Your favorite 'hateable' character

[DominusNovus]

2 hours ago, Chebyshov said:

Martin's not writing a historical documentary, so that'd be about as useful as nipples on a breastplate. Let's look at the patriarchal society in the books.

And to that point, it's pretty damn clear in the narrative that Cersei's societal value is her baby-making capabilities (like all other noble women), and if you're confused as to why having your personhood reduced down to being a shiny baseball card is oppressive (along with not having the right to consent, as @mankytoes already pointed out), then you likely don't understand the concept at all.

If Westerosi society is anything like our own medieval society (which it is reasonable to assume, when there is no evidence to the contrary), than you basically have to be a noble woman in order to have your job be “produce legitimate babies” first, foremost, and last. If westerosi smallfolk are anything like real medieval peasants, they generally had the ‘luxury’ to marry for love (or at least make the decision on their own, rather than have the whole matter arranged by the heads of their families).

I think that is an agreed upon point, since you’re also specifying noble women in your discussions. I just have no interest in entertaining the idea that a queen is oppressed while a peasant woman is not. They’re simply contrained in certain ways by the conditions inherent in a feudal society.

So, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this matter.

[Nihlus]

I do have to laugh a bit at the idea that Cersei being slapped by Robert is an example of her being oppressed. Literally anyone else in the entire world (except maybe Ned, the Baratheon bros, and Tywin) would have been executed on the spot if they acted like she did to the warrior king of a continent.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Nihlus said:

I do have to laugh a bit at the idea that Cersei being slapped by Robert is an example of her being oppressed. Literally anyone else in the entire world (except maybe Ned, the Baratheon bros, and Tywin) would have been executed on the spot if they acted like she did to the warrior king of a continent.

But isn't that the point? The fact that it's not only acceptable but expected for him to "punish" her for speaking out of turn speaks to the magnitude at which she was oppressed. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Fat Walda Frey. There is something about her that I really like, even though her motives and letters are suspicious.

"Gatehouse" Ameri Frey. I lover her. I really do. I love the way she gets at Jaime's goat a little which could imply she is way more crafty than we may think. It seems possible that she is connected to the Riverlands/BWB arc in the upcoming book, and I cannot wait! And I LOVE the double entendre of her name

What can I say, the Freys were set up as the enemy, traitor family in the series going back to the D&E days. I just happen to have these two hateables as my favorite hateables.

[Nihlus]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But isn't that the point? The fact that it's not only acceptable but expected for him to "punish" her for speaking out of turn speaks to the magnitude at which she was oppressed. 

Unless you consider the likes of Randyll Tarly "oppressed" because calling Robert a wuss, telling him to kill his best friend, and threatening to kill his kids would get Randyll get executed on the spot... not really.

Quote

"The Starks have driven off one and seized the other. This man [Ned] dishonors you with every breath he takes, and yet you stand there meekly, asking if his leg pains him and would he like some wine."

[note: the person Ned 'drove off' and who Cersei is making a fuss over was Jaime, who just murdered Ned's household guard and crippled him]

Robert's face was dark with anger. "How many times must I tell you to hold your tongue, woman?"

Cersei's face was a study in contempt. "What a jape the gods have made of us two," she said "By all rights, you ought to be the one in skirts and me in mail."

Please just sub some other normally powerful and nigh-untouchable individual for Cersei here, like the various lords of Westeros such as Randyll and Alester. Would any of them get away with calling Robert a pussy who should be wearing a dress to his face right after urging him to kill his best friend and Warden of the North? I'd think that anyone else besides Ned, Tywin, and maybe his brothers would be in serious risk of death if they did that. If anything the fact that he didn't beat the shit out of her full force was the sexist part. 

[DominusNovus]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But isn't that the point? The fact that it's not only acceptable but expected for him to "punish" her for speaking out of turn speaks to the magnitude at which she was oppressed. 

According to BBB himself, it isn’t expected.

Quote

The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not … that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. "I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head

I’m not going to defend BBB for hitting her (the entire point of chivalry is to channel men’s aggression away from doing just that and worse), even though she is mocking his best friend after his men were butchered, I’m just going to say that the scene doesn’t read as one where he was expected to hit her. Even the brute knows he was unacceptably brutish there.

[DominusNovus]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Fat Walda Frey. There is something about her that I really like, even though her motives and letters are suspicious.

"Gatehouse" Ameri Frey. I lover her. I really do. I love the way she gets at Jaime's goat a little which could imply she is way more crafty than we may think. It seems possible that she is connected to the Riverlands/BWB arc in the upcoming book, and I cannot wait! And I LOVE the double entendre of her name

What can I say, the Freys were set up as the enemy, traitor family in the series going back to the D&E days. I just happen to have these two hateables as my favorite hateables.

