Elements in ASoIaF

[falcotron]

I'm wondering whether there's any evidence, other than from Melisandre, that ice is actually the opposite of fire in ASoIaF.

Of course the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire", and it's all about a climactic showdown between the elements of ice and fire, right? That's certainly Melisandre's view. R'hllor, the god of truth and light and goodness, is also the god of fire; anyone who isn't fighting for R'hllor is fighting for the Great Other, the god of dark and evil, and also ice. But when has Melisandre ever been right about her interpretation?

Are fire and ice really opposites in the first place?

Historically, the best weapon against dragons hasn't been ice, but Rhoynar water magic. Or maybe rainstorms.*

In most real-life old-world cultures,** the classical elements are fire-earth-water-air. Ice isn't an element at all—in Greek terms, it's earth with some water trapped inside. In Aristotle's terms, fire is hot and dry, earth is cold and dry, water is cold and wet, and air is hot and wet.*** Water is the opposite of fire—matching the Rhoynar.

And water isn't any friendlier to ice than it is to fire. (The Others can't cross water.)

And there's plenty of magic in ASoIaF that doesn't fit either fire or ice, even besides the water magic. Melisandre's own shadowbinder magic doesn't really fit with fire at all. She considers the Old Gods to be servants of the Great Other, but warging and greenseeing don't have much to do with ice. (And of course the Children used their magic to call down the Hammer of the Waters—whether you consider that water magic or earth magic, it's certainly neither fire nor ice.) There's nothing icy about Qyburn.

Meanwhile, Melisandre seems to be confused about whether there's a struggle between fire (her) and ice (Others), or whether she's supposed to unite fire and ice in order to fight the Others. The original Last Hero myth has the hero questing for the Children and, making an alliance with them to learn something he can use to defeat the Others, which makes the idea that the Old Gods are enemies of good pretty sketchy. The Rhoynar myth goes even farther—their hero finds the river gods and gets them to stop fighting and sing a song together, which ends the Long Night.

Of course the Others do pretty clearly represent ice (or cold), and also death. But then fire also represents death. The Targaryen words are "fire and blood". And much of the fire magic we see involves death, from Dany's sacrifice to wake her dragons to Mel wanting to burn people with king's blood.

Meanwhile, many readers already interpret the "song of ice and fire" not as a "song of battle" where fire has to defeat ice, but as a cooperative song between fire and ice. Jon's is the song of fire and ice because he's a Targaryen and a Stark. Or maybe Jon and Dany together are fire and ice. But if fire and ice are really opposites, why would you need to unite them to defeat ice? If they're orthogonal ideas, then it makes sense that someone who has both would be stronger than someone who has only one, but if they're opposites, having both adds up to having nothing.****

Finally: R'hllorism is heavily based on Zoroastrianism. Zoroaster took a Persian fire god, Ahura Mazda, to be the monotheistic (or ditheistic) god, while Ahriman represents everything that is not Ahura Mazda. But ice is rarely associated with Ahriman. And neither, for that matter, is water (the opposite of fire in Persian theology)—their temples have pools of water alongside eternal flames; both are life-giving, and fire was actually created from water. Lies and darkness (Ahriman's domain) are not connected to ice, or water, or shadow, but to the negation of all elements. Even shadow is often treated as Ahura Mazda's domain, even though Ahura Mazda, like R'hllor, is the lord of light—shadow is part of light, not darkness. Shadows are only evil when they're deceitful. (Which Melisandre's shadowbinding seems to be, while there's no obvious deceit in the Others.)

Of course GRRM isn't a classical Greek writer; he comes from a tradition of modern fantasy and, even more, sci-fi. Ice is an element in a lot of modern fantasy,***** and scientifically it's pretty easy to see ice and fire representing cold and heat, which obviously are opposites. So, it's not implausible that he could have gone with ice as the opposite of fire if he'd wanted to.

But is there any text that he actually did, aside from Melisandre (or R'hllorism in general) thinking so?

---

* And of course we have a different dualistic religion, that of the Ironborn, that pits a water god against a storm god…

** Greece and India developed fire-earth-water-air, and India and the Semitic cultures fire-earth-water-wind, which is pretty close. China developed wood-fire-earth-metal-water, with no oppositions, which is pretty different—but in post-Buddhist east Asia, the Indian version is usually used.

*** Aristotle also added ether as a fifth element for things that are neither hot nor cold, neither wet nor cold.

**** Arithmetically, sqrt(1^2 + 1^2) = sqrt (2) ~ 1.414, which is more than 1, while sqrt(1^2 - 1^2) = 0, which is much less than 1.

***** Although usually it's only an "element" in systems with more than 4 elements. In AD&D's elemental planes, it's halfway between water and earth, which would make sense to the Greeks. In pre-3.0 "basic" D&D Mystara, it's actually the opposite to water, because water is love and life, while ice is death and hate. (Fire is life and hate.)

[AlaskanSandman]

42 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I'm wondering whether there's any evidence, other than from Melisandre, that ice is actually the opposite of fire in ASoIaF.

