U.S. Politics: A City Upon A Hill Has Lost It's Shine.

[Darryk]

36 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Regarding the use of violence ("punch a nazi" etc) in direct action protest, I don't like it because I think it doesn't achieve the goals being worked towards in most instances, however I recognize that violence can be held in reserve if truly needed. As anyone whose ever watched a documentary of a repressive state knows (let's take the oscar nominated recent Burma vj as an example) if you don't have violence nor arms and the other side is willing and eager to use both you're totally fucked and your nonviolent strategies have no value.

however the thing about weapons is this, if you're holding a weapon, you are likely to use it.

And people are advocating the metaphoric arming up and "holdin" violence in reserve.

So if you're rejecting non violence and saying "I can be violent if needs cause nazis deserve it, but I'll control myself, mmKay" you've primed your brain to use violence same as police do. So while you may think you're reserving violence as a last resort, your brain has primed violence into being the first action, the reflex, it is more ready than you are to engage. By going in metaphorically disarmed with nonviolence ones brain is not primed to sabotage oneself and ones goals.

too long didn't read: play with fire and you will get burned.

 

I don't really see punching a nazi as violence. It's more of a stern wake up call, like slapping someone through the face to try get them to "snap out of it". In a way, you're doing them a favor.

I mean, look at Richard Spencer's reaction to getting punched, for example. He was all like "holy shit, this is reality, not a YouTube comments section". Personally I think it benefited him in the long run.

[LongRider]

Gotta love some Nasty Women

Quote

With the history of the WNBA’s activism — especially in the past two years — WNBA president Lisa Borders knew that it was likely her players would have some sort of gesture during the national anthem at the first game of the Finals on Sunday...................

“Our players are some of the most socially conscious that you will ever find,” she continued. “You have seen that in the years before I got here and I’m sure it will continue in the future.”

It did, only a short time later. The Los Angeles Sparks went to the locker room during the national anthem and the Minnesota Lynx linked arms.

 

 

 

[LongRider]

Well said.

 

[Ice Queen]

21 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, this has totally blown up in his face. I'm proud to be a fan of the NFL today. 

You should see my fellow Yinzers on social media losing their damned minds. One of my childhood friends had a bonfire in her backyard last night and burned all her Steelers gear. 

Of course, Pittsburgh really isn't Paris. It's just Northern Redneck. 

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, Rippounet said:

America is a continent, and it doesn't care much about being "direspected."

Seriously though, the US is almost unique in the Western world with its insistance on patriotism, elevating respect for the national anthem and the flag to an almost religious point.

And seen from the outside the entire thing is bizarre. I just don't get what's so irrespectful about these players' attitude. They still pay their respects to the anthem with hand over heart, don't they? Bending one knee is a small gesture to make a point, it's hardly irrespectful.
It would be irrespectful if you stayed in the locker room (some threatened to do that) or ignored the anthem completely (playing on your smartphone or something). But just taking a knee during a national anthem is hardly rejecting "America," whatever that's supposed to mean (and what does it mean, really, I wonder? ).

As to the fact that they're millionaires it shouldn't even be mentioned. So what? Most opinion-makers in the US are. Most congressmen are. The president is a billionaire. In the US you pretty much need to be successful to be allowed a voice. Pointing out the class divide when it comes to social justice is ironic. Because these guys are wealthy they shouldn't take a stand against racism? Then who will?

And speaking about racism, it's obvious that the entire controversy has racist undertones. There was something similar in France actually, when some moronic right-wingers accused the arabic or black players of the national football team of not singing the Marseillaise (which goes to show that the US in France still have stuff in common... not the best too). Pretty much backfired actually, since these guys were immensely popular at the time. Anyway, it's always the brown guys who get accused of being "un-patriotic," "un-American," "un-French" or whatever. No coincidence there.

