasonously seceding from the Seven Kingdoms and allying with a foreign invader.

More seriously, and more importantly: the oath may say that only death can nd his watch, but modern wedding vows say the same thing. Stannis twice offered to release Jon from the Watch, and Stannis, Davos, Jon, Sam, and… Edd? (I forget who else he talked to about it) all seemed to think it was perfectly possible and perfectly legal. So obviously Jon, as King in the North, can do the exact same thing. If it wasn't already done automatically by the lords electing him King in the first place.

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It i´ll probably be explained in the books somehow. It has been certainly made clear that leaving the watch is possible under certain circumstances. 

I´m not surprised at all that the show has not bothered to explain it since they seem to pay very little attention to any logic anyway

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34 minutes ago, falcotron said:

More seriously, and more importantly: the oath may say that only death can nd his watch,

they also vow for all nights to come 

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1 minute ago, SirArthur said:

they also vow for all nights to come 

Yes:

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

And it ends when you die. Jon died in S5E10. 

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3 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

they also vow for all nights to come 

So what? How does that change the fact that a king can obviously release them from their oath?

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By the way, I actually was a bit surprised that Cersei didn't make some snarky comment like "King in the North, well well, and didn't you vow to wear no crowns? What would dear old Ned say about your desertion? What's the previous part of the vow again? Did you father some bastards first, or are you saving that for later?"

But not because she'd be trying to make a legal point or anything, just to get a rise out of him.

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25 minutes ago, falcotron said:

So what? How does that change the fact that a king can obviously release them from their oath?

obviously ? How so ? "Obviously" sounds like modern day newspapers: "We don't know and have no witness but others are reporting it this way, so it has to be true. "

I would actually argue against that, because in the books Cersei tries to kill Jon because he is Lord Commander. And this makes little sense if she can just end his vow and therefore release him from command. 

Edited by SirArthur

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5 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

And it ends when you die. Jon died in S5E10. 

I agree. And Jon gave this reason himself, saying he died for it. I don't have a problem with this issue. 

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6 hours ago, Mahtimuussi said:

It i´ll probably be explained in the books somehow. It has been certainly made clear that leaving the watch is possible under certain circumstances. 

I´m not surprised at all that the show has not bothered to explain it since they seem to pay very little attention to any logic anyway

Yup, this.  They leave way too many loose ends in the writing.

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My problem it's not that it could be imply, but NO ONE never talks about his desertion. He's king now he could simply state after something to someone who asked him "I released myself from my vows". Because as far as we know as viewers just some people at the wall saw jon dying and fewer saw him reviving. And the fact that he tries to keep that secret for himself is even more of a reason to raise some eyebrows.

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12 hours ago, SirArthur said:

obviously ? How so ?

Because, as I already said, Stannis offered to do it, and not a single person who heard about that offer even considered for a second that there might be anything impossible or illegal about it. And we're not talking about people like Walder Frey here, it's people like Stannis, Jon, and Sam.

So, the obvious conclusion is that it actually is legal. The only way around it is if you think that you know more about Westerosi law than Stannis, Jon, and Sam, or you think that they're the kind of people who care a lot less about the law than most people in Westeros. Does either one of those seem likely?

And meanwhile, let's get back to your first reply. I said that if Stannis can void the oath even though it says "It shall not end until my death", then so can Jon. Your reply was "they also vow for all nights to come". How does that in any way change whether or not Stannis can void the oath, or whether the same would apply for a King in the North as for a King of the Seven Kingdoms?

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16 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I doubt the NW considered the resurrection loophole when they formulated the wording of the oath.

Actually, they might have. Remember, the Watch was founded specifically to fight an army of wighted dead, by a last hero who'd just gone on a quest to learn secret knowledge from the Children, and who may have been assisted by, or even have been, a foreign warrior with a sword made of living fire. And their current oath seems to have been written after the defeat of Night's King, who was married to a "corpse bride" and seems to have been trying some kind of necromancy of his own. So, resurrection may not have been too far from their minds.

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14 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Actually, they might have. Remember, the Watch was founded specifically to fight an army of wighted dead, by a last hero who'd just gone on a quest to learn secret knowledge from the Children, and who may have been assisted by, or even have been, a foreign warrior with a sword made of living fire. And their current oath seems to have been written after the defeat of Night's King, who was married to a "corpse bride" and seems to have been trying some kind of necromancy of his own. So, resurrection may not have been too far from their minds.

Lost to time. You have veterans of the NW like Thorne who seem to think the wall was built to keep out wildlings.

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32 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Lost to time. You have veterans of the NW like Thorne who seem to think the wall was built to keep out wildlings.

Sure, but it wasn't lost to time when the oath was formulated. I doubt anyone in the time of the 14th LC thought the Wall was built to keep out wildlings.

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7 hours ago, falcotron said:

Because, as I already said, Stannis offered to do it, and not a single person who heard about that offer even considered for a second that there might be anything impossible or illegal about it. And we're not talking about people like Walder Frey here, it's people like Stannis, Jon, and Sam.

So, the obvious conclusion is that it actually is legal.

The conclusion is that nobody cares about vows made in front of the seven or the old gods and that Stannis is a follower of R'hllor and wouldn't care himself. And given that Jon is the only follower of the old gods we know of that said his vows in front of the 9 trees ....

But yes, Sam is the weird one here. 

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29 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The conclusion is that nobody cares about vows made in front of the seven or the old gods and that Stannis is a follower of R'hllor and wouldn't care himself. And given that Jon is the only follower of the old gods we know of that said his vows in front of the 9 trees ....

Wait, if Jon, who believes in the Old Gods and said his vows in front of the 9 trees, wouldn't care, then why would anyone in Westeros care?

Or are you suggesting that, even if none of the people care, the Old Gods themselves would? But that still wouldn't make any difference to this question, because the Old Gods don't address people.

34 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

But yes, Sam is the weird one here. 

How? Because Jon follows the Old Gods, Davos is about as devout a Seven worshipper as we've seen without a Manson-style pentacle carved in his forehead, and Stannis follows R'hllor, but Sam doesn't represent another religion, he's just a less devout Seven follower?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but if the idea is that the vows have been dismissed by every religious tradition in Westeros and that's going to cause a problem, or something like that, you could use Sam as a representative of the Maesters' atheism or something? (It seems like a stretch—and besides, we need Vargo Hoat to show up and visibly not care, to represent the most important religion, the Black Goat.)

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24 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Wait, if Jon, who believes in the Old Gods and said his vows in front of the 9 trees, wouldn't care, then why would anyone in Westeros care?

Is this because i wrote nobody cares or is this specific shown in the show ?

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