Of course the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire", and it's all about a climactic showdown between the elements of ice and fire, right? That's certainly Melisandre's view. R'hllor, the god of truth and light and goodness, is also the god of fire; anyone who isn't fighting for R'hllor is fighting for the Great Other, the god of dark and evil, and also ice. But when has Melisandre ever been right about her interpretation?

Are fire and ice really opposites in the first place?

Historically, the best weapon against dragons hasn't been ice, but Rhoynar water magic. Or maybe rainstorms.*

In most real-life old-world cultures,** the classical elements are fire-earth-water-air. Ice isn't an element at all—in Greek terms, it's earth with some water trapped inside. In Aristotle's terms, fire is hot and dry, earth is cold and dry, water is cold and wet, and air is hot and wet.*** Water is the opposite of fire—matching the Rhoynar.

And water isn't any friendlier to ice than it is to fire. (The Others can't cross water.)

And there's plenty of magic in ASoIaF that doesn't fit either fire or ice, even besides the water magic. Melisandre's own shadowbinder magic doesn't really fit with fire at all. She considers the Old Gods to be servants of the Great Other, but warging and greenseeing don't have much to do with ice. (And of course the Children used their magic to call down the Hammer of the Waters—whether you consider that water magic or earth magic, it's certainly neither fire nor ice.) There's nothing icy about Qyburn.

Meanwhile, Melisandre seems to be confused about whether there's a struggle between fire (her) and ice (Others), or whether she's supposed to unite fire and ice in order to fight the Others. The original Last Hero myth has the hero questing for the Children and, making an alliance with them to learn something he can use to defeat the Others, which makes the idea that the Old Gods are enemies of good pretty sketchy. The Rhoynar myth goes even farther—their hero finds the river gods and gets them to stop fighting and sing a song together, which ends the Long Night.

Of course the Others do pretty clearly represent ice (or cold), and also death. But then fire also represents death. The Targaryen words are "fire and blood". And much of the fire magic we see involves death, from Dany's sacrifice to wake her dragons to Mel wanting to burn people with king's blood.

Meanwhile, many readers already interpret the "song of ice and fire" not as a "song of battle" where fire has to defeat ice, but as a cooperative song between fire and ice. Jon's is the song of fire and ice because he's a Targaryen and a Stark. Or maybe Jon and Dany together are fire and ice. But if fire and ice are really opposites, why would you need to unite them to defeat ice? If they're orthogonal ideas, then it makes sense that someone who has both would be stronger than someone who has only one, but if they're opposites, having both adds up to having nothing.****

Finally: R'hllorism is heavily based on Zoroastrianism. Zoroaster took a Persian fire god, Ahura Mazda, to be the monotheistic (or ditheistic) god, while Ahriman represents everything that is not Ahura Mazda. But ice is rarely associated with Ahriman. And neither, for that matter, is water (the opposite of fire in Persian theology)—their temples have pools of water alongside eternal flames; both are life-giving, and fire was actually created from water. Lies and darkness (Ahriman's domain) are not connected to ice, or water, or shadow, but to the negation of all elements. Even shadow is often treated as Ahura Mazda's domain, even though Ahura Mazda, like R'hllor, is the lord of light—shadow is part of light, not darkness. Shadows are only evil when they're deceitful. (Which Melisandre's shadowbinding seems to be, while there's no obvious deceit in the Others.)

Of course GRRM isn't a classical Greek writer; he comes from a tradition of modern fantasy and, even more, sci-fi. Ice is an element in a lot of modern fantasy,***** and scientifically it's pretty easy to see ice and fire representing cold and heat, which obviously are opposites. So, it's not implausible that he could have gone with ice as the opposite of fire if he'd wanted to.

But is there any text that he actually did, aside from Melisandre (or R'hllorism in general) thinking so?

---

* And of course we have a different dualistic religion, that of the Ironborn, that pits a water god against a storm god…

** Greece and India developed fire-earth-water-air, and India and the Semitic cultures fire-earth-water-wind, which is pretty close. China developed wood-fire-earth-metal-water, with no oppositions, which is pretty different—but in post-Buddhist east Asia, the Indian version is usually used.

*** Aristotle also added ether as a fifth element for things that are neither hot nor cold, neither wet nor cold.

**** Arithmetically, sqrt(1^2 + 1^2) = sqrt (2) ~ 1.414, which is more than 1, while sqrt(1^2 - 1^2) = 0, which is much less than 1.

***** Although usually it's only an "element" in systems with more than 4 elements. In AD&D's elemental planes, it's halfway between water and earth, which would make sense to the Greeks. In pre-3.0 "basic" D&D Mystara, it's actually the opposite to water, because water is love and life, while ice is death and hate. (Fire is life and hate.)

I like the idea presented ( I cant remember where, i think i first saw it in a video on youtube) that the fire visions are actually being sent by the others or great other. It's an interesting idea to explore.

Ive always felt that both ice and fire take their roots from the Weirwood trees and that there may only be one force of power originally. That is untill the Bloodstone Emperor or some one found a way to manipulate the power of the trees. 

In the Grey King's myth, he supposedly stole Nagga's living fire and lit his hall with it. This is when it happened IMO. Nagga the Sea Dragon may have just been a giant Weirwood boat that was over turned and petrified to stone. So if he stole Nagga's (The Trees) lving fire. Than this might explain where the fire power side got started.