Somehow, even as a Frey-hater of the first order, I can never bring myself to hate most of the Frey women.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

According to BBB himself, it isn’t expected.

I’m not going to defend BBB for hitting her (the entire point of chivalry is to channel men’s aggression away from doing just that and worse), even though she is mocking his best friend after his men were butchered, I’m just going to say that the scene doesn’t read as one where he was expected to hit her. Even the brute knows he was unacceptably brutish there.

I agree. I was replying to the post that said anyone else would have been executed. I only meant that the fact that punishment for her back talk was expected. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Nihlus said:

Unless you consider the likes of Randyll Tarly "oppressed" because calling Robert a wuss, telling him to kill his best friend, and threatening to kill his kids would get Randyll get executed on the spot... not really.

Please just sub some other normally powerful and nigh-untouchable individual for Cersei here, like the various lords of Westeros such as Randyll and Alester. Would any of them get away with calling Robert a pussy who should be wearing a dress to his face right after urging him to kill his best friend and Warden of the North? I'd think that anyone else besides Ned, Tywin, and maybe his brothers would be in serious risk of death if they did that. If anything the fact that he didn't beat the shit out of her full force was the sexist part. 

I don't think you can compare it like that though. Randyll would never be in the position Cersei is in. If Ned had wronged (in Randyll's eyes) Randyll's brother he would have to bring his grievance to court right? He would present his claim & Robert would have to pass judgement. Robert or who ever was acting King would have to listen to his claim - he wouldn't have to agree with it - but he would have to listen. He would have to respond in kind; make a ruling. If that ruling was not in Randyll's favor he may or may not sass the king but I would bet if he did Robert wouldn't jump off the throne to smack him across the face. He may get some punishment for it but it wouldn't be that. 

Cersei is not in a position to bring her grievance before the court. She has a personal relationship with the king & expresses her anger to Robert in private, albeit not very nicely. 

The fact that Ned or Tywin would not get the same treatment Cersei did is IMO the better comparison. Robert loves Ned, he is a friend, they may have an argument if Ned said the same things Cersei did but he would not hit him. Cersei is his wife & the mother of his children but does not garner the same respect Robert's close male friend does. Why? Because she is a woman. 

Doesn't the mere fact that a man is allowed to hit his wife say that women in general are oppressed? 

[Nihlus]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think you can compare it like that though. Randyll would never be in the position Cersei is in. If Ned had wronged (in Randyll's eyes) Randyll's brother he would have to bring his grievance to court right? He would present his claim & Robert would have to pass judgement. Robert or who ever was acting King would have to listen to his claim - he wouldn't have to agree with it - but he would have to listen. He would have to respond in kind; make a ruling. If that ruling was not in Randyll's favor he may or may not sass the king but I would bet if he did Robert wouldn't jump off the throne to smack him across the face. He may get some punishment for it but it wouldn't be that. 

He wouldn't jump off the throne to smack him (though if Randyll was within striking distance, like Cersei was, he probably would punch him in his rage), he'd have Randyll killed, especially if Randyll followed it up with saying he should kill Ned. You do not call a drunken aging warrior king a pussy to his face and then expect to get away with it. By real world feudal standards, much less the more despotic nature of Westerosi's system, that's complete madness.

Quote

The fact that Ned or Tywin would not get the same treatment Cersei did is IMO the better comparison. Robert loves Ned, he is a friend, they may have an argument if Ned said the same things Cersei did but he would not hit him. Cersei is his wife & the mother of his children but does not garner the same respect Robert's close male friend does. Why? Because she is a woman. 

No, because he hates Cersei and doesn't hate Ned. Quite simple, really. 

Quote

Doesn't the mere fact that a man is allowed to hit his wife say that women in general are oppressed? 

We're not talking about women in general, we're talking about Cersei. And no, I don't think this instance indicates Cersei is oppressed. I think it indicates she's absurdly privileged because Robert didn't punch her in the face as hard as he could and then toss her in jail pending execution, like he would with almost anyone else in the world.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Nihlus said:

He wouldn't jump off the throne to smack him (though if Randyll was within striking distance, like Cersei was, he probably would punch him in his rage), he'd have Randyll killed, especially if Randyll followed it up with saying he should kill Ned. You do not call a drunken aging warrior king a pussy to his face and then expect to get away with it. By real world feudal standards, much less the more despotic nature of Westerosi's system, that's complete madness.

We will have to agree to disagree about this one. I don't think it speaks much to whether or not Cersei is oppressed because regardless of what Robert would or wouldn't do to Randyll, Randyll doesn't have a close personal relationship to Robert & Cersei does. More so than Randyll anyway. 

