Bakker LI - The Darkness That Lies Ahead (TUC Spoilers!)

[unJon]

33 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

No; I'm saying that Kellhus' self is protected, because a part of his self (or his whole soul) was the thing watching him, the head on a pole, which meant that whatever happened to the thing that interacted with the gods was not 'him'. 

And given Bakker's penchant for literalism, it may literally be an actual head, on a pole, that is watching Kellhus and acting as an observer. 

The...Arab?

Yes, it was. Specifically it was stated that it needed to be done while Ark powered up and the Oars (the two big horns of Golgotterath, well, now the one big horn) powered up and got the No-God spinning up.

Why that couldn't be done inside Ark, or on the other side where the battle wasn't, I have no idea. Shae likes to fuck with people as much as Bakker does, I suppose.

Maybe it is actually Kelhuss's head on a pole behind him. He took off his head and out on someone else's before going Outside. He leaves his head on a pole in Earwa. So he's both Outside and Inside. 

[Hello World]

The brains of the Brain?

I actually don't remember that scene at all, did they dissect a Sranc? I can see how 'sran' can be autocorrected into 'arab' looking at the keyboard.

[redeagl]

9 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

The Brain. Sorry. Autocorrect

It's obvious that when Koringhus "died" he was transferred to this world. Kellhus for example, is Trump. Both are blonde and are ultra stupid.

[Darth Richard II]

8 minutes ago, redeagl said:

It's obvious that when Koringhus "died" he was transferred to this world. Kellhus for example, is Trump. Both are blonde and are ultra stupid.

[Kalbear]

Kellhus using some kind of projection to be able to operate his body remotely given what Shae can do would make some weird sense, I suppose. 

[Callan S.]

It'll be odd seeing Kellhus become a peripheral character, if that's what happens, like Cnaiur did.

[Callan S.]

2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Doesn't Kellhus having all kinds of backups and contingencies kind of go against the idea of the Shortest Path?

Yep.

[unJon]

5 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Doesn't Kellhus having all kinds of backups and contingencies kind of go against the idea of the Shortest Path?

No. 

[.H.]

5 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Doesn't Kellhus having all kinds of backups and contingencies kind of go against the idea of the Shortest Path?

I don't think having a "ejection seat" sort of contingency plan in place means he would be off the Shortest Path.

If I put on my seat belt and have an air bag in my car, it doesn't mean I am not driving the most direct path to my destination.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

17 hours ago, Hello World said:

The brains of the Brain?

I actually don't remember that scene at all, did they dissect a Sranc? I can see how 'sran' can be autocorrected into 'arab' looking at the keyboard.

It was a part of the brain that the Sranc were missing, where the Dunyain thought that that where the soul lies, hence why Sranc are soulless.

 

ETA: ill look up quote, because I think he mentions its in the back of the brain.

ETA: trust my phone autocorrects at will, doesn't matter what's next to what on the keyboard. Or even why it autocorrects.

[Darth Richard II]

Perhaps.

[Callan S.]

Having back up plans means you're planning for failure. This is not the shortest path when you are a perfect being who never fails. And you never fail because you take the shortest path. Yes, you can feel circular logic emanating from that.

This is all stated in a parody when Moenghus wanted Serwa to teleport them right to their destination and she says 'You'd risk our deaths just to save a few footsteps?' and Moenghus replies "That's the shortest path!" with a laugh.

Off topic: Then Serwa mentiones the whole can't raise walls against what is forgotten line from the book. Making Sewa the Dunyain we needed, but not the Dunyain we got.

But on topic, the shortest path IS to teleport right to the target area despite the ghouls. The shortest path always involves working without a net, for the nets are redundant and so setting them up would not be the shortest path. Got to grasp the facist mindset of the shortest path.

[unJon]

23 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Having back up plans means you're planning for failure. This is not the shortest path when you are a perfect being who never fails. And you never fail because you take the shortest path. Yes, you can feel circular logic emanating from that.

This is all stated in a parody when Moenghus wanted Serwa to teleport them right to their destination and she says 'You'd risk our deaths just to save a few footsteps?' and Moenghus replies "That's the shortest path!" with a laugh.

Off topic: Then Serwa mentiones the whole can't raise walls against what is forgotten line from the book. Making Sewa the Dunyain we needed, but not the Dunyain we got.

But on topic, the shortest path IS to teleport right to the target area despite the ghouls. The shortest path always involves working without a net, for the nets are redundant and so setting them up would not be the shortest path. Got to grasp the facist mindset of the shortest path.

It's a "probability trance" implying the need to account for multiple possible future states of the world (some more probable than others). In other words, plans and backup plans. 

[Callan S.]

33 minutes ago, unJon said:

It's a "probability trance" implying the need to account for multiple possible future states of the world (some more probable than others). In other words, plans and backup plans. 