I know alot of people wil bring up the meteor. As far as i can prove though, it's just a meteor. No more. Probably was enough for the First Dayne to forge Dawn of it (I still think he used Weirwood to add the Carbon to the Iron to get the Magical Steel glows like milk glass, just like the BlackGate) but there couldn't have been near enough to build Asshai and Yeen completely of the meteor. Not even the meteor that destroyed the dinosaurs would have left that much iron behind. Asshai is so big you can fit K.L., Old Town, Volantis, and Qarth inside. That's friggin huge!!! So i dont think the meteor actually plays into the Ice or Fire magic. That's just me though. No interconnected stories or anything needed  

[falcotron]

In another thread, @Edgar Allen Poemont brought up a few more water references, like Dany's vision of the Trident becoming a torrent when fire and ice fight. And then there's the Gods Eye, a lake where the First Men and the Children signed the Pact.

Over there, I suggested that Planetos's classical elements might be a fire-ice-water triangle rather than our familiar fire-earth-water-air square. Three elements lets you have balance without stasis, through the usual rock-paper-scissors effect: fire melts ice, ice freezes water, water quenches fire. I'm not so sure the triangle idea works, but it might be worth some thought.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, falcotron said:

In another thread, @Edgar Allen Poemont brought up a few more water references, like Dany's vision of the Trident becoming a torrent when fire and ice fight. And then there's the Gods Eye, a lake where the First Men and the Children signed the Pact.

Over there, I suggested that Planetos's classical elements might be a fire-ice-water triangle rather than our familiar fire-earth-water-air square. Three elements lets you have balance without stasis, through the usual rock-paper-scissors effect: fire melts ice, ice freezes water, water quenches fire. I'm not so sure the triangle idea works, but it might be worth some thought.

Yea the idea of a Ice-water-fire trinity or powers wasn't really made clear in the OP or Title, but now that i see where your trying to go with this, it's a very interesting idea. The Rhoynar were said to use water magic which i thought was pretty cool but just associated it with Ice magic and all that as Ice and Water are the same element just different phases. Where as fire is something else all together and not really an element but could be associated with oxygen as fire is the rapid oxidization of matter in the exothermic chemical process of combustion.

Though interestingly there is water in fire. Sounds silly but it's true and part of what makes up an actual flame along with soot and carbon dioxide.

Little off topic i always thought a cool magical item for a fantasy story would be something that exist at triple point in our natural environment. Which would make it seem very magical indeed for anyone unknowing of what was happening.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

Falcotron, thanks for leading me here. This is definitely a better thread for me to start throwing my ideas out into the mix. Unfortunately I have to work today but I will be back later tonight to explore these ideas. You've given me some nuggets to chew on.

[falcotron]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea the idea of a Ice-water-fire trinity or powers wasn't really made clear in the OP or Title, but now that i see where your trying to go with this, it's a very interesting idea.

Well, I didn't want to start off with the idea of a triangle and then try to prove it, I just wanted to explore what we know, start with that, and see where it leads us.

But obviously there was just too little content in my initial post to kickstart anything interesting. 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Rhoynar were said to use water magic which i thought was pretty cool but just associated it with Ice magic and all that as Ice and Water are the same element just different phases. Where as fire is something else all together and not really an element but could be associated with oxygen as fire is the rapid oxidization of matter in the exothermic chemical process of combustion.

This is really the problem. From a modern perspective, ice and water are the same element, and fire is a process that involves almost any oxidizable compound and oxygen, while from a classical perspective, water and fire are two of the four elements and ice is just water trapped in earth. And obviously GRRM knows both of those perspectives, and expects his readers to know both.

And we don't even really know whether ice and fire are classical elements of GRRM's world, or a more Zoroastrian-style duality, or part of a Chinese-like system that categorizes energy instead of matter, etc. In fact, I'd suspect that different people in the story interpret things differently—to the red priests, it's a duality (because everything is a duality), while to the Children it's… well, I don't know, but probably not the same thing.

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Though interestingly there is water in fire. Sounds silly but it's true and part of what makes up an actual flame along with soot and carbon dioxide.

And of course burning hydrogen gives off no soot or anything else, just water vapor. (That's actually why it's called "hydrogen"—it means "water-maker".)

There's a story about this in one of the post-Lovecraft "Cthulhu Mythos" anthologies. It takes place in Averoigne (a slightly fictionalized version of medieval Auvergne, from Clark Ashton Smith's stories), with a young priest investigating an alchemist who's moved into a shack in the forest. The alchemist learns to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen through acid reactions, centuries before Cavendish did it in the real world, and uses the hydrogen gas to produce "the purest flame". Of course that goes badly for him, this being a Mythos story. He apparently ends up summoning Cthugha or his flame creatures, who reward him for his efforts by turning his hydrogen flame into a fusion reaction, but we're not sure, because the flash of light that vaporizes half the forest is the last thing the priest sees before it blinds him.

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Little off topic i always thought a cool magical item for a fantasy story would be something that exist at triple point in our natural environment. Which would make it seem very magical indeed for anyone unknowing of what was happening.

