Ser Loras The Gay

Why no one adress the fact that Jon isn't the LC anymore?

43 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Is this because i wrote nobody cares or is this specific shown in the show ?

I'm completely lost about your point now.

The thread is about why nobody says anything about Jon no longer being LC.

The subthread that you replied to was about the fact that a king can obviously release a Watchman from his vows.

Your reply was:

Quote

The conclusion is that nobody cares about vows made in front of the seven or the old gods and that Stannis is a follower of R'hllor and wouldn't care himself. And given that Jon is the only follower of the old gods we know of that said his vows in front of the 9 trees ....

But yes, Sam is the weird one here. 

I don't know how that applies to either the main discussion or the discussion of a king being able to release him. I made a guess, but obviously I guessed wrong and only confused you. Apologies for that. Can you try to explain your point in a different way?

Thanks.

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Well, these are special times, the number of members of the Night Watch is diminished, the epic battle ahead, there are other problems than worrying about Jons vow. Jon is king now and probably people are pragmatic enough to realise that a king is not active member of the Night Watch anymore. 

Samwell Tarly lived at the Citadel together with a woman and broka all his vows. No discussion about that either, and he is formally still member of the Night Watch and only sent to the Citadel to become the next Night Watch maester. So why he openly lives with a woman, escapes from the Citadel and is well accepted at Winterfell, is questionable, too. As I said, these are special times. The epic battle ahead. Other problems more imminent.

Some people take their vow very seriously, other less so. Kings can release people from their vows easily, as can those who received the vow. 

Don't worry too much. Vows are a strange concept anyway.

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On 19/09/2017 at 10:25 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

So, since season 6 I don't remember anyone out of the wall asking why the former LC of the Night's watch was doing out of the wall. Legally he's still a Night watch member and as far as I remember deserted member get their heads off.

Yes! I've been waiting for it in every episode.

I have no problem with Jon leaving the NW. This organization has lost its mission. Is only hindering the defense against the Others. Is one of the worst slavers organization. Jon is better fulfilling his purpose out of it. But how can Tyrion or any other southern folk would not ask: How is it that a brother of the NW is now KitN? Then Jon would have to explain: "Oaths mean nothing if they are not serving the right purpose", or "I served until my death", or "I wear no crown, I seek no glory, I'm still the watcher on the walls".

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes! I've been waiting for it in every episode.

I have no problem with Jon leaving the NW. This organization has lost its mission. Is only hindering the defense against the Others. Is one of the worst slavers organization. Jon is better fulfilling his purpose out of it. But how can Tyrion or any other southern folk would not ask: How is it that a brother of the NW is now KitN? Then Jon would have to explain: "Oaths mean nothing if they are not serving the right purpose", or "I served until my death", or "I wear no crown, I seek no glory, I'm still the watcher on the walls".

Tyrion did ask. Jon just didn't really answer.

"At some point I want to hear how a Knight's Watch recruit became King in the North." - Tyrion 7x03

Edited by jcmontea

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19 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

"At some point I want to hear how a Knight's Watch recruit became King in the North." - Tyrion 7x03

Yes. And he wille xplain it and it will be fine.

Why make things more complicated than they are? Jon leads the fight against the threat from the North. He does exactly what he vowed to do: Protect the people from the danger of the Long Night.

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

Tyrion did ask. Jon just didn't really answer.

"At some point I want to hear how a Knight's Watch recruit became King in the North." - Tyrion 7x03

Yes. I remember now, "At some point". It felt more idle curiosity than serious question. Tyrion joking about how he became Daenerys' Hand, "drunk most of the time". Just filling time and exchanging banter between 2 old friends. It sounded like "How did you finally escape the old cunts? You know, I felt sorry for you."

Varys too, is usually sharp in his questions.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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Jon's also still giving orders as far as the Watch is concerned.  He sent Tormund and the Wildlings to take over Eastwatch, even though there were still Night's Watch men there.  Tormund mentions the NW men during the scene where Jon, Jorah, and Gendry meet the Brotherhood men in the cell.  Tormund says "I guess we're the Night's Watch now" when Jon sends him from Winterfell to Eastwatch.

Edd might be Lord Commander, but Jon is King, and although the watch takes no part blah blah, when your Lord Commander becomes King, he's in charge.

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3 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

Jon's also still giving orders as far as the Watch is concerned.  He sent Tormund and the Wildlings to take over Eastwatch, even though there were still Night's Watch men there.  Tormund mentions the NW men during the scene where Jon, Jorah, and Gendry meet the Brotherhood men in the cell.  Tormund says "I guess we're the Night's Watch now" when Jon sends him from Winterfell to Eastwatch.

Edd might be Lord Commander, but Jon is King, and although the watch takes no part blah blah, when your Lord Commander becomes King, he's in charge.

Edd isn't even Lord Commander. Nobody calls him that, the viewer's guide lists him as "acting commander", and, when asked, D&D said they haven't had a new election yet.

But I think your interpretation actually works best: It's not that they don't have an LC yet, it's that Jon is still the LC. And it's not just the WIldlings who are part of the Watch now, it's the whole North. And maybe even the Vale. And soon Dany and her whole Essosi army.