I despise patriotism and American patriotism is used in particularly despicable ways. But as someone said it better than me:

 

Yes indeed.  Like romperman this space has posted all weekend about taking the knee, and other than myself, not a word about the state of Puerto Rico and that romperman and this joke of a government still hasn't sent any of the US navy to help these people dying of thirst, starvation, and flooding -- these people are US CITIZENS folks.  We were outraged about busherola and Katrina, but not a word about this guy, who with his designer clothed wife took photo ops in Harvey's Houston.  

As for a three month stay of violence, it is huge, so speaks one whose was subjected regularly and arbitrarily to beatings by dad -- that winter he worked away from home was heaven.

[Ice Queen]

2 hours ago, Darryk said:

I don't really see punching a nazi as violence. It's more of a stern wake up call, like slapping someone through the face to try get them to "snap out of it". In a way, you're doing them a favor.

I mean, look at Richard Spencer's reaction to getting punched, for example. He was all like "holy shit, this is reality, not a YouTube comments section". Personally I think it benefited him in the long run.

I don't care what anyone thinks of me when I quote my grandfather, who fought in WWII and was in the South Pacific for Hiroshima and Nagasaki: the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.

Asking them politely to go away isn't going to work. Let's have no illusions about that. They've been emboldened but not yet normalized, thankfully. A whole generation of young men and women died to stamp out that ideology once and for all time, so that it never reared its ugly head again. Sadly, here we are. If it comes down to it, I will personally pick up a rifle and shoot some, and do it gladly. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 hours ago, Rippounet said:

 

Seriously though, the US is almost unique in the Western world with its insistance on patriotism, elevating respect for the national anthem and the flag to an almost religious point.

 

You know the old line, “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

[the Greenleif Stark]

In regards to all the stupid debate and uproar over kneel/don't knee stuff....seems to me that this is just another thing dividing out country and it could easily be avoided.  Obviously the flag is an emotional topic and what the taking a knee represents is even more so and bringing them together is doing nothing but separating even more.  All these NFL players are pillars in their community, they have the power to bring communities and people together, to bridge gaps.  Instead of taking a knee during the anthem why not get out in your community and proactively work on bring both sides together, resolving issues, working towards a goal?  Football, and sports in general, has the power to bring people together that may otherwise have differences, so why not capitalize on that and bring people together to discuss your issues?  

[lessthanluke]

14 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

  Instead of taking a knee during the anthem why not get out in your community and proactively work on bring both sides together, resolving issues, working towards a goal?  Football, and sports in general, has the power to bring people together that may otherwise have differences, so why not capitalize on that and bring people together to discuss your issues?  

Lots already do that? Read up on Kaepernicks charity work.

[The guy from the Vale]

Also, they probably want people to come together - but neither do they want the urgent issues to remain ignored.

[Sivin]

17 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

In regards to all the stupid debate and uproar over kneel/don't knee stuff....seems to me that this is just another thing dividing out country and it could easily be avoided.  Obviously the flag is an emotional topic and what the taking a knee represents is even more so and bringing them together is doing nothing but separating even more.  All these NFL players are pillars in their community, they have the power to bring communities and people together, to bridge gaps.  Instead of taking a knee during the anthem why not get out in your community and proactively work on bring both sides together, resolving issues, working towards a goal?  Football, and sports in general, has the power to bring people together that may otherwise have differences, so why not capitalize on that and bring people together to discuss your issues?  

NFL players are huge members of their communities, including Colin Kaepernick who spent most of his salary last year on charitable endeavours and community outreach programs for children. Almost every player has a football camp in their home town over the summer, financed by themselves. J.J. Watt raised over 30 million dollars for relief efforts after Hurricane Harvey in like 3 weeks. Cam Newton visits children's hospitals on the regular.

But you didn't know any of that did you? And you wouldn't have if they hadn't made a statement by peacefully protesting during a song about a piece of cloth.