Even gallium would seem pretty magical—it's a solid metal at room temperature, but when you pick it up, it melts into a mercury-like liquid. But yeah, it would be even more magical if its triple point were closer to 1 atm so it would also evaporate when left in the sun.

Also, you'd want something that clumps better than gallium, so instead of it being spread all over the earth's crust, there'd be a smaller number of great big deposits of it, more like iron, or at least mercury.

But if you really want to give your characters something fun, what about a big crystal shard of uranium hexaflouride? I think all of its states should be reachable with modest alchemist equipment (64°C and just under 2 atm). And it does all kinds of other fun* things. For example, get one of your thralls to pick it up with his bare hands, and the surface will start bubbling and emitting a cloud of toxic HF gas. And if your fantasy world has a lost technological past, there should be tons of it lying around in barrels to be discovered in nuclear waste dumps.

---

* By a loose definition of "fun" that probably applies more to someone like Euron or Qyburn than to your typical medieval fantasy character…

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, falcotron said:

Well, I didn't want to start off with the idea of a triangle and then try to prove it, I just wanted to explore what we know, start with that, and see where it leads us.

But obviously there was just too little content in my initial post to kickstart anything interesting. 

This is really the problem. From a modern perspective, ice and water are the same element, and fire is a process that involves almost any oxidizable compound and oxygen, while from a classical perspective, water and fire are two of the four elements and ice is just water trapped in earth. And obviously GRRM knows both of those perspectives, and expects his readers to know both.

And we don't even really know whether ice and fire are classical elements of GRRM's world, or a more Zoroastrian-style duality, or part of a Chinese-like system that categorizes energy instead of matter, etc. In fact, I'd suspect that different people in the story interpret things differently—to the red priests, it's a duality (because everything is a duality), while to the Children it's… well, I don't know, but probably not the same thing.

And of course burning hydrogen gives off no soot or anything else, just water vapor. (That's actually why it's called "hydrogen"—it means "water-maker".)

There's a story about this in one of the post-Lovecraft "Cthulhu Mythos" anthologies. It takes place in Averoigne (a slightly fictionalized version of medieval Auvergne, from Clark Ashton Smith's stories), with a young priest investigating an alchemist who's moved into a shack in the forest. The alchemist learns to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen through acid reactions, centuries before Cavendish did it in the real world, and uses the hydrogen gas to produce "the purest flame". Of course that goes badly for him, this being a Mythos story. He apparently ends up summoning Cthugha or his flame creatures, who reward him for his efforts by turning his hydrogen flame into a fusion reaction, but we're not sure, because the flash of light that vaporizes half the forest is the last thing the priest sees before it blinds him.

Even gallium would seem pretty magical—it's a solid metal at room temperature, but when you pick it up, it melts into a mercury-like liquid. But yeah, it would be even more magical if its triple point were closer to 1 atm so it would also evaporate when left in the sun.

Also, you'd want something that clumps better than gallium, so instead of it being spread all over the earth's crust, there'd be a smaller number of great big deposits of it, more like iron, or at least mercury.

But if you really want to give your characters something fun, what about a big crystal shard of uranium hexaflouride? I think all of its states should be reachable with modest alchemist equipment (64°C and just under 2 atm). And it does all kinds of other fun* things. For example, get one of your thralls to pick it up with his bare hands, and the surface will start bubbling and emitting a cloud of toxic HF gas. And if your fantasy world has a lost technological past, there should be tons of it lying around in barrels to be discovered in nuclear waste dumps.

---

* By a loose definition of "fun" that probably applies more to someone like Euron or Qyburn than to your typical medieval fantasy character…

That's an interesting point. I very much wonder the children thoughts on Rhllor or The Drowned God are. 

You know well that as far as the ancient legends go, im of the believers that their was a third race of aquatic beings. I think this made it's way into Azor Ahai who seems a mix of fire and ice or fire and water rather. Almost like Norse Giants. Those theirs are Fire, Ice and Earth. Martin could very well be working different ideas together. I honestly wish we knew more about the Sarnori and a lil more about the Rhoynar. 

The Idea of three powers i find very interesting. Rhllor- fire, Great Other- Ice, The Deep One-Water. 

There may even be 4! Look at the Naath god and Garth (who may or may not be of the GEOTD) who is described as a god who dies every year to be reborn in the spring. So these two would represent the Earth Giants, who sound different possibly that the other Giants.

Which has always made me wonder about the Last Giants sang about, even though as Jon mentions, there are giants. To which Ygrett tells him he knows nothing. So the Giants sound like they have different kinds.

