U.S. Politics: A City Upon A Hill Has Lost It's Shine.

[Rippounet]

38 minutes ago, Ormond said:

As someone who was alive during the Vietnam war and its protests, I certainly don't remember the violent protests against that war as having been "effective." My interpretation would be that the violent protests actually prolonged America's involvement in that war rather than getting people to seriously consider any arguments against it by the protestors. Do you have any actual research that shows otherwise?

I dunno about violence, but it's a historical fact that the protests did make the continuation of the war impossible.
That's coming from Nixon himself.

[maarsen]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

How is taking a knee during the anthem unlawful? No one is, right now, proposing anything unlawful to be done. Though it is being pointed out that if you suppress peaceful, nonviolent protest, you're not gonna like the alternative. 

Nice point. Protesting something should make people uncomfortable. The hope is that it makes them receptive and starts a conversation about why one is doing the protest. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Milo was threatening to out a transsexual student at the campus, after he had done it before at a prior event. 

Ok, I know this has been said on these threads on multiple occasions, but this is not how I remember it.  From what I recall, he was reportedly going to out undocumented students at the Berkeley protest - and this is what I find when I google it.  I don't see anything on him ousting a trans student like he did in Wisconsin.  This doesn't matter to the argument - I suppose we could argue which is more deplorable but they're both disgusting - just wondering if anyone can confirm this for me?

[The Anti-Targ]

So, can I put in a request for the next thread subtitle, since we're getting to that point?

"You can do freedom of speech on your own time"

For context

At 5'20"

 

[maarsen]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

That's probably fair. We do have a lot of research that shows that the violent protests caused people to be aware of the war for a lot longer. That being said, the protests almost certainly caused LBJ to not continue to be POTUS and set the stage for Nixon to come in, and it even more likely caused Nixon to win in a landslide in 1972 given McGovern's main position was entirely antiwar. 

But it's hard to separate out the protests of nonviolence or violence particularly well, though Nixon certainly used the violent ones and the riots as an excuse to be a 'law and order' POTUS. 

The anti war protests were not usually violent until the police or National Guard were called in. Kent State for example.  Even so one has to differentiate between inner city rioting and anti war protesting as they had different roots, and participants. A very small minority used bombings and bank robberies to make their point. 

Nixon didn't win over McGovern by wanting to escalate the war but to try and extract the US without looking like a loser. And yes I am old enough to remember  all this stuff. Just a bit too young though. I did read Abbie Hoffman's Steal This Book numerous times in preparation for when I got older and some neat self defense stuff, always carry a newspaper, for instance,  still sticks with me.

As for Nixon being for law and order, I still find that funny.

[DMC]

Just saw this:

Looks like the Hill's greatest couple is going to make it after all.  That makeup sex though...

[Martell Spy]

What is dead may never die.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/26/16361250/obamacare-repeal-deadline-september-30

How Republicans could still revive Obamacare repeal after their September 30 deadline
Repeal will never truly be dead so long as the GOP controls Congress.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/it-takes-a-nation-of-snowflakes/541050/

A Nation of Snowflakes
The greatest threats to free speech in America come from the state, not from activists on college campuses.

[Ormond]

35 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So, can I put in a request for the next thread subtitle, since we're getting to that point?

"You can do freedom of speech on your own time"

 

 

?? You don't put in a "request" for the next thread subtitle -- you just have to try to make sure to be the person who starts that thread. 

[Zorral]

How do you all view violent vs non violent protests when it comes to the struggle of the Palestinians to establish their own state vs Israel determination that they can't have it?

[Dr. Pepper]

22 minutes ago, Zorral said:

How do you all view violent vs non violent protests when it comes to the struggle of the Palestinians to establish their own state vs Israel determination that they can't have it?

I support both.  It's been proven that there is no peaceful nonviolent path for Palestine against Israel.  They really have little choice right now.  It's continued genocide or fighting back by any means necessary.

[Bonnot OG]

http://www.yesmagazine.org/peace-justice/im-an-80-year-old-holocaust-survivor-antifas-arent-scary-neo-nazis-are-20170925

[The Anti-Targ]

3 hours ago, Ormond said:

?? You don't put in a "request" for the next thread subtitle -- you just have to try to make sure to be the person who starts that thread. 

Sure, but putting in a request means there's a better chance of that being the subtitle (or something like it) if I don;t happen to be the lucky one who gets to make the new thread. Besides, as an outsider I feel like I'm treading on toes if I make a US politics thread, not that that's completely stopped me.