I disagree with your charitable reading of it - it's picking one, thin, rickety path through all of that. The shortest one. There are no back up plans as much as the whole process hinges on the fascistic assumption of utter competence in choosing at each fork in the probabilities. He's not reading the probabilities to see what could go wrong, he's reading them purely to see what 'will' go right.

Think on it, the more you assume your own competence, the more you get efficiency bonuses. If instead of spending ten hours on a back up plan you assume your own competence, then you have ten hours you can spend on something else! This is efficiency!

And utter hubris.

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Callan S. said:

I disagree with your charitable reading of it - it's picking one, thin, rickety path through all of that. The shortest one. There are no back up plans as much as the whole process hinges on the fascistic assumption of utter competence in choosing at each fork in the probabilities. He's not reading the probabilities to see what could go wrong, he's reading them purely to see what 'will' go right.

Think on it, the more you assume your own competence, the more you get efficiency bonuses. If instead of spending ten hours on a back up plan you assume your own competence, then you have ten hours you can spend on something else! This is efficiency!

And utter hubris.

 

No, it's pretty clear in the first trilogy that shortest path just picks the option most likely to succeed.  So naturally a Dunyain would, if they knew their only option had a high probability of failure, plan for that likelihood.  

 

The shortest path isn't always certain or even probable.   I mean, we see Kellhus do this all the time.  He send Proyas as an envoy to Sakarpus to ask for their allegiance.  It's easier to do this than fight them.  But when they refuse, he uses his back up plan and conquers the city.

[Callan S.]

35 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

But when they refuse, he uses his back up plan and conquers the city.

That's...not a back up plan. Any more than a kid having a tantrum when they don't get what they want is a back up plan. This is the Dunyain failing to acknowledge failure.

[Hello World]

We know Shae has being doing some soul trapping stuff with the wretches from the Dreams and now (possibly) the Dunyain. So there is a chance that the Consult has Kellhus's soul somehow.

[Callan S.]

Another theory is that Ajokli can't find Kellhus's soul because Ajokli is Kellhus. Ajokli is blind to his origin and can't see he didn't take over Kellhus but eminates from him. This would fit with the 'dead but not done' bit as well.

[Darth Richard II]

If Ajolki is Kellhus I'll publicly burn my books on youtube. That's got to be the dumbest thing I've heard since Dath Jar Jar.

[Lutarez]

Didn't really like how Esmenet was handled. So I came up with my own theory (don't know if this was mentioned before). 

Basically, what if Esmenet was part of the shortest path? What if Kellhus needed her for support? This would make Kellhus even more evil and even more Dûnyain

The new version:  

Kellhus leaves Ishual. He goes nuts. At that moment he realizes that even if he is super duper smart (one of the best of the order) he has not reached the absolute. This casts a shadow of doubt about his actions. He manipulates serwe without understanding that he is also being deceived. The circumfix happens and Kellhus is humbled for the first time. Sure, when he left he was still young and seeing the chaos in the world was overwhelming, sure he made a mistake but he vowed to never make it again. but now he has no excuse, he broke when he shouldn't have. He understands his limits and doesn't bullshit himself any more. He will do his best, he will try, however the invincibility of the Dûnyain is shattered. Their powers are not enough.

 

There is a scene when he talks to Esmenet on the wall, and she almost falls. His heart skips a beat and he becomes worried. Then he says something like "whence does this darkness come" ? now here is the crucial point! He is not curious about this, he is musing about it. He has accepted that he has a weakness so he's kinda saying "well how the heck did that happen?!" . Even before he probably made the decision to include Esmenet in the thousandfold thought. She becomes his "darkness", her role is to satisfy his only weakness, a need for affection ? love ? companionship ? I don't think even he knows (hence darkness). 

 

When shit hits the fan on the last march he realizes that the ordeal might break apart. He goes for Esmenet because he has the time, and because she is needed for the last battle. He needs her support. Because the stakes are so high his "vestigial" emotions are amplified, even if they are very, very small. Even a 1% increase in the chance of him keeping his cool is worth it.  

 
That is why he doesn't harm Kelmomas even if he should. That would break Esmenet even more, and the doesn't have the time to manage her. 

 

All this time Esmenet was cultivated, not for her women but for her support. This would explain him not having more children ( which is nonsensical). As an emperor and with his insane stamina he could have sex with 3 woman each day. Heck, as a Dûnyain there's no need to hide, he could easily justify it or just don't care. Also, why make children if they are too young? doesn't make sense. He kept trying with Esmenet for her own well being, he wanted healthy children that she can love for his own sake. The bigger children, sure, that makes sense because they can be used for the ordeal, but why the younger ones? 

 

Does this make any sense ? Kinda did when I wrote it. Anyway, it makes him seem a lot more true to this training, and reinforces the "there is only mission" view his kind holds.