 

I laughed way to hard at that last part, i have a dark sense of humor hahah But definitely agree about that all and would be really cool to see in a deep story like ASOIAF or something else.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

This topic has me tied in knots of an almost Meerenese nature. My initial thought about Ice and Fire in opposition to each other creating Water in a sense, kind of came up when I was reading a good thread on repetitions of  the seven versus three with two left standing scene, that we see in Eddard's dream and how it kind of reverberates throughout the series. So I started to wonder if you take those three things and reduce them just to their elemental forces are they the root of GRRM's triumvirate. I'm not sure when it crept in, but I've had a nagging suspicion for awhile that the epic showdown we have been expecting between Ice and Fire might or even needs to result in compromise and balance between the two. A Long Day seems equally as destructive to Planetos as a Long Night, in my opinion and I wonder if maybe the Doom was a reverse of the Battle for the Dawn. Also, the dragon does have three heads, but even before we get to who those heads are, can we figure out what they are and maybe what they need to do? Are the three heads Ice, Fire and Water blended in a stasis when joined together, much like Falcotron's analogy with the Rock, Paper and Scissors? Do we have a  three of R'hollor/Fire , the Other/Ice and the Drowned God/Water and do those three represent the forces of Fire, Ice and Water in essence? Well, it sort of works, but not really, because those three all seem to be opposed each to the other two, not to mention, they also all seem to have inherently dualistic natures in conflict within themselves too. The Drowned God fighting the Storm God. The Others fighting the Old Gods. R'hollor, a god of light and shadow. And to make it more complex, the three elements individually contain an internal dichotomy, in that each is both a creative and a destructive force and that dichotomy, I think is clearly a  major theme within the series and is reflected in numerous characters to greater and lesser degrees.  So from there, I guess,  my three primary elements start to look more like a six; Good Ice/ Bad Ice, Good Fire/ Bad Fire, Good Water/ Bad Water. But I still wondered, if I put my pet choices for the three heads of the dragon; Jon, Dany and Tyrion, under just the three basic categories of Ice, Fire and Water, do I get anything? Well, in a sense maybe, but it's more of the same dualisms and even at the most basic level of association, we have conflict again. Jon is certainly Ice, but if R+L=J, he's also Fire. Dany is certainly Fire, the dragons prove that, but she's also I think, strongly associated with Water, being Stormborn and all and the Queen of a lovely city on the Bay. Tyrion, I think, is strongly associated with water via the Casterly Rock sewers and the familial legacy of the Rains of Castamere, but also very clearly a warrior of Fire. I think Davos' sons would second me on that association.

 Again, I was really just trying to see if stripping them to the most basic associations would help and it was at this point, I ran into a major roadblock on my way to a balance. The three can't become one without one force disrupting the balance if they each contain two and need to both of the other to complete the missing third. That is even before I thought I might attempt to split those three basic elements into their yin and yang aspects. So unless there are more elements we can combine with the primary three to create a more satisfying blend what do we do?. Introduce Air to the mix, like Falcotron mentions the Greeks did? I considered that when I started musing about other characters in terms of the three. For instance, I saw Bran fitting nicely into an Ice/Water combination via Stark/Tully blood and the greenseer/Children of the Forest for a Water connection, but he also is very much associated with flying/Air. Well, when Ice meets Fire we get some Air and some Water. And when Fire meets Water we get Air and Stone, if it's volcanic. When Water meets Stone we get Earth. Earth shaped by Fire and Ice. I'm not sure where I'm going with all of this but I think there is something to it. The interplay between all of these forces I think is somehow integral. I like the Chinese idea of elemental energy not matter, too, Falcotron. It lends itself interestingly to magic, I think. All of those five energies are repeated motifs throughout the series as well and seemingly all with some form of power linked to them. I'm wonder if the true Prince(ess) that was Promised will be the one most able to integrate and harness all the elemental powers. Ice, Fire, Water, Stone, Air, Wood, Iron, Steel, Blood. Where is he taking us!? GRRM, no wonder it takes so long! 

 I can't believe I picked up a copy of AGoT in a super market one day and thought, "Hmm, I wonder what all the fuss is about. It's all over the media. People rave about the show. I used to love fantasy when I was younger. It's probably silly but I'll give it a try."

[Lollygag]

On 9/23/2017 at 6:31 AM, falcotron said:

I'm wondering whether there's any evidence, other than from Melisandre, that ice is actually the opposite of fire in ASoIaF.

Of course the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire", and it's all about a climactic showdown between the elements of ice and fire, right? That's certainly Melisandre's view. R'hllor, the god of truth and light and goodness, is also the god of fire; anyone who isn't fighting for R'hllor is fighting for the Great Other, the god of dark and evil, and also ice. But when has Melisandre ever been right about her interpretation?

Are fire and ice really opposites in the first place?

Historically, the best weapon against dragons hasn't been ice, but Rhoynar water magic. Or maybe rainstorms.*

In most real-life old-world cultures,** the classical elements are fire-earth-water-air. Ice isn't an element at all—in Greek terms, it's earth with some water trapped inside. In Aristotle's terms, fire is hot and dry, earth is cold and dry, water is cold and wet, and air is hot and wet.*** Water is the opposite of fire—matching the Rhoynar.

And water isn't any friendlier to ice than it is to fire. (The Others can't cross water.)

Ice is the purest form of water. To be liquid or vapor water, you need some fire added, so non-solid water would be a corrupted form of or a combination of both ice and fire to whatever extent.

The Drowned God is all about liquid water and the Ironborn culture has some interesting fire influences for being so water-based. They do not sow which sounds a lot like dragons plant no trees. Iron is also linked to fire. Krakens sound like dragons of the sea and krakens are linked to volcanoes in myth.

As for the rest, I agree it's confusing.