 

[Zorral]

This is the health care that the repugs bring to those who voted for them -- here's the example of North Carolina -- this already how it is in much of the western and midwestern states -- and worse too -- not tens and twenties of miles, but hundreds of miles to get prenatal, birthing and post natal care -- yes we really love our rural regions:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/maternity-wards-closing-mission_us_59c3dd45e4b06f93538d09f9?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

 

Quote

 

. . . Mission will provide birthing services only at its locations in Asheville and Marion. That means women in rural counties will have to drive at least 20 miles to give birth and — if they want to be able to see the same providers in the delivery room they saw throughout their pregnancies — to get prenatal care. 

The roads through the mountains during labor pose a major concern, even without snow. The peaks in this region are the highest in the eastern United States. Except for a few major highways, such as Interstate 40, most roads weren’t built by blasting through or tunneling under these hills. They wind around them, often with precipitous drops on one side.

 

 

[Zorral]

Once again a white guy insists that the job of learning what the black communities do, and what the issues with cops etc. are is that of the black communities.  He isn't about to employ his little finger to click and learn the information that is everywhere available all over the internet, for instance.  Instead he complains that 'they' aren't doing their job -- which, in fact, the very thing he's complaining about is being brought to the fore by taking the knee, etc., but somehow that's not good enough, or the right way, or something to get anybody like him to pay attention.  He doesn't type a single word about the issues themselves, but only about how wrong in his white eyes this is.  Feh. 

[Sivin]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Once again a white guy insists that the job of learning what the black communities do, and what the issues with cops etc. are is that of the black communities.  He isn't about to employ his little finger to click and learn the information that is everywhere available all over the internet, for instance.  Instead he complains that 'they' aren't doing their job -- which, in fact, the very thing he's complaining about is being brought to the fore by taking the knee, etc., but somehow that's not good enough, or the right way, or something to get anybody like him to pay attention.  He doesn't type a single word about the issues themselves, but only about how wrong in his white eyes this is.  Feh. 

Prepare yourself for the "how do you know I'm white?" That's incoming.

[S John]

21 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

In regards to all the stupid debate and uproar over kneel/don't knee stuff....seems to me that this is just another thing dividing out country and it could easily be avoided.  Obviously the flag is an emotional topic and what the taking a knee represents is even more so and bringing them together is doing nothing but separating even more.  All these NFL players are pillars in their community, they have the power to bring communities and people together, to bridge gaps.  Instead of taking a knee during the anthem why not get out in your community and proactively work on bring both sides together, resolving issues, working towards a goal?  Football, and sports in general, has the power to bring people together that may otherwise have differences, so why not capitalize on that and bring people together to discuss your issues?  

I've seen a lot of people expressing that they aren't upset with the players for protesting, but the way they are doing it.  

However - I can't think of another peaceful protest that would have garnered half as much attention as what's going on. The whole point of a protest is to bring attention to an issue, and with any type of political protest there will be plenty out there who just don't like the message no matter how its delivered.  I don't really buy that the methods are the problem when those methods are peaceful and non-disruptive.  

If these players had held a separate press conference or created a community outreach program or something to discuss this issue they would reach only those who are interested enough to tune in - but that is not who they are trying to reach and instead the whole country is thinking about it. It's been headline grabbing and peaceful, and even the president of the USA is chiming in (unhelpfully, as per usual).  In that sense it has been extremely effective as well as highly preferable to protest methods that disrupt daily life, damage property, or become violent - methods that are also widely criticized in the "I just don't like the way they are doing it" fashion.  

All things considered, sitting or taking a knee during the anthem is actually a pretty damn mild form of disobedience, and actually not even disobedience - more like a mild break from expected cultural norms. I am finding it difficult to understand why it's such a big deal if a few guys don't stand, but as a protest method designed to bring attention to an issue it's been wildly successful.

