Summer Bass

Bakker LI - The Darkness That Lies Ahead (TUC Spoilers!)

269 posts in this topic

I've liked Akka for most of the series, although it always bothered me that he didn't try more to help Esmenet while she was still a prostitute in Sumna. He's a freaking sorcerer-of-rank for a School that's heavily in cahoots with Conriya - he couldn't find some way to support her better financially, or relocate her to Aokynyssus? Instead he just sulked and whined about her seeing clients while he was in town. 

Mimara is really good too, which is why I hated where her story went in TUC. So much squandered potential with an interesting character. 

Oinaral Lastborn is also really good, and seems to be the only truly decent person we've met among the Nonmen. A nobody scribe who genuinely tries to do the right thing to find his father and stop Ishterebinth from being fully turned over to the Consult, and gets murdered by his giant Erratic father for his troubles (although it ultimately works despite that). He's like the Quentyn Martell of TSA. The chapters he's in are easily my favorite ones from The Great Ordeal

Edited by Summer Bass

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There's one line in there about Mandate not being able to take a partner/wife or they get killed by the Mandate.

However, discussing with Esme the risks of back channeling funds to her and if she'll take that risk - there is none.

 

Quote

 

A nobody scribe who genuinely tries to do the right thing to find his father and stop Ishterebinth from being fully turned over to the Consult, and gets murdered by his giant Erratic father for his troubles (although it ultimately works despite that).

 

 

 

It worked because of that.

He deliberately let his father kill him so the atrocity of father killing son would rekindle his fathers memories and his father would remember himself, get the message from Sorweel then go up and clear out Ishterebith of its pollution. Oinaral sacrificed himself. It's full fucking on!!

 

Quote

 

Yeah, you nailed it. This series is all about the romance.

*throws up in mouth*

 

I can't honestly tell if you're playing out a parody forum identity, Darth? What next, girls have cooties?

Edited by Callan S.
missing a space

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If the first series is adapted they will probably add more POV characters to give some insight on the holy war. Those who thought about adaptations... how would you do it ??

Edited by Lutarez

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2 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

I've liked Akka for most of the series, although it always bothered me that he didn't try more to help Esmenet while she was still a prostitute in Sumna. He's a freaking sorcerer-of-rank for a School that's heavily in cahoots with Conriya - he couldn't find some way to support her better financially, or relocate her to Aokynyssus? Instead he just sulked and whined about her seeing clients while he was in town.

He offered her many times to financially support her so she would stop whoring, but she turned him down every time 'because she knows what happens to old concubines', or something like that. That is why I feel no sympathy for Esme.  She chooses to remain a prostitute, while so many others have no other choice. Mimara even remembers when she was a child prostitute, she hoped some old disgusting pedophile would buy her to be his concubine, just so she would escape the hell of brothel.

1 hour ago, Callan S. said:

There's one line in there about Mandate not being able to take a partner/wife or they get killed by the Mandate.

I don't remember that.

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6 hours ago, Gronzag said:

 I don't remember that.

Yea, apparently people don't remember too much about the Mandate. Like, say, how the phrase. "Seswatha never shits.", is a phrase that the Mandate experience nothing of the mundane of Seswatha's life. This is how we know Akka's dreams are unique to him and him alone. Sorry, had to bring it up.

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10 hours ago, Callan S. said:

There's one line in there about Mandate not being able to take a partner/wife or they get killed by the Mandate.

However, discussing with Esme the risks of back channeling funds to her and if she'll take that risk - there is none.

 

It worked because of that.

He deliberately let his father kill him so the atrocity of father killing son would rekindle his fathers memories and his father would remember himself, get the message from Sorweel then go up and clear out Ishterebith of its pollution. Oinaral sacrificed himself. It's full fucking on!!

 

I can't honestly tell if you're playing out a parody forum identity, Darth? What next, girls have cooties?