I'm a bit more about Ice Preserves and Fire Destroys these days. Preservation and Destruction is the cycle of life and cycle of the seasons. The story is dealing with wights who are outside the cycle of life and we're dealing with erratic seasons. It also plays into major themes of the book. 1000s of years of the stagnated feudal system is preservation run amok. War is destruction. The story makes a bit more sense when I view it through the prism of preservation and destruction and how they can become imbalanced.

[hiemal]

I think it is interesting that the element of fire is often associated with darkness- R'hlorr as the god of flame and shadow, for example, and Balerion and Drogon's black flame threaded through with red- and ice with light and reflections- the bright eyes of the Others described as stars and their bones like milkglass.

[Lollygag]

So I’m just talking out loud here and these observations are empirical, not scientific obvi...

Ice is light-colored when pure and reflects light. Things touched by ice turn light, or are at least coated with it. Light also contains the Others. Maybe the Others and what’s around them are light because they’ve consumed the darkness around them. Light maybe contains them because there is no darkness to consume, no darkness to breath so to speak.

Things burned by fire turn dark. Fire consumes light from the things it burns. Fire is contained by dark like being inside the earth or in a volcano. Maybe being underground and in the darkness contains fire because there is no light to consume or breath..

Few places in the known world are as remote as Asshai, and fewer are as forbidding. Travelers tell us that the city is built entirely of black stone: halls, hovels, temples, palaces, streets, walls, bazaars, all. Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike. The nights are very black in Asshai, all agree, and even the brightest days of summer are somehow grey and gloomy.

Too much fire, and things turn grey and gloomy as the fire is consuming/breathing the light. Too much ice, and things turn extraordinarily bright and white as the darkness is consumed.

Plants consume carbon dioxide and give off oxygen. Animals consume oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. If balanced, then great. If not, then there’s big problems.

So if fire becomes too strong, it makes things dark which begins fuel to the Others. If the Others become too strong, it leaves too much light which feeds fire, hence why balance and the yin yang relationship is important?

 

[falcotron]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think this made it's way into Azor Ahai who seems a mix of fire and ice or fire and water rather. Almost like Norse Giants.

The Norse giants are an interesting point.

Many people think of frost giants as opposites of the first giants, but that's not how they're written at all in the myths. The fire giants live in a land of lava and seek to set all the other worlds aflame and destroy everything. The frost giants were born, just like humans, from the first meeting of ice and fire, they live in a land not that different from Midgard, and the only reason they keep trying to invade Midgard and Asgard is to get revenge for what their descendants (led by Odin) did to them.

You could maybe fit that to ASoIaF if you flipped everything, with the Others being icy mist giants from Niflheim rather than frost giants from Jötunheim, while the Valyrians or dragons or whatever are not fire giants from Muspelheim but some kind of "maybe a bit too warm" giants from Jötunheim. But that seems like a bit of a stretch. Especially since Discworld already flipped the same myth in parodying it.

Anyway, in the Norse myths, you could say the song of ice and fire is either life or water. The first meeting of Niflheim and Muspelheim in Ginnungagap created Ymir, born out of melting ice, who gave birth to humans and Jötnar, and whose blood became the seas of the world. The last meeting is Ragnarök, where Surtr attacks everyone with his sword made of living fire, sets Midgard aflame, then tears asunder the worlds, flooding the earth and leaving only two humans as survivors.

[falcotron]

18 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Well, in a sense maybe, but it's more of the same dualisms and even at the most basic level of association, we have conflict again. Jon is certainly Ice, but if R+L=J, he's also Fire. Dany is certainly Fire, the dragons prove that, but she's also I think, strongly associated with Water, being Stormborn and all and the Queen of a lovely city on the Bay. Tyrion, I think, is strongly associated with water via the Casterly Rock sewers and the familial legacy of the Rains of Castamere, but also very clearly a warrior of Fire. I think Davos' sons would second me on that association.

I hadn't thought of that, but yeah, that's a problem for the rock-paper-scissors triangle paradigm. It should be ice-fire, fire-water, water-ice, but instead you get ice-fire, fire-water, water-fire. And I can't see how you could stretch Tyrion to be ice. Of course that could just mean that you're looking at the wrong third character. But who could be water-ice? Bran, as you suggest later, might fit that.

Ultimately, this may point to something simpler—it's not that any particular element schema is right, but just that all of the dualisms are wrong. Fire-ice, water-storms, etc. are all ways to simplify the world to make it more understandable, but they're so far off that they actually just make it harder to understand. In the real world, neither the Greeks nor the Chinese are even close to right, because the world is made of 92 different elements bound together by forms of energy the ancients couldn't even begin to understand. Imagine trying to explain the QFT basis of chemistry to Aristotle, or the weak nuclear force to Zou Yan.

In the ASoIaF world, there's magic, not just science, but why should that make things easier to understand? If anything, magic is supposed to be even more incomprehensible (at least under "less Campbell, more Lovecraft" writers like GRRM).

[falcotron]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm a bit more about Ice Preserves and Fire Destroys these days. Preservation and Destruction is the cycle of life and cycle of the seasons. The story is dealing with wights who are outside the cycle of life and we're dealing with erratic seasons. It also plays into major themes of the book. 1000s of years of the stagnated feudal system is preservation run amok. War is destruction. The story makes a bit more sense when I view it through the prism of preservation and destruction and how they can become imbalanced.

