Darth Richard II Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Random topic derailment! There was an interesting argument in one of the politics threads about if IQ tests actually mean anything anymore, and that's all I can think of right now. IQ has meaning because it has no meaning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redeagl Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I am thinking of changing one of my Goodreads reviews of the books to this, just to see how many people would unfriend me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 50 minutes ago, Gronzag said: He's joking. I don't know, man. We recently got accused of electing Trump, and that wasn't a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 40 minutes ago, redeagl said: I am thinking of changing one of my Goodreads reviews of the books to this, just to see how many people would unfriend me. You should do this, but for a book completely unrelated and not written by Bakker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kalbear said: You should do this, but for a book completely unrelated and not written by Bakker. Put it up for a Malazan book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said: Put it up for a Malazan book. Tairy IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutarez Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I think the biggest problem of the series is uncertainty. I always viewed Bakker's book as onions. Each book has a "core" that's really amazing, some of the best SFF out there, ideas, moments, battles, characters and so on. There's also a lot of (potentially) rotten stuff. Problem was, every book was a promise. Things I didn't like, things that didn't make sense will all be explained in the end! From the small annoyances to the big plot events. With this mentality a lot of readers gave Bakker a lot of room to maneuver, we trusted him. Truth is, TUC could have never lived up to the hype, bakker promised too much. The cardinal sin of TUC and Bakker was his annoying style of writing. He made the mistake of switching interpretation and writing. It's much better to have crystal clear writing with multiple interpretations than confusing writing with clear events. I just didn't get what happened, even if it was cool... As for the questions above: 1)Why was Kelmo there at the exact right moment? A reasonable explanation is the timing of the events. When the camp was abandoned the skin spies could "smell" kell's blood/scent, or at least know he was part of the family. Seeing as Kellhus is the most important and dangerous person in the world, the consult probably had his (and every other major players) scent 2)Why did Kellhus bring Kelmo to Golgotterath at all? This is his weakness. Instead of doing the logical thing, he cares for Esmenet knowing that her emotions are irrational. He knows kellmomas is dangerous, but at this part of the plan it doesn't really matter. 3)Why did Kellhus seeing Kelmo cause him/Ajokli to lose control of the Chorae? Because he was distracted. For the gods Kellmomas is an impossibility, something they can't conceive. What if a pink singing elephant appeared in front of you, surely you would need some time to process this. Also, Ajokli is not used to being reasonable or making strategic choices. Nothing can harm him. Letting his guard down like a complete idiot is not such a great surprise. 4)Why did Kelmo reactivate the No-God? I have absolutely no clue. Another colossal failure...maybe my mind can't grasp the truth. However seems like nobody knows so it's not only me. Seeing as he had 4 books to answer this very basic question, it's either stupidly obvious, or too profound ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I think there's some weakness to "the readers don't get it" line as in it can be falling to a habit of academic writing, which is writing to an in group rather than reaching out to the broader public. But that all hides that often enough readers don't actually get it, but they can't admit the possibility something could be over their heads. Even in a book where the gods in it can't admit the possibility of them not getting it. Making people who can't admit their own incapacity look at gods and shake their heads about those gods being unable to admit their own incapacity has some smart arse appeal, I'm gunna admit. But if it never sinks into the audience then there was no point. If such an audience rants about 'not getting it' as being some bad mark, sure, that might satisfy some kind of troll satisfaction, but it's not changing anything. When there is no change is it really literature or is it a private joke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 48 minutes ago, Lutarez said: 4)Why did Kelmo reactivate the No-God? I have absolutely no clue. Another colossal failure...maybe my mind can't grasp the truth. However seems like nobody knows so it's not only me. Seeing as he had 4 books to answer this very basic question, it's either stupidly obvious, or too profound ... I think the more interesting question to be answered - which I think will almost certainly not be - is why anyone on Earwa should work as a substitute mind for re-activating