I think you missed my point. I have no problem with romance. I have problems with anyone thinking the fucked up shit that goes on in this series even approaches romance, even the tragic kind.

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8 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think you missed my point. I have no problem with romance. I have problems with anyone thinking the fucked up shit that goes on in this series even approaches romance, even the tragic kind.

See, if he'd only replaced "tragic" with "horrifically grotesque", I'd have agreed.

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I mean really, cooties? Yes, I defend Rachael Bach, Elizabeth Bonesteel and N.K. Jemisin all the time because I'm afrraid of cooties. (For the uninformed, those books have icky romance parts tat seem to offend the grimdark bros).

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On 9/22/2017 at 0:52 PM, Gronzag said:

I'm curious, does anyone care for any particular character in this series, the way people care for ASOIAF characters?

I really liked Sorweel, he wasn't a rapist, murderer or manipulator, and was pretty much the only character in the books who didn't have any special powers, martial prowess or stunning good looks. But he did have a great moral dilemma about whether to murder Khellus who killed his father and enslaved his people, and yet might be humanity's only chance of survival. Then, of course, Bakker had him first raped by Zsoronga, then hijacked by Yathwer and, finaly, killed by little Kelm. 

I found Cnaiur and Conphas psychologically interesting. Inrilatas' theological ideas were intriguing. Xerius was an amusing ham. Xinemus honestly tried to be a good friend despite his prejudices. Mimara's compassion for horrible people can be seen as touching. Maithanet honestly tried his best to keep the empire intact. 

Proyas is an interesting case. I found his downfall sad and appreciated that he had a conscience, though he ignored it more often than not. Lots of other readers think his demise was him getting his just desserts for being a self-rightous prick throughout the series.

On rereads, I find Akka and Esmi's stuff less and less compelling.

In regards to expanded POVs for the Holy War...

Athjeari, Saubon's nephew, has a lot of interesting adventures in the descriptions of the Holy War. Making him a POV would also let us see a more sympathetic side of Saubon.

Having Gotian resent Kellhus and Saubon for the charge of the Shrial Knights could be an interesting subplot, particularly if it leads to him taking a leading role in the persecution of Kellhus.

Gothyelk's desire for death as penance could make for some good pathos.

Considering his expanded role in TAE, Fanayal probably deserves a POV. It would provide a good opportunity to humanize the Fanim as well.

Edited by Cithrin's Ale

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Reading through an ancient thread, I found the user Acid Rainbow mention this part of TTT

Quote

“What should we do?” Seswatha whispered. The exercise of sorcery couldn’t be risked, not here, where the slightest bruise would be sure to draw the Mangaecca.

Mildly interesting that the Mangaecca, which are confirmed all dead these days, were apparently still alive during the First Apocalypse  or at least Seswatha thought they were.

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13 hours ago, Gronzag said:

He offered her many times to financially support her so she would stop whoring, but she turned him down every time 'because she knows what happens to old concubines', or something like that. That is why I feel no sympathy for Esme.  She chooses to remain a prostitute, while so many others have no other choice. Mimara even remembers when she was a child prostitute, she hoped some old disgusting pedophile would buy her to be his concubine, just so she would escape the hell of brothel.

I don't remember that.

It's in there. It's like one little old line, because I was wondering why he didn't just funnel resources to her or simply become a formal couple. Those with a kindle version might want to look up terms like mandate and wife in close proximity to each other.

She's still got a faint point about the concubines - without being a formal couple, it seems the window is open for Akka to let her go when 'her looks are gone'. She's an independent woman who has to figure out her own way of surviving instead of relying on a mans whims then finding one day those whims are gone.

Once the whims are gone, she's dead. Starving to death. Who'd want to live like that, under that Damocles sword?

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5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think you missed my point. I have no problem with romance. I have problems with anyone thinking the fucked up shit that goes on in this series even approaches romance, even the tragic kind.

