LittleScorpion

Was Joanna Lannister crazy?

33 posts in this topic

So Cersei is nuts, this is something I'm pretty sure we all can agree on. Though her father Tywin was a tough, unloving guy, he never came off as particularly unhinged like his daughter is. And since we know next to nothing about Joanna, I started thinking Cersei might have inherited her madness from her mother. Am I grasping at straws to kill time till Winds, or is it possible that Joanna is meant to be a darker character than we imagined?

I know there's nothing in the text necessarily supporting this, but the absence of information might be just as valuable. Tywin never talks about her, could he be protecting his late wife's reputation? Also, since we don't have any documentation of Joanna doing anything crazy, could we attribute that to her early death? Cersei's already far older than her mother ever was, and her psychosis seems to be a fairly recent thing (I know she pushed Melara down a well, but I don't think she had an actual mental break till somewhere around ASOS). Maybe Joanna didn't live long enough to fully snap like her daughter did?

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Cersei inherited madness from her father :P And Tywin was an arsehole but perfectly sane.

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Chances are, Joanna didn't go to a witch at the age of ten who told her that her three children will die, and a valonqar will choke her to death. I think Cersei's madness stems more from that than anything else. 

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I think Cersei's delusional nature comes from Tywin. He wasn't as bad as her, and, more importantly, he was smart enough to get away with it, but it was there.

He was always absolutely sure that Jaime would come around and reject the Kingsguard to become his heir—an unprecedented move, and one that Jaime had made abundantly clear wasn't happening. Meanwhile, he refused to accept the possibility of Tyrion being his heir, but never made a move to disinherit him, bribe him into exile, or do anything else that would prevent it. He even went on to make plots—like marrying Tyrion to Sansa—that make any such moves impossible. Nor did he consider grooming Tommen and leaving a will to place him ahead of Tyrion. He just assumed that things would happen the way he wanted, even though they clearly weren't going to.

He couldn't see the incest happening under his own nose. He was the last to see the signs of madness in Aerys. He failed to see any danger in Littlefinger, even though Tyrion could spot it almost right away. He childed Tyrion for visiting whores while doing so himself, and I doubt that was conscious hypocrisy; he just didn't see himself as a man who visited whores, even though he was.

Also, the whole thing about never laughing because he believed all laughter was at his family's expense—that's not normal.

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Just now, 4 Eyed Crow said:

Chances are, Joanna didn't go to a witch at the age of ten who told her that her three children will die, and a valonqar will choke her to death. I think Cersei's madness stems more from that than anything else. 

I think that fueled it, absolutely. But Cersei is obviously a psychopath (or whatever the current term is), and that's not something a person can develop due to circumstance, at least to my knowledge. She was born with a mental illness. Maybe it was passed on from Joanna.

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8 minutes ago, LittleScorpion said:

I think that fueled it, absolutely. But Cersei is obviously a psychopath (or whatever the current term is), and that's not something a person can develop due to circumstance, at least to my knowledge. She was born with a mental illness. Maybe it was passed on from Joanna.

So Joanna was a carrier?

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37 minutes ago, LittleScorpion said:

I think that fueled it, absolutely. But Cersei is obviously a psychopath (or whatever the current term is), and that's not something a person can develop due to circumstance, at least to my knowledge. She was born with a mental illness. Maybe it was passed on from Joanna.

My interpretation is this: Cersei was a sociopath (or whatever the current term is) even as a child, but not really 'insane'. But then the prophecy caused her so much stress that she had a mental breakdown, so now she is delusional, paranoid, etc. in addition to being a sociopath.

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I don't think that Joanna was a sociopath. Cersei got that all from herself, and perhaps from Tywin, however Joanna was most likely much darker than fanon personality some people have given her. She has to be if she taught Cersei that tears are the weapon of women. 

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1 hour ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

IShe has to be if she taught Cersei that tears are the weapon of women. 

She was 7

Its not hard for women to figure that out by themselves

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46 minutes ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

She was 7

Its not hard for women to figure that out by themselves

During the Blackwater siege Cersei flat out tells Sansa that her mother was the one who taught her that. 

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36 minutes ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

During the Blackwater siege Cersei flat out tells Sansa that her mother was the one who taught her that. 

Her mother said Tears
 

Quote

 

the young bride of one of Ser Lancel's knights began to weep uncontrollably. The queen commanded Maester Frenken to put her to bed with a cup of dreamwine. "Tears," she said scornfully to Sansa as the woman was led from the hall. "The woman's weapon, my lady mother used to call them. The man's weapon is a sword. And that tells us all you need to know, doesn't it?"


 

 

Then Cersei adds Legs later


 

Quote

 

”She noticed the look on Sansa's face, and laughed. "Have I shocked you, my lady?" She leaned close. "You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."


 

 

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Cersei's mother died when she was 7 I believe.  Joanna gave her sound advice on how to deal with the world she was born in at a young age. Eventually women figure this out by themselves. But Cersei takes the advice and adds a thick layer of psychopath-thinking to pass off to Sansa just for amusement and for shock factor during a crisis.

 

And this is a common occurrence with Cersei's thinking throughout the series. 

 

Cersei was lucky to have a mom like Joanna

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sorry about the mix up Queen Sansa Stark, I had a longer post saying Cersei perverts good advice given to her to fill or match her very objective and opinionated view of the world Cersei sees. (sometimes it works, but more often it doesnt) It would've cleared up the confusion.

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1 hour ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Cersei's mother died when she was 7 I believe.  Joanna gave her sound advice on how to deal with the world she was born in at a young age. Eventually women figure this out by themselves. But Cersei takes the advice and adds a thick layer of psychopath-thinking to pass off to Sansa just for amusement and for shock factor during a crisis.

And this is a common occurrence with Cersei's thinking throughout the series.

Cersei was lucky to have a mom like Joanna

Straight text denial, GRRM chose to gives us in no uncertain terms that Joanna taught Cersei that tears are a woman's weapon.

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32 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Straight text denial, GRRM chose to gives us in no uncertain terms that Joanna taught Cersei that tears are a woman's weapon.

GRRM also chose to give us in no uncertain terms that ________________ ______________ and definitely ________________

Until everything is verified by the author himself in this book series, we will no longer refer to the texts ....

happy?

Edited by StraightFromAsshai

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11 minutes ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

age 4-5-6-7

happy?

Cersei's age has as much bearing on my happiness as it does the intent of the line.

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10 hours ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

I don't think that Joanna was a sociopath. Cersei got that all from herself, and perhaps from Tywin, however Joanna was most likely much darker than fanon personality some people have given her. She has to be if she taught Cersei that tears are the weapon of women. 

That's a good point. I guess the context is important on that one. That could be either a) sound advice or b ) something super inappropriate to say to your daughter. 

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13 hours ago, 4 Eyed Crow said:

Chances are, Joanna didn't go to a witch at the age of ten who told her that her three children will die, and a valonqar will choke her to death. I think Cersei's madness stems more from that than anything else. 

Chances are, Joanna wasn't held hostage by a vassal lord for six months with the threat of being executed at the first sign of any rescue attempt. Just saying.

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