the No-God. As far as we know, it was designed for Insertants, which apparently were not from Earwa and were expected to be part of Ark. Which comes from a planet in another part of the galaxy or another parallel universe. Why would Earwans remotely work for this? To me this would be a really cool thing to explore and get answered, and I have zero faith that it will even be addressed or considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Lutarez said: . Snip Re: why did Kellhus get choraed: I thought it was that Ajokli did it on purpose -- he made the skin spy do it as soon as he sensed Kellhus was distracted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 minute ago, larrytheimp said: Re: why did Kellhus get choraed: I thought it was that Ajokli did it on purpose -- he made the skin spy do it as soon as he sensed Kellhus was distracted I don't think so, because Cnaiur's reaction was pretty pissed off about it. (I also believe that this was basically confirmed in the AMA). Ajokli wants to take over Kellhus so he can finally rule over the granary as Kellhus, possess him and use him. If he wants Kellhus to die in that moment, all he has to do is vanish of his own accord. But Kelmomas appearing then was something that Ajokli could not see and anticipate, and Ajokli doesn't even know what happened and thinks Kellhus is in the carapace (as he's seen shouting at the No-God). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, Kalbear said: I don't think so, because Cnaiur's reaction was pretty pissed off about it. (I also believe that this was basically confirmed in the AMA). Ajokli wants to take over Kellhus so he can finally rule over the granary as Kellhus, possess him and use him. If he wants Kellhus to die in that moment, all he has to do is vanish of his own accord. But Kelmomas appearing then was something that Ajokli could not see and anticipate, and Ajokli doesn't even know what happened and thinks Kellhus is in the carapace (as he's seen shouting at the No-God). Yeah, that makes sense. I was thinking that maybe Kellhus evaded Ajokli after death because the decapitant rig or something else was a failsafe, even if he was killed he'd have a daimotic backup plan or escape route. That would still explain Ajokli-as-Cnaiur's reaction, but I agree that the Kelmomas invisible to the gods phenomenon supports and fits better with the idea that Ajokli didn't salt him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odium Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I think the series ultimately failed me, personally, as its reader, when Bakker basically revealed that so much of what we assumed was foreshadowing essentially amounted to flavortext. Knowing that stuff I'd speculated upon like all the god-mentioning in PoN, the true nature of the Consult, even stuff that was probably never going to get mentioned like all the potential hints about Moenghus playing a future role, had never really been intended and that Bakker was flying by the seat of his pants enough that he could not remember the identity of the voice in the Inrau scene (or something like that, I haven't read that scene for ages now) ... it was too much. That said, one theory that could still be interesting to explore is the idea of the Inchoroi/Ark/its creators as far-future transhumans. What if the Earwans work as Insertants because they are humans and thus bear some distant relation to the Ark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 17 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said: But is that the failure of the reader for not "getting it", or of the author, for poorly conveying all of the themes which are so necessary to the appreciation of the work? You'd have an easier time convincing a southern Baptist that Jesus was black then trying to convince Callan that Bakker can do anything wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, Triskan said: Are you basing this off of Wutteat's reveal that they've been trying to reduce the population on other planets? Because even if we know that do we know that the Carapace was always the method or was that part of Shae's idea? Well, it also comes from the Dunsult and the AMA. Just now, Triskan said: Or did we get some info in TUC that confirmed that the Inchies arrived on Earwa with the Carapace-based system already in tow? Per the AMA they did, and we got in TUC that it had been part of Ark and they simply didn't know how to activate it. But it had been the desired use of reducing the populations before, the 'art' of extinction as they said. I love that we get this special 'Insertant" word which appears literally no where in any of the 7 books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 7 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said: But is that the failure of the reader for not "getting it", or of the author, for poorly conveying all of the themes which are so necessary to the appreciation of the work? It's like a riddle - riddles are always written to fuck you over in terms of interpretation, then it's 'Oh, it was obvious' once the answers known. Well, it's like a riddle if he could sit down and explain it and you got it (if not, then yeah, he's got