It sounds like you, for some reason, include everything else outside of the Esme/Akka/Kellhus love triangle, when if you read my post I specifically said you could make all that shit background shit that is barely there or not seen at all.

If you wanted to argue you can't just cull out the other themes, I'd get where you were coming from.

But I essentially said 'An adaption could focus on A and ignore B'

And you've immediately gone 'How could I think about A when B is there!'

 

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39 minutes ago, Ajûrbkli said:

Reading through an ancient thread, I found the user Acid Rainbow mention this part of TTT

Mildly interesting that the Mangaecca, which are confirmed all dead these days, were apparently still alive during the First Apocalypse  or at least Seswatha thought they were.

Another potentially interesting conclusion:  Shae's method of self-preservation was only for Shae.

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@Callan

Yeah man, you lost me too. Somewhere between Die Hard and cooties.

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I guess when a whore leaves you for some really good hypnotist its considered romantic?

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4 hours ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

In regards to expanded POVs for the Holy War...

Athjeari, Saubon's nephew, has a lot of interesting adventures in the descriptions of the Holy War. Making him a POV would also let us see a more sympathetic side of Saubon.

Having Gotian resent Kellhus and Saubon for the charge of the Shrial Knights could be an interesting subplot, particularly if it leads to him taking a leading role in the persecution of Kellhus.

Gothyelk's desire for death as penance could make for some good pathos.

Considering his expanded role in TAE, Fanayal probably deserves a POV. It would provide a good opportunity to humanize the Fanim as well.

Why restrict it to a POV limited format at all? If it's a TV show I'd think the focus would be omniscient, with a focus on some characters' narratives over others.

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7 hours ago, Callan S. said:

It's in there. It's like one little old line, because I was wondering why he didn't just funnel resources to her or simply become a formal couple. Those with a kindle version might want to look up terms like mandate and wife in close proximity to each other.

I didn't see anything like that when I did a search on my kindle copy of Darkness That Comes Before. 

 

RE: Triskan

Sort of fits with the Mangaecca being an order obsessed with power and willing to do anything after seeing the Inverse Fire. If it better saves his soul from eternal damnation, it's not hard to understand why Shae would ditch the rest of them. 

 

Edited by Summer Bass

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I liked Mimara, Theliopa and Serwa a lot. I did like Esmenet in the first trilogy, but she became increasingly less likable in the second trilogy. I still like Akka even if he also becomes somewhat less sympathetic in the last books. I also tend to like young Moenghus for some reason, despite all his attitude (or perhaps because of it.

Edited by Bastard of Godsgrace

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On 9/23/2017 at 11:54 AM, Gronzag said:

I don't remember that.

 

3 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

I didn't see anything like that when I did a search on my kindle copy of Darkness That Comes Before.

 

It's in there. The first mention is during the conversation between Akka and Geshrunni:

Quote

“I know you have no wives.”
“You don’t say. And how’s that?” Achamian glanced quickly behind him, glimpsed a whore laughing as she pressed a shiny silver ensolarii onto her sweaty breasts. The vulgar crowd about her roared, “One!”
“She’s quite good at that, you know. She uses honey.”
Geshrunni was not distracted. “Your kind aren’t allowed to have wives.”
“My kind, eh? And just what is my kind?” Another glance at the entrance.
“You’re a sorcerer. A Schoolman.”

 

And it is mentioned again when the thing called Sarcellus is speaking with Esmi.

Quote

“He stared at her. “You believe him, don’t you?”
“Believe what?”
“All that madness they prattle about. The Consult. The Second Apocalypse.”
Esmenet pursed her lips, said nothing. Where did this shame come from?
He nodded slowly. “I see … No matter. I’ll not fault you for it. You’ve spent much time with him. But there’s one last thing I would have you consider.”
Her eyes burned when she blinked. “What?”
“You do know that wives, even mistresses, are forbidden Mandate Schoolmen.”

 

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