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Sir Hedge of Hog

tyrion & sansa....a happy ending?

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lots of rumours of tyrion and sansa ruling, following the influences of war of the roses. Jon and Dany both dead for a variety of reasons and leaving tyrion and sansa to rule over the 7 kingdoms and bring up jon/dany babies.....thoughts on this?

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:00 AM, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

lots of rumours of tyrion and sansa ruling, following the influences of war of the roses. Jon and Dany both dead for a variety of reasons and leaving tyrion and sansa to rule over the 7 kingdoms and bring up jon/dany babies.....thoughts on this?

I'm torn on this.  I could see this happening IF Jon and Dany BOTH die.  I have long theorized that it could be feasible that Tyrion and Sansa end up together again.  He was always kind to her (Sansa's words) and he is the only husband she has had that was doing right by her.  Tyrion even pushed Shae away so he could be a good husband to Sansa.  But I don't think Jon and Dany both die.  If I had to guess one, I'd say Dany dies, Jon lives on.  But who knows.  Under the right circumstances, this could be a thing...

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12 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I'm torn on this.  I could see this happening IF Jon and Dany BOTH die.  I have long theorized that it could be feasible that Tyrion and Sansa end up together again.  He was always kind to her (Sansa's words) and he is the only husband she has had that was doing right by her.  Tyrion even pushed Shae away so he could be a good husband to Sansa.  But I don't think Jon and Dany both die.  If I had to guess one, I'd say Dany dies, Jon lives on.  But who knows.  Under the right circumstances, this could be a thing...

My bet is that Dany = Henry Tudor and Jon = Elizabeth of York to complete the War of the Roses story. 

I could see them both dying too.

But I can’t see Tyrion and Sansa ruling together. Based on what has been established in universe, Tyrion ending up aa King or King consort seems very unlikely. 

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On 2017-09-22 at 2:00 PM, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

lots of rumours of tyrion and sansa ruling, following the influences of war of the roses. Jon and Dany both dead for a variety of reasons and leaving tyrion and sansa to rule over the 7 kingdoms and bring up jon/dany babies.....thoughts on this?

Huh?
If anything the War of the Roses-influences hint to Jon and Dany surviving, not dying. As jcmontea points out, Dany = Henry Tudor and (s)he marries into the York-family with Elizabeth of York = Jon Snow.

As for Tyrion and Sansa, they may up together in the end, but I very much doubt that they will end up as king and queen.
The whole "Tyrion takes care of Jon and Danys baby"-thing was a part of the "leaked" and fake S8 scripts.

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Jon is not being presented as a representative of the stark house but of the targaryen, made him legitimate to the throne as targaryen heir and will know the truth in the next season, I think that Daenerys is going to die and jon will be the king in the end, that GRRM has been inspired by the war of the two roses for his work does not mean that he has to copy everything.

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1 minute ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

Jon is not being presented as a representative of the stark house but of the targaryen, made him legitimate to the throne as targaryen heir and will know the truth in the next season, I think that Daenerys is going to die and jon will be the king in the end, that GRRM has been inspired by the war of the two roses for his work does not mean that he has to copy everything.

Could be. But i think its likely we get marriage to end things. Marriages are how you form lasting alliances and bring stablity. Jon needs someone to marry and right now there only seems like one good option. 

Two its not clear that Jon will just embrace being a Targaryen full stop. Could happen but not sure that is a full proof assumption. As of right now he still sells himself as being of House Stark. Just as likely that continues as he decides that he is a Stark and a Targaryen but Ned is still his true father and and his House is the one his mother came from, the one that raised him and the one he identified with his whole life. If that is the resolution, he could still very much be Elizabeth York. 

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22 minutes ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

Jon is not being presented as a representative of the stark house but of the targaryen

According to whom?
For 7 seasons Jon has identified himself as a Stark despite not having the Stark name, and has represented House Stark. The show has presented him as a (illegitimate) member of House Stark and his two sisters considers him just as much a Stark as themselves.
He is a legitimate Targaryen, but the show has never (until the very last episode of season 7) presented him as such and Jon has yet to identify himself as such.

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If from the last episode of season 7 until the end, he is represented as a Targaryen, the heir to the throne for being the son (legitimate in the show now) of Rhaegar Targaryen.