That's an interesting viewpoint.

And when you look at ASoIaF as being partly influenced by, and partly a reaction against, LotR, the elves, who are all about preservation, are the ultimate good guys, but we know how terrible it would be if Galadriel ruled the world, and we know that the elves had to leave the world for humanity to achieve its destiny in the fourth age and beyond.

But that means that ice and fire is really just order and chaos a la Poul Anderson, Michael Moorcock, or Roger Zelazny in disguise. The big revelation that order can be bad too was a pretty cool thing for new wave fantasy, but after 40 years of people playing AD&D and wanting to be chaotic good, what's left to say there?

@Lollygag adds some more interesting ideas that seem like they should syncrhonize with this, but I think I need to digest them before commenting.

4 hours ago, hiemal said:

I think it is interesting that the element of fire is often associated with darkness- R'hlorr as the god of flame and shadow, for example, and Balerion and Drogon's black flame threaded through with red- and ice with light and reflections- the bright eyes of the Others described as stars and their bones like milkglass.

Well, you can make a distinction between shadow and darkness. Shadow is the darkness brought by light, while the darkness brought by the absence of light is different. Of course if you think about things scientifically, you're just making a local-global distinction, not a fundamental one.

Anyway, I'm still not sure if we're supposed to see Melisandre's embrace of shadow magic as her making this distinction between shadow and darkness, or as her embracing the dark side so she can use it against itself. Either way, I think we're supposed to see that Melisandre is getting it wrong, I'm just not sure what her thoughts even are on this question.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

The Norse giants are an interesting point.

Many people think of frost giants as opposites of the first giants, but that's not how they're written at all in the myths. The fire giants live in a land of lava and seek to set all the other worlds aflame and destroy everything. The frost giants were born, just like humans, from the first meeting of ice and fire, they live in a land not that different from Midgard, and the only reason they keep trying to invade Midgard and Asgard is to get revenge for what their descendants (led by Odin) did to them.

You could maybe fit that to ASoIaF if you flipped everything, with the Others being icy mist giants from Niflheim rather than frost giants from Jötunheim, while the Valyrians or dragons or whatever are not fire giants from Muspelheim but some kind of "maybe a bit too warm" giants from Jötunheim. But that seems like a bit of a stretch. Especially since Discworld already flipped the same myth in parodying it.

Anyway, in the Norse myths, you could say the song of ice and fire is either life or water. The first meeting of Niflheim and Muspelheim in Ginnungagap created Ymir, born out of melting ice, who gave birth to humans and Jötnar, and whose blood became the seas of the world. The last meeting is Ragnarök, where Surtr attacks everyone with his sword made of living fire, sets Midgard aflame, then tears asunder the worlds, flooding the earth and leaving only two humans as survivors.

Well im not big on looking for answers in real world myths or history, but it's hard not to see some definite influence from Norse Mythology. Especially with the Fire and Ice Unions and some of the stories. The Battle of the Dawn could be his similar Ragnorak inspired war. The reoccurring unions of Ice and Fire i think definitely happened in Asoiaf though. Those Mountain Gaints though give me wonder about Garth and the Naath god though in accordance to the Great Other and Rhllor.

Though in the text Dany sees a man wreathed in flames and a wolf dancing. So there's Rhllor, but whos the wolf? Old Gods?

 

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

I'm enjoying this thread quite a bit. I think one of the reasons I consider ASoIaF to be a masterwork is the sheer number of approaches you can take analyzing it and always seem to find something that enriches the experience, definitely and maybe some understanding, hopefully. I've read historical comparisons, mythological, sociological, political, etc. right on down to the craziest crackpot theories and always come away with a profound (for me anyway) "Hmm... or Wow... or I don't know but.. Hmmm...  

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Ice is light-colored when pure and reflects light. Things touched by ice turn light, or are at least coated with it. Light also contains the Others. Maybe the Others and what’s around them are light because they’ve consumed the darkness around them. Light maybe contains them because there is no darkness to consume, no darkness to breath so to speak.

 

Things burned by fire turn dark. Fire consumes light from the things it burns. Fire is contained by dark like being inside the earth or in a volcano. Maybe being underground and in the darkness contains fire because there is no light to consume or breath..