a failure to really reach his audience there). But it's like he's got this mysterious author thing going, almost like he wants to keep writing books based on his mystery like other authors keep wanting to sell batman comics based on villains from seventy years ago. So he's not giving away the mystery really. I at least think Bakkers mystery is fresher than batman's villains. Though I guess Ajokli is basically the joker, so maybe I'm wrong on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 6 hours ago, Darth Richard II said: You'd have an easier time convincing a southern Baptist that Jesus was black then trying to convince Callan that Bakker can do anything wrong. No no, you flatter me, but we both know who's more adamant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 15 hours ago, Lutarez said: 1)Why was Kelmo there at the exact right moment? A reasonable explanation is the timing of the events. When the camp was abandoned the skin spies could "smell" kell's blood/scent, or at least know he was part of the family. Seeing as Kellhus is the most important and dangerous person in the world, the consult probably had his (and every other major players) scent It is, at the very least, very plot convenient timing. It is hard for me to make the timeline really work for this, but whatever. If this were the only shortcoming I wouldn't have a problem. Quote 2)Why did Kellhus bring Kelmo to Golgotterath at all? This is his weakness. Instead of doing the logical thing, he cares for Esmenet knowing that her emotions are irrational. He knows kellmomas is dangerous, but at this part of the plan it doesn't really matter. Right, that's the book's explanation, but I don't find it convincing. If he wanted Esmenet to be safe, why bring her to Golgotterath, rather than say, anywhere else? It's not like he has time to look after her personally, and this is a helluva dangerous place. If it weren't for Akka showing up at exactly the right moment to protect her (which he didn't know the timing of), Esmenet would have definitely been killed even if Kellhus's plans in the Ark went well. So the book explanation is that Kellhus, in his irrational desire to protect Esme, brings her to the most dangerous place on Earwa and just assumes she'll be fine. Brilliant. And if he's trying to protect Esme, why bring Kelmo too? It's all very plot convenient, but doesn't make a lot of sense. Quote 3)Why did Kellhus seeing Kelmo cause him/Ajokli to lose control of the Chorae? Because he was distracted. For the gods Kellmomas is an impossibility, something they can't conceive. What if a pink singing elephant appeared in front of you, surely you would need some time to process this. Also, Ajokli is not used to being reasonable or making strategic choices. Nothing can harm him. Letting his guard down like a complete idiot is not such a great surprise. That is the book explanation, I get that. But I again find that explanation really unsatisfying. Kellhus has been built up as this unstoppable force for seven books, and then in the climactic scene, we find out that one of the gods has been controlling him. But when Ajokli is confused and toggles back to Kellhus control, Kellhus ought to immediately reassess his situation. That is what a Dunyain would always do, and what Kellhus does many times when he is surprised. Instead he says some pithy line to his son and then gets killed by a chorae that he had to know was there. That is just a shitty anticlimax. This isn't me fanboying about Kellhus being unstoppable, I hate the guy. But if you build a character up that much, you can't just hand him the idiot ball to kill him off. Quote 4)Why did Kelmo reactivate the No-God? I have absolutely no clue. Another colossal failure...maybe my mind can't grasp the truth. However seems like nobody knows so it's not only me. Seeing as he had 4 books to answer this very basic question, it's either stupidly obvious, or too profound ... Yeah. It works because the plot demanded it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Kelmomas activates the No-God because of some innate property, genetic I assume. Presumably, he's not the only one that can activate it but such individuals are extremely rare. I think that's what Bakker is going for (or has said?). Whatever the exact thing is he doesn't think it's important to come up with details. This is like the whale mothers all over again. I'm more annoyed by the whole Kelmomas is invisible to the gods because he is the no God, and the no God exists outside of the time line, but Kelmomas is in the time line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odium Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 It is rather heavily implied that Kelmomas is the only one that can activate it, because he is the only individual who seems impervious to the gods' meddling. There's no reason to assume someone else could do that... it just so happens that there's also no explanation for why he's somehow compatible, and what with the whole "son of Seswatha" red herring, we have no real way of knowing if it's an Anasurimbor thing or what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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