[Martell Spy]

The New Graham-Cassidy Draft Is a Desperate, Inept Attempt to Buy Votes

https://slate.com/business/2017/09/the-draft-is-a-a-botched-vote-buying-exercise.html

The Case Against Partisan Gerrymandering
It is both durable and democratically subversive. It’s time for the Supreme Court to intervene.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/09/the_case_against_partisan_gerrymandering.htm

The GOP’s Two-Pronged Strategy to Pass Health Care: Deceit and Reckless Speed

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/09/gops-health-care-strategy-deceit-and-reckless-speed.html

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, S John said:

I've seen a lot of people expressing that they aren't upset with the players for protesting, but the way they are doing it.  

However - I can't think of another peaceful protest that would have garnered half as much attention as what's going on. The whole point of a protest is to bring attention to an issue, and with any type of political protest there will be plenty out there who just don't like the message no matter how its delivered.  I don't really buy that the methods are the problem when those methods are peaceful and non-disruptive.  

If these players had held a separate press conference or created a community outreach program or something to discuss this issue they would reach only those who are interested enough to tune in - but that is not who they are trying to reach and instead the whole country is thinking about it. It's been headline grabbing and peaceful, and even the president of the USA is chiming in (unhelpfully, as per usual).  In that sense it has been extremely effective as well as highly preferable to protest methods that disrupt daily life, damage property, or become violent - methods that are also widely criticized in the "I just don't like the way they are doing it" fashion.  

All things considered, sitting or taking a knee during the anthem is actually a pretty damn mild form of disobedience, and actually not even disobedience - more like a mild break from expected cultural norms. I am finding it difficult to understand why it's such a big deal if a few guys don't stand, but as a protest method designed to bring attention to an issue it's been wildly successful.

Agree 100%. This is in many ways a pitch perfect form of protest. The stage is huge, no one is getting hurt, and it's an extremely subtle and unobtrusive way to exercise free speech. No one is getting shouted down or ridiculed. I don't see how you could possibly be critical of the method, as it is as understated a protest as you could possibly manage.

[the Greenleif Stark]

you guys are great, really, couldn't just wait to rip into me huh?  no back and forth, just "he's entitled white asshole."  You guys are part of the problem I'm talking about.  First, I did not in any way insinuate that protesting/kneeling during the anthem was a problem, its not.  I spoke of how it further divides.  Second, I'm not an idiot, of course I know of all the charity work the NFL players do and other athletes do.  JJ Watts is a great example as Winterfox pointed out, dude wanted to raise money for hurricane relief and went out an raised millions, proactive.  My whole point is that these athletes have the power to bring people together.  It would be so easy for these player to get the police departments to sit down with members of the community and talk things out, bridging gaps, like I said.  My whole point was that instead of dividing, bring people together. 

[Sivin]

12 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

The New Graham-Cassidy Draft Is a Desperate, Inept Attempt to Buy Votes

https://slate.com/business/2017/09/the-draft-is-a-a-botched-vote-buying-exercise.html

The Case Against Partisan Gerrymandering
It is both durable and democratically subversive. It’s time for the Supreme Court to intervene.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/09/the_case_against_partisan_gerrymandering.html
 

Doesn't matter dude. Will not be overturned.

[Week]

8 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

you guys are great, really, couldn't just wait to rip into me huh?  no back and forth, just "he's entitled white asshole."  You guys are part of the problem I'm talking about.  First, I did not in any way insinuate that protesting/kneeling during the anthem was a problem, its not.  I spoke of how it further divides.  Second, I'm not an idiot, of course I know of all the charity work the NFL players do and other athletes do.  JJ Watts is a great example as Winterfox pointed out, dude wanted to raise money for hurricane relief and went out an raised millions, proactive.  My whole point is that these athletes have the power to bring people together.  It would be so easy for these player to get the police departments to sit down with members of the community and talk things out, bridging gaps, like I said.  My whole point was that instead of dividing, bring people together. 

Seems to me that they are bringing people together. Those that consider their protest to be divisive are part of the problem that is exposed.