 

11 minutes ago, Nihlus said:

No, because he hates Cersei and doesn't hate Ned. Quite simple, really

True but I don't think that's the entire reason. I think any wife that Robert had, regardless if he hated or loved her would have been hit for talking to him that way. And I think Robert would have reacted this way at any point in their marriage. Before he hated her. I'm not saying she is some angel or that he is to blame for all of her craziness, or any of it for that matter, only that in a society where an acceptable punishment for your wife is to strike her, said woman is oppressed. 

 

13 minutes ago, Nihlus said:

We're not talking about women in general, we're talking about Cersei. And no, I don't think this instance indicates Cersei is oppressed. I think it indicates she's absurdly privileged because Robert didn't punch her in the face as hard as he could and then toss her in jail pending execution, like he would with almost anyone else in the world

Fair enough. 

[Brannis the Mannis]

On 9/22/2017 at 1:27 PM, Chebyshov said:

Cersei is a complicated and a wonderfully challenging PoV character between her internalized misogyny and years of abuse (which has sadly perpetuated, as she's now an abuser and acted as a secondary abuser to Tyrion growing up). I'm not saying she's a peach, but I think the fandom tendency to woobify everyone she comes in contact with is ridiculous. 

She was pretty insane far before any sort of "abuse" considering that she pushed her best friend down a well as a child. 

Cersei is not complicated at all. She is 100% evil- even worse, an evil moron. At the very least Tywin could get things done. 

[Nihlus]

On 9/22/2017 at 11:27 AM, Chebyshov said:

Cersei is a complicated and a wonderfully challenging PoV character between her internalized misogyny and years of abuse (which has sadly perpetuated, as she's now an abuser and acted as a secondary abuser to Tyrion growing up). I'm not saying she's a peach, but I think the fandom tendency to woobify everyone she comes in contact with is ridiculous. 

lol

She killed her best friend, crippled a random peasant crone because she could, and sexually abused her baby brother, all before she turned 12. She's about as "complicated and wonderfully challenging" as Kraznys.

[Wall Flower]

2 hours ago, Nihlus said:

He wouldn't jump off the throne to smack him (though if Randyll was within striking distance, like Cersei was, he probably would punch him in his rage), he'd have Randyll killed, especially if Randyll followed it up with saying he should kill Ned. You do not call a drunken aging warrior king a pussy to his face and then expect to get away with it. By real world feudal standards, much less the more despotic nature of Westerosi's system, that's complete madness.

No, because he hates Cersei and doesn't hate Ned. Quite simple, really. 

We're not talking about women in general, we're talking about Cersei. And no, I don't think this instance indicates Cersei is oppressed. I think it indicates she's absurdly privileged because Robert didn't punch her in the face as hard as he could and then toss her in jail pending execution, like he would with almost anyone else in the world.

If Robert started executing his own wife and other lords for backchatting him, people would be wanting Aerys back.

The whole point about Cersei (and her predecessors, Rhaella and Naerys) is that even at the very pinnacle of status for women, as Queen, they could still be beaten, raped and cheated on with impunity. Oppression of women rises to the very top in Westeros.  Naerys and Rhaella did what they were told was their duty and put up with it but Cersei, being Cersei, plotted and carried out her revenge on Robert.

[Nihlus]

23 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

If Robert started executing his own wife and other lords for backchatting him, people would be wanting Aerys back.

No, calling out a king to his face and insinuating he's a wuss unless he kills his friend is totally viable grounds for execution in a feudal society.

[DominusNovus]

1 hour ago, Nihlus said:

No, calling out a king to his face and insinuating he's a wuss unless he kills his friend is totally viable grounds for execution in a feudal society.

Maybe not execution, but certainly some consequences.

Anyway, we've spent much more of this thread going back and forth on Cersei.  Shall we go back to discussing hatable characters in general?

[Foot_Of_The_King]

Honestly, I love most of the characters you are supposed to hate. If I had to pick one I'd say Tywin. He's a good example of how most "great men" throughout history were bad people. I admire how capable this dude was. 

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

Craster is one for me. It's hard to imagine a more despicable man but you gotta love how he takes nasty hillbilly to a whole 'nother level. He founded Wildling Duck Dynasty.

[Orphalesion]

Well first I will say that personally I could never admire or respect someone only because they are strong or intelligent, but only for the ways they use those advantages. So respecting Littlefinger just because he is good at manipulating people is a very alien mindset to me.

That being said I like (not respect, not admire, not condone) Ramsay just because of how over the top and hilarious his blatant villainy is and how happy he is doing what he does and at the same time how clearly messed up he is.
I found myself laughing at several of his chapters.

[Lord Asher Forrester]

In the main story it is Euron Greyjoy he is the darkest meanest warlock motherfucker in the whole world he is some classical type of villain.

One other badass grumpy asshole that i enjoyed much reading about was One-Eyed Aemond Targeryen, from the war called dance of dragons, but he is not that bad compared to others, he is very hateable though.