[The Anti-Targ]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

How do you all view violent vs non violent protests when it comes to the struggle of the Palestinians to establish their own state vs Israel determination that they can't have it?

How's violence worked out for the Palestinians so far? I would say the Palestinians have mostly made the best progress when using non-violent approaches. I'm pretty sure that when Palestinians have used pre-meditated, strategic, offensive violence they've not achieved much other than a disproportionately violence reaction from Israel.

The fate of Palestinians is really out of their hands. One state, two states or being indefinitely stateless is going to be a multi-party decision that is going to heavily rely on the good will and sympathy of countries (primarily the USA) other than Israel and Palestine. The USA is only going to agree to anything if it perceives that Israel as a country and the Jewish culture and religion will not be under threat. Ongoing violence by Palestinians undermines efforts to convince the USA that Israel does not (and would not) continue to face substantial threats to its existence. And Israel continues to get to claim an existential threat with every small act of violence against it.

[Altherion]

9 hours ago, Rippounet said:

It seems to me his very posture goes against the argument that he is rejecting "everything good about America." You don't bend the knee to stuff you don't respect at least a little bit. The fact that he specifically said he loved America also makes me doubt that he is showing hatred for America.

He changed his tune a bit after he saw how angry people became (and how little they were listening to what he intended to say), but by that point, people had fixed on what he meant. Again, you have to understand how important the anthem, the flag and other symbols are to many Americans. It's not everybody -- you can certainly find many people who don't care and even some who actively attack these symbols -- but there are a lot of people who are genuinely mad. There's no obvious analogue for this in Western Europe.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

21 hours ago, dmc515 said:

The notion that there's a causal link between the protests and the NFL's ratings dive does not have face validity to me.  Sorry, I've just heard it a lot in real world conversations, and the willful ignorance of so many (obvious) other factors is really starting to annoy me.

Yeah, it's bullshit to point to this protest as being a major reason for the NFL's current woes. The country is pretty fairly split on the anthem protest, methinks. Keep in mind that Kaepernick's jersey was among the top 3 NFL jerseys sold last season. The CTE scandal/controversy has probably been a bigger factor over the past few years. That is an issue that truly threatens the future of the league, as parents are less and less willing to let their children play Pop Warner football. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

Right or wrong, most Americans will still see kneeling, or being absent, for the national anthem as disrespectful of the U.S. military, and all the veterans who have served their country.  Have the people who are entrenched on the far left stopped to ask themselves why Trump reinvigorated this dying debate?  Simply because he's a stupid racist and just can't help himself?  It's that kind of arrogance that helped Trump win the election in the first place.

He made the comment to get an ovation from a rally crowd. It's that simple. He's not playing chess here. 

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

How do you all view violent vs non violent protests when it comes to the struggle of the Palestinians to establish their own state vs Israel determination that they can't have it?

Firmly non-violent.  An abundance of research, including my own, has shown that Palestinian violence/terrorism is designed to escalate immediately before Israeli elections in the interest of maintaining the status quo of conservative Israeli regimes rather than the electing those that would work towards a two state solution.  There are plenty on both sides that would come to the table if the right (heh, irony!) parties were elected.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Stopping his speech wasn't about stopping his viewpoint; it was about stopping him from attacking someone else.

Really? I don't think so. At the very least, it was about both. 

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

How Republicans could still revive Obamacare repeal after their September 30 deadline
Repeal will never truly be dead so long as the GOP controls Congress.

This is something I mentioned as a possibility back when the late July bill failed.  I still don't think it's very palatable.  Granted, every GOP Senator that votes for ACA repeal will in all likelihood also be voting for any "tax reform," or tax cut measure they push through reconciliation.  But the difficulties in getting 50 votes on Obamacare repeal aren't going to magically go away.  They clearly are durable, and even if you rationalize that McCain will come on board once "regular order" is restored, regular order means the measure will face scrutiny and a true CBO score and everything that makes the GOP proposals incredibly unpopular - only amplified.  

This is why Cornyn and presumably most of the other leadership does not want to intertwine ACA repeal with their tax cuts - the latter of which they otherwise should be able to get through if they have any semblance of competence.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

8 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

3rd, that's kind of what I was getting at, but the NFL players responded in a predictable manner, and now Roesthlisberger (sp?) is questioning if he did the right thing.  And the ex-ranger is apologizing for standing (if it's okay for one man, or 52, to be absent from the anthem then surely it's okay for one veteran to salute it.  

Agree with this bit 100%. Everyone should be allowed to express their individual opinion on this regardless. Villanueva should've been on the field with his hand over his heart if that's how he felt. This team unity point confuses me.