KendrikDmer84 Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 I keep thinking about how Sandor Clegane treats Sansa, gruff but not violent, coarse but also, sometimes, sweet. He seems almost protective of her many times. Anyone ever wonder why? Does he harbor feelings for her? Is there a Clegane sister we haven't heard about? Does he just hate Joff's cruelty to a young girl? Does any of it matter? Would love to hear any theories or thoughts, as unlikely as it is to be important to the overall plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 Well, it definitely matters for Sandor's character arc, and for Sansa's, and for GRRM's general theme of investigating the meaning of knighthood, and for the most blatant demonstration of the unreliability of PoV narrators in the story. For example: Sandor grew up wanting to be a knight. When his brother burned and scarred him horribly for playing with a knight toy, he gave up wanting to be a knight, but he's learned realized that being a knight and living up to the ideals of knighthood have nothing to do with each other. At first, his response to that was nihilistic "screw knights, they're all as bad as me", but it's gradually been becoming "screw knights, I can be better than them". I don't think he hated Joffrey's cruelty to a young girl, so much as he hated the fact that his job required him to serve the kind of guy who'd be (pointlessly) cruel to a young girl. At any rate, that wasn't enough to shake him up and get him to change his path (it took the fire at the Battle of the Blackwater to do that), but it was the first sign that he was going to. Compare and contrast Sandor's story to Brienne's, Jaime's, and Barristan's, and there's enough there to write pages about the meaning of knighthood, honor, and chivalry in Westeros (and medieval cultures in general, and successor ideas in post-medieval cultures). Whether it'll matter in the plot after the first five books, I don't know. Sandor's knighthood story may end with him becoming the gravedigger, and Sansa's outgrown her naivete, so they may never meet again. Then again, they might, and there are even some fans who ship them as an endgame romance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 48 minutes ago, falcotron said: there are even some fans who ship them as an endgame romance. Oh, yes! "Sansan" is a writing genre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Фейсал Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 I can't see them ending up together no matter how much I dig Sandor - I think they'll meet again though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 6 hours ago, KendrikDmer84 said: I keep thinking about how Sandor Clegane treats Sansa, gruff but not violent, coarse but also, sometimes, sweet. He seems almost protective of her many times. Anyone ever wonder why? Does he harbor feelings for her? Is there a Clegane sister we haven't heard about? Does he just hate Joff's cruelty to a young girl? Does any of it matter? Would love to hear any theories or thoughts, as unlikely as it is to be important to the overall plot. As @falcotron suggests, Sandor is exhibit A in the George's exploration of knighthood, chivalry, and honor, and the horrors of war. The Hound and Sandor also fits in the George's theme of seeing what we expect to see and mistaken identities. I think Sandor has a genuine attraction to Sansa, but his affection for Arya might have more to do with the sister he lost, the one that Eddard tells died under mysterious circumstances, when Eddard is considering Gregor's monstrous reputation. In my opinion, Sandor is one of the most compelling characters in ASOIAF. I expect we will see him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Фейсал said: I can't see them ending up together no matter how much I dig Sandor - I think they'll meet again though. I'm certainly hoping it happens soon in the show. Any show stuff belongs n the show forum. The book forum is a safe place for those who don't want to know or hear about the mummer's version. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 6 hours ago, falcotron said: Whether it'll matter in the plot after the first five books, I don't know. Sandor's knighthood story may end with him becoming the gravedigger, and Sansa's outgrown her naivete, so they may never meet again. Then again, they might, and there are even some fans who ship them as an endgame romance. Well, the author seems to also have a soft spot for the two of them hisself with the whole beauty and the beast thing, if which he is also a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 10 hours ago, KendrikDmer84 said: Anyone ever wonder why? There are literally thousands of long, contentious and repetitive conversations just on this one site dealing with this topic. Consider checking out a few! (You probably don't need to see more than a few... after awhile, they're all the same.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Фейсал Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Any show stuff belongs n the show forum. The book forum is a safe place for those who don't want to know or hear about the mummer's version. Thank you. God damn, really sorry. Edited it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 34 minutes ago, Фейсал said: God damn, really sorry. Edited it out. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendrikDmer84 Posted September 25, 2017 Author Share Posted September 25, 2017 I didn't realize it had been addressed before. I'm new to the forum and have been reading the archived theories mostly. I loved that he ended up as the gravedigger, even if not super obviously as it wasn't specified. I think (and hope) that something will draw him back into the rest of society. Perhaps hearing about what his brother has become, as he has such an abiding hatred for him and may feel cheated in some way that he "escaped" death. I had forgotten that Ned mentioned a Clegane sister. That makes things a bit clearer, I think. Gregor being who and what he is, I have no doubt he killed the sister for some imagined/minor slight, considering what he did to Sandor for.playing with a toy. Thanks all for engaging with me. I'll attempt to look up some of the other threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Фейсал Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 I think him championing the faith against Cersei is certainly a possibility. Wasn't he her guard dog at first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, Фейсал said: I think him championing the faith against Cersei is certainly a possibility. Wasn't he her guard dog at first? Joffrey's dog at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lykos Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Joffrey's dog at first. Nope, (I must say, since I have the memory of an Elephant )my dear old friend. Sansa in Game Quote Joffrey laughed. "He's my mother's dog, in truth. She has set him to guard me, and so he does." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, KendrikDmer84 said: I didn't realize it had been addressed before. I'm new to the forum and have been reading the archived theories mostly. I loved that he ended up as the gravedigger, even if not super obviously as it wasn't specified. I think (and hope) that something will draw him back into the rest of society. Perhaps hearing about what his brother has become, as he has such an abiding hatred for him and may feel cheated in some way that he "escaped" death. I had forgotten that Ned mentioned a Clegane sister. That makes things a bit clearer, I think. Gregor being who and what he is, I have no doubt he killed the sister for some imagined/minor slight, considering what he did to Sandor for.playing with a toy. Thanks all for engaging with me. I'll attempt to look up some of the other threads. Many, including me, think the brothers will fight... Quote Near the kennels a group of men-at-arms were fighting a pair of dogs. Tyrion stopped long enough to see the smaller dog tear half the face off the larger one, and earned a few coarse laughs by observing that the loser now resembled Sandor Clegane. Tyrion II, Storm I suppose this foreshadows the eventual showdown between the brothers Clegane. It looks like Sandor will lose, but perhaps expose Gregor for the undead monster thst he has become. And there is this where Sandor tells us about his intention to kill Gregor... Quote "Gregor never knew what he had, did he? He couldn't have, or he would have dragged you back kicking and screaming to King's Landing and dumped you in Cersei's lap. Oh, that's bloody sweet. I'll be sure and tell him that, before I cut his heart out." Arya IX, Storm But perhaps the thing that was Gregor will slay Sandor because Sandor's actions suggest that he has no intention of killing his brother and thus he will lose the eventual showdown... Quote It all happened so fast. The Knight of Flowers was shouting for his own sword as Ser Gregor knocked his squire aside and made a grab for the reins of his horse. The mare scented blood and reared. Loras Tyrell kept his seat, but barely. Ser Gregor swung his sword, a savage two-handed blow that took the boy in the chest and knocked him from the saddle. The courser dashed away in panic as Ser Loras lay stunned in the dirt. But as Gregor lifted his sword for the killing blow, a rasping voice warned, "Leave him be," and a steel-clad hand wrenched him away from the boy. The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it, and for what seemed an eternity the two brothers stood hammering at each other as a dazed Loras Tyrell was helped to safety. Thrice Ned saw Ser Gregor aim savage blows at the hound's-head helmet, yet not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother's unprotected face. It was the king's voice that put an end to it . . . the king's voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. "STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!" The Hound went to one knee. Ser Gregor's blow cut air, and at last he came to his senses. He dropped his sword and glared at Robert, surrounded by his Kingsguard and a dozen other knights and guardsmen. Wordlessly, he turned and strode off, shoving past Barristan Selmy. "Let him go," Robert said, and as quickly as that, it was over. Eddard VII, Game Sandor actively avoided trying to kill his brother at his own peril. He expressed an intention to kill his brother in Arya IX, Storm. But nothing changed in their relation in the interim. Sandor had no more reason to kill Gregor than when he actively avoided trying to kill his brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Фейсал Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 I don't think that means Gregor will win, the dog fight bit I mean. The smaller dog [smaller brother, Sandor] tears the face of the older brother [Gregor]. The bit about him resembling the hound now likely refers to the monstrosity Gregor becomes; even more terrifying than his brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lykos Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Sandor actively avoided trying to kill his brother at his own peril. He expressed an intention to kill his brother in Arya IX, Storm. But nothing changed in their relation in the interim. Sandor had no more reason to kill Gregor than when he actively avoided trying to kill his brother. I believe that Sandor wants his brother to realise what he has done to him (and their mysterious sister), he deems death too merciful for Gregor (, just as Arya did for Sandor?). I agree that there needs to be a climax to their relationship, but I expect something unexpected, like Sandor forgiving his brother and mercifully releasing him from Qyburn's mind control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 Just now, Фейсал said: I don't think that means Gregor will win, the dog fight bit I mean. The smaller dog [smaller brother, Sandor] tears the face of the older brother [Gregor]. The bit about him resembling the hound now likely refers to the monstrosity Gregor becomes; even more terrifying than his brother. I like your conclusion better than mine. And I do suspect that Sandor might fight in the Battle for the Dawn... Quote "If this Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Lykos said: I believe that Sandor wants his brother to realise what he has done to him (and their mysterious sister), he deems death too merciful for Gregor (, just as Arya did for Sandor?). I agree that there needs to be a climax to their relationship, but I expect something unexpected, like Sandor forgiving his brother and mercifully releasing him from Qyburn's mind control. If Sandor realizes that Gregor is already dead, Sandor sending a cut at his brother's face the next time round might be a mercy... hey wait a minute, a mercy... Wasn't that what Sandor begged from Arya? Perhaps he will give the gift of mercy to his brother. I am telling you, Sandor is an amazing character with even more potential than we have already seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Lykos said: Nope, (I must say, since I have the memory of an Elephant )my dear old friend. Sansa in Game Aaaarghhhh!!!!!! Had no recollection of that line (obviously). I like your memory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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