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Tyrion and Sansa? Maybe, but not as king and queen, Jon Aegon Targaryen will be king, he is henry tudor/aragorn. 

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

For 7 seasons Jon has identified himself as a Stark despite not having the Stark name, and has represented House Stark. The show has presented him as a (illegitimate) member of House Stark and his two sisters considers him just as much a Stark as themselves.

He is a legitimate Targaryen, but the show has never (until the very last episode of season 7) presented him as such and Jon has yet to identify himself as such.

lol because it was a secret for five (almost six) seasons and he has yet to find out. 

Edited by TRILOGY

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3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

My bet is that Dany = Henry Tudor and Jon = Elizabeth of York to complete the War of the Roses story. 

I could see them both dying too.

Agreed on both counts.

As for the whole "will Jon see himself as a Stark or a Targaryen" debate, I think Jon once he finds out the truth will resolve this issue the way he helped provide clarity to Theon. He told Theon he could be both a Stark and a Greyjoy. He'll likely come to the same conclusion about himself: he can be both a Stark and a Targaryen.

 

Quote

But I can’t see Tyrion and Sansa ruling together. Based on what has been established in universe, Tyrion ending up aa King or King consort seems very unlikely. 

The show doesn't seem to be setting up Sansa or Tyrion as endgame ruler(s) of Westeros material. Tyrion even had some dialogue with Varys about how "freaks" such as he and Varys would never be accepted as rulers. Not sure where Tyrion will wind up, but endgame Hand to Jon and Dany seems the likeliest scenario.

Sansa seems likely to be the endgame Lady of Winterfell, if only by process of elimination (Jon: dead or endgame king of Westeros, Bran: three eyed raven, Arya: wants freedom and resists "domestication").

Edited by Newstar

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3 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

lol because it was a secret for five (almost six) seasons and he has yet to find out. 

Yes? 

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3 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

Tyrion and Sansa? Maybe, but not as king and queen, Jon Aegon Targaryen will be king, he is henry tudor/aragorn. 

lol because it was a secret for five (almost six) seasons and he has yet to find out. 

What percent of real life adopted kids abandon there adopted family when they find out about their real dad?

 

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

 

Agreed on both counts.

As for the whole "will Jon see himself as a Stark or a Targaryen" debate, I think Jon once he finds out the truth will resolve this issue the way he helped provide clarity to Theon. He told Theon he could be both a Stark and a Greyjoy. He'll likely come to the same conclusion about himself: he can be both a Stark and a Targaryen.

Totally. I wonder what it will actually look like when he decides he is a Stark and a Targaryen. Does he keep going by Jon Snow? Probably would be my best guess. 

Also, what will it mean to be a Targaryen for him. For Theon being a Stark seems to mean embracing Ned’s teachings. I wonder what the equivalent will mean for Jon. That he can marry his aunt? 

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25 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Totally. I wonder what it will actually look like when he decides he is a Stark and a Targaryen. Does he keep going by Jon Snow? Probably would be my best guess. 

I can imagine Jon being asked whether he wants to be called Aegon and being all "God, no."

 

Quote

Also, what will it mean to be a Targaryen for him. For Theon being a Stark seems to mean embracing Ned’s teachings. I wonder what the equivalent will mean for Jon. That he can marry his aunt? 

Well, according to the official ASOIAF Stark family tree, the Starks married their relatives quite a bit, so the "Stark way" would likely be no impediment, LOL.

Edited by Newstar

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5 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I can imagine Jon being asked whether he wants to be called Aegon and being all "God, no."

Lol. I agree. Other than when him and Dany are being kinky and she really wants to feel like a Targaryen will he go by Aegon. 

5 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Well, according to the official ASOIAF Stark family tree, the Starks married their relatives quite a bit, so the "Stark way" would likely be no impediment, LOL.

George/ D&D certainly went out of their way to make sure the incest hurdle could be overcome. Its crazy. Literally: 

- politically obvious choice - check 

- history in the stark line - check

- history in the targ line - check to the fiftieth power squared

- make them fall in love first - check 

- send the man with more experience with incest alive and who can tell him "we don't control who we fall in love with" (Elaria told him something like that back in 5x09) up north - check 

- get her pregnant - check 

- make Jon averse to fathering a bastard - check 

This is either the most carefully plotted relationship or the biggest red herring ever. 