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53 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But I think your interpretation actually works best: It's not that they don't have an LC yet, it's that Jon is still the LC. And it's not just the WIldlings who are part of the Watch now, it's the whole North. And maybe even the Vale. And soon Dany and her whole Essosi army.

Agreed, I like this interpretation: If you're part of the army defending the seven kingdoms agains the AotD, you are essentially a part of the NW.
They have the same goal in mind, just without the oaths.

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

Edd isn't even Lord Commander. Nobody calls him that, the viewer's guide lists him as "acting commander", and, when asked, D&D said they haven't had a new election yet.

But I think your interpretation actually works best: It's not that they don't have an LC yet, it's that Jon is still the LC. And it's not just the WIldlings who are part of the Watch now, it's the whole North. And maybe even the Vale. And soon Dany and her whole Essosi army.

I took a good bit of pleasure watching Royce get his revenge on Littlefinger during Baelish's trial.  "I think not."  I hope he gets to kill a Walker as revenge for Waymar. 

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8 hours ago, falcotron said:

And it's not just the WIldlings who are part of the Watch now, it's the whole North. And maybe even the Vale. And soon Dany and her whole Essosi army.

 

7 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

If you're part of the army defending the seven kingdoms agains the AotD, you are essentially a part of the NW.
They have the same goal in mind, just without the oaths.

Daenerys and her Dothrakis part of the NW is hilarious. But I totally agree, you don't need these fucking oaths to defend the 7K.

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1 minute ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Daenerys and her Dothrakis part of the NW is hilarious.

Edd, forget the block, bring me a bucket of molten gold.

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On 9/20/2017 at 7:36 AM, MinscS2 said:

Yes:

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

And it ends when you die. Jon died in S5E10. 

 THANK YOU! I've been arguing this point on YT with a specific user, and he just doesn't seem to get it.

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11 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 THANK YOU! I've been arguing this point on YT with a specific user, and he just doesn't seem to get it.

I agree. But some claim, as Jon is alive again, his oaths still apply.
I don't really care, so far as he does what is best.
Edd's comment about staying dead:

Once they figure a way to work a dead horse, we'll be next. Likely I'll be the first too. 'Edd,' they'll say, 'dying's no excuse for lying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got the watch tonight.'

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13 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 THANK YOU! I've been arguing this point on YT with a specific user, and he just doesn't seem to get it.

If one "shall" ( I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. ) can be ignored, so can another (It shall not end until my death.).

Meaning that the watch can end before the death (as we have discussed with the king releasing someone from the vow). But it also goes the other way round. The watch should have ended with the death but it didn't.

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

If one "shall" ( I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. ) can be ignored, so can another (It shall not end until my death.).

Meaning that the watch can end before the death (as we have discussed with the king releasing someone from the vow). But it also goes the other way round. The watch should have ended with the death but it didn't.

I don't see the kings fit for anything. Particularly releasing people for convenience from oaths made to the gods. OK, those ruled by this king will not name the man a deserter. But does he have the gods leave? If some believe differently, I don't care.
For Jon, I'd rather read the gods gave their leave by resurrecting him. But no, he is TPtwP and still "the shield that guards the realms of men".

BTW, "It shall not end until..." applies to all shalls. There is not one ended by death, and the others unspecified.

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19 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't see the kings fit for anything.

I don't think anyone's going to argue that non-constitutional divinely-justified hereditary monarchy is a good thing. But it is the system they have in Westeros. If the kings aren't fit to wield power, then there's nobody else to wield it except for whatever local strongmen can seize it (think Ramsay at the Hornwood estate). Is that really better?

Meanwhile, this oath was written by men (apparently to prevent another case like Night's King), and we've only seen it enforced by men. More generally, I don't think we've seen any evidence that the gods give a damn about oaths. We have heard stories about people being punished for breaking guest right, and for kinslaying, but not for oathbreaking. And really, even assuming the Old Gods (or the Seven) are real gods, how would anyone in-universe know what they care about?

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3 hours ago, falcotron said:

And really, even assuming the Old Gods (or the Seven) are real gods, how would anyone in-universe know what they care about?

You know ... communication is hard. 

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13 hours ago, falcotron said:

 If the kings aren't fit to wield power, then there's nobody else to wield it except for whatever local strongmen can seize it (think Ramsay at the Hornwood estate). Is that really better?

To be king would not improve Ramsey. It is the question of the right man to rule. But so far, Westeros has been poor at finding good kings.

13 hours ago, falcotron said:

Meanwhile, this oath was written by men (apparently to prevent another case like Night's King), and we've only seen it enforced by men. More generally, I don't think we've seen any evidence that the gods give a damn about oaths.

OK. So we can ignore these oaths.

BTW, the Black Gate in the Nightfort expects some part of the oaths. But not the limitations, not the "shall not end".
So maybe the Old Gods have something to do with it.

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Jon took an oath to serve the Watch until he died. And then he died.

Technically he fulfilled his oath :D

I mean it's playing lawyer with the wording but meh. It's as good as any other explanation.

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