I really like this because it reminds me of that dualism inherent in those elements again and it really plays into our expectations of what Fire and Ice may represent in the larger scheme of things. It's almost as if Fire is Dark Light and Ice is Light Dark.  I see that concept in Falcotron's Galadriel example. She would have made herself the Sauron of Light if she had taken his power. It plays out in a much more complex scenario in ASoIaF, in my opinion though, because the characters are on way more of a spectrum between good and bad and also, I think, between the forces of Ice and Fire, physically, geographically, spiritually etc.. Black and white make grey but which side is which if they are mirrored?. We've been set up in so many ways to expect one force to be good and one to be bad with an epic confrontation between the two. Will it be Jon or will it be Dany? or Will it be both or will it be neither? Does life spring from the eternal struggle between both elements or, as I tried in my last post to explore, does it spring from a balance between the two as represented by the forces of Water. 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm a bit more about Ice Preserves and Fire Destroys these days. Preservation and Destruction is the cycle of life and cycle of the seasons. The story is dealing with wights who are outside the cycle of life and we're dealing with erratic seasons. It also plays into major themes of the book. 1000s of years of the stagnated feudal system is preservation run amok. War is destruction. The story makes a bit more sense when I view it through the prism of preservation and destruction and how they can become imbalanced

But Fire also sustains life during winter and Ice sustains life during summer. In my head, I'm always putting Jon in those Ice vaults and Dany turning Dorne into a block of obsidian when I read the Ice Preserves and Fire Destroys line. I've also wondered for awhile if the three heads were destined to be three separate rulers locked geographically and archetypically. One being the archetype of Ice, one of Water and one of Fire. One possibly ruling the North and the Vale and Iron Islands, one the Riverlands,  Stormlands, Westerlands and one the Reach and Dorne,  as Godheads, similar to Frank Herbert's Dune, but as a triumvirate to balance, not a singular all powerful despot.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Though in the text Dany sees a man wreathed in flames and a wolf dancing

This one has always made my wheels spin too. From my first read onwards, I'm always thinking, "What is that wolf doing dancing in a tent where dragons are being born?!"

[falcotron]

21 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Ice is light-colored when pure and reflects light. Things touched by ice turn light, or are at least coated with it. Light also contains the Others. Maybe the Others and what’s around them are light because they’ve consumed the darkness around them. Light maybe contains them because there is no darkness to consume, no darkness to breath so to speak.

Things burned by fire turn dark. Fire consumes light from the things it burns. Fire is contained by dark like being inside the earth or in a volcano. Maybe being underground and in the darkness contains fire because there is no light to consume or breath..

It's interesting to try to look at these ideas from a pre-scientific conception.

In Greek natural philosophy, fire doesn't consume things, it's trapped inside of all living things, and dead things (you die when you lose your air, but the fire is still trapped), and released from them by heat. Logs (and corpses) release their trapped fire and turn into charcoal (and bone). Living things release their air first, then their fire. (That's why people stop screaming and moving at the same time, but continue to burn after that.)

So, fire is the light inside. Releasing it by burning turns things into charcoal. Lava in a volcano glows red like fire, but eventually it loses its fire and turns into black stone. Metal in a forge glows red like fire, but eventually it loses its fire and turns to grey steel. So, how are the Others pale white, with bright blue eyes, if they have no fire inside?

I think those kinds of thoughts lead to Melisandre-style dualism. There must be some opposite of fire—not just water, but something that's so cold that it burns—for the Others to be made of. Just like there must be a darkness that goes beyond shadow, beyond even the absence of light, an actual opposite of light, for the Long Night to be made of.

But that probably isn't actually true. The Others probably aren't any colder than the ice and mists around them, and the Long Night probably is just the absence of sunlight.

[AlaskanSandman]

21 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

This one has always made my wheels spin too. From my first read onwards, I'm always thinking, "What is that wolf doing dancing in a tent where dragons are being born?!"

Hahaha exactly!! I have a thread talking about that hatching incident and no one has brought it up yet but it's definitely interesting!!! I can't help but wonder if it's the Old Gods? and the other is Rhllor? But is this the only two their are? or the only 2 in the tent? or the only two she mentions?

But why indeed would the Old God's possibly be there when dragons are being hatched??? Or as we talk about in my thread, not hatched atm, but the spirits of Drogo, Viserys, and Rhaego being bound to the eggs possibly. Though i think at least one egg was seeded before. The tent incident just bound the last two, and more importantly, bound Dany's Blood to the Dragons. Something lost among the Targaryens since the Dance of Dragons. The hatching/awakening happened during the pyre. So thus we have dragons not only reawakened, but bound by blood to a new line. 

Sorry, a lil off topic.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

I really wish I had more time to repond to this thread tonight. It really gets me looking at a lot of interesting approaches to how GRRM's use of elemental Ice and Fire as an overarching construct and how his thematic structure seems to grow from them. I moved away a bit from trying to create that balance between my triplet of Ice, Fire and Water and how it relates to characters.  They tend to lead to so many other associations and I suppose preferences on my part too. So I decided again to go basic and just focus on his use of color and see what comes to mind. Taking the triplet, I just started putting the most commonly associated colors in the story with their respective element. Ice has white and blue. Water has green and brown. Fire has red and black.  There are probably more but those seem the most common and I know white is really the absence of color and black the combination of all color, but they are textual. I think it's really interesting how many associations you start making with just those to start and I think I'd like to do more reading with that idea in mind. But for brevity's sake, I'll throw one out there that made stop and think, "How did I never notice that before!" It's cool too because it's tied to the original comment I made that led Falcotron to suggest this thread. In Dany's vision of the battle between Ice and Fire the Trident becomes a torrent. The three forks of the Trident are of course the Blue, the Green and the Red. Has anyone read any theories on that here? I've read a number of good ones that focus on color and its significance in a lot of ways but never one focused on the Trident. I'm intrigued by those three colors forming that pivotal river.