But if not to overcome incest, it does raise the question what being a Targaryen will really mean for Jon when he accepts it. 

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10 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Lol. I agree. Other than when him and Dany are being kinky and she really wants to feel like a Targaryen will he go by Aegon. 

Heh, yes. 

 

Quote

 

George/ D&D certainly went out of their way to make sure the incest hurdle could be overcome. Its crazy. Literally: 

- politically obvious choice - check 

- history in the stark line - check

- history in the targ line - check to the fiftieth power squared

- make them fall in love first - check 

- send the man with more experience with incest alive and who can tell him "we don't control who we fall in love with" (Elaria told him something like that back in 5x09) up north - check 

- get her pregnant - check 

- make Jon averse to fathering a bastard - check 

This is either the most carefully plotted relationship or the biggest red herring ever. 

 

Oh, I agree. Also, if Jon had known about his parentage before falling in love with and banging Dany, the whole thing would have reeked of opportunism, since marriage is the best solution for their competing claims.

 

Quote

But if not to overcome incest, it does raise the question what being a Targaryen will really mean for Jon when he accepts it. 

Riding a dragon, hopefully. I'll feel downright cheated if Dany remains the sole (human) dragonrider in the show.

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27 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Heh, yes. 

 

Oh, I agree. Also, if Jon had known about his parentage before falling in love with and banging Dany, the whole thing would have reeked of opportunism, since marriage is the best solution for their competing claims.

good point. 

Quote

 

Riding a dragon, hopefully. I'll feel downright cheated if Dany remains the sole (human) dragonrider in the show.

yes. agreed. I am personally hoping Jon is Dameon to the NK's Aemond (but he and Rhaegal survive unlike Dameon and Caraxes). 

EDIT: Feels like too much awseome spectical but @MinscS2 gave a good argument why might not happen

Edited by jcmontea

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13 hours ago, jcmontea said:

What percent of real life adopted kids abandon there adopted family when they find out about their real dad?

Who cares? This is fantasy, not real life, the same rules don't apply, a targaryen raised in the north, sounds good to me. It's not about what he wants, it's about what is best for the realm. 

Abandon? No, he'll always be a stark to them, just not in name. 

Edited by TRILOGY

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21 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Who cares? This is fantasy, not real life, the same rules don't apply, a targaryen raised in the north, sounds good to me. It's not about what he wants, it's about what is best for the realm. 

Abandon? No, he'll always be a stark to them, just not in name. 

Actually i would argue it does matter. You can make up whetever you want, but you have to get the human element in these stories right.

If the story is about the human heart in conflict with itself which Martin has said, than the human reactions have to be spot on. 

Of course that is not say he won’t embrace the name, just makes me think it might not be the most likely scenario and certainly does not seem clear cut. 

Edited by jcmontea

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On 9/25/2017 at 2:07 PM, MinscS2 said:

Huh?
If anything the War of the Roses-influences hint to Jon and Dany surviving, not dying. As jcmontea points out, Dany = Henry Tudor and (s)he marries into the York-family with Elizabeth of York = Jon Snow.

Actually the point of the Tudor/York union was to unite the two competing claims, as there was nobody else alive with a better claim on either side.  As Jon is a Targaryen and a Stark, he doesn't represent the opposing claim to Daenerys'.  This is why I see Gendry and Danny ending up together.  They would merge House Targaryen with House Baratheon, leaving nobody else with a claim to the Iron Throne.   Tudor and York weren't a love match either, but they respected each other and grew to love one another.  The purpose was to stop the bloodshed, and since nobody seriously believes House Lannister has any legitimate claim to the throne, that would do it.   

John Snow's days are numbered.  He's been brought back from the dead, and once he's fulfilled some great destiny, he'll return to death forever.  Valar Morghulis.

As for Tyrion and Sansa, that would make a nice secondary pairing, as the war between the Lannisters and the Starks would be put to rest, even though it's not a war for an uncomfortable, metal chair.  It still destroys  far too many lives, so the two unions, after the army of the dead and the Night King have been dealt with, will bring peace to a war weary Westeros, 

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