Parallel between two fight scenes

[Фейсал]

Apologies ahead of time if this has been brought up before or is in the wrong section - i'll try and rectify that right away.

 

I think it'd be fair to say that The Tower of Joy scene proved super controversial among book readers and show fans a like. There were a lot of conflicting opinions - be it surrounding the casting of young Ned Stark, making two KG present there instead of three; or stripping Dayne of Dawn in favor of two swords [which IMO worked fine they should have just changed Dawn into two longswords and made their designs more distinctive] but what I really liked about the scene is how it harkens back to season 1.

Both scenes happen under extraordinarily similar circumstance when you look at them with interesting divergences. Jaime, Ser Arthur's prodigy, corners and out numbers Ned Stark and his men; the very opposite happens almost 2 decades ago when Ned out numbered Dayne and his fellow Kings guard.

A fight ensues, with Ned losing most of his men. Leaving it as a 1 on 1 between him and the kingslayer. Again, sound familiar?

And soon enough, Ned is back stabbed; even after putting up a valiant fights despite the odds. 

But here is where things get interesting: in that very same situation, Ned kills Arthur Dayne with his own blade. His face looks hesitant, sure, but he ends up putting him to the sword. The honorable lord Eddard Stark saw it fit considering the circumstance.

Where's the dishonorable kingslayer, who had Ned on his knees, refused to end him then and there. It wouldn't have been clean, it wouldn't have been a worthy victory. Jaime in his own weird way ends up displaying more honor than the famed Ned Stark did.

I find it an interesting bit of quite possibly accidental foreshadowing/reference in regards to Jaime's character; who we soon realize isn't as dishonorable as he seems while somewhat unraveling Eddard as a paragon of all that is righteous.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

One of Dayne's swords in that scene IS Dawn. Its obvious when he plants it into the ground prior to the dialogue with Ned Stark, as you can see the design on the hilt. And its the same sword that Ned slays him with and carries with him into the Tower. Theres a later close up shot of it in Episode 10 of that same season. 

 

I find that there are often parellels in the fight scenes in show, like when Jon, Grenn, Edd, etc. goes to clear out Craster's Keep of the Night Watch mutineers. Jon ends his fight with whats-his-name by putting Longclaw through the back of his head and causing it to come out the front of his face. Prince Tristan's murder by one of the Sand Snakes mirrors this when one of them essentially does the same thing with her spear. I believe there's one more fight as well from an earlier season where someone dies in this nature as well.

[Guest TheRealKingInTheNorth]

Glad you brought this up. The hypocrisy of Ned's honor is also exposed albeit to a lesser extent in his conversation with Jamie in the throne room.  Ned questions why Jamie did nothing when his father and brother were being killed but later chastises Jamie for killing the Mad King even though the Mad King wanted to kill everyone in King's Landing. I've been rewatching the series and Ned is looking more and more flawed to me. What will make me absolutely lose it though is if upon the series' end we find out that Ned truly left no method for Jon finding out his parentage. I know he did not expect to die in KL but keeping something like that to yourself alone screams recklessness to me.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

Well yes, Ned was a flawed character. One of his true flaws was his sense of honor. Not only was it selfish, but it got him into some terrible situations and ultimately got him killed. That's one of the parallel's I see between his character and that of Rhaegar Targaryen.

[jcmontea]

14 hours ago, Фейсал said:

Apologies ahead of time if this has been brought up before or is in the wrong section - i'll try and rectify that right away.

 

I think it'd be fair to say that The Tower of Joy scene proved super controversial among book readers and show fans a like. There were a lot of conflicting opinions - be it surrounding the casting of young Ned Stark, making two KG present there instead of two; or stripping Dayne of Dawn in favor of two swords [which IMO worked fine they should have just changed Dawn into two longswords and made their designs more distinctive] but what I really liked about the scene is how it harkens back to season 1.

Both scenes happen under extraordinarily similar circumstance when you look at them with interesting divergences. Jaime, Ser Arthur's prodigy, corners and out numbers Ned Stark and his men; the very opposite happens almost 2 decades ago when Ned out numbered Ned and his fellow Kings guard.

A fight ensues, with Ned losing most of his men. Leaving it as a 1 on 1 between him and the kingslayer. Again, sound familiar?

And soon enough, Ned is back stabbed; even after putting up a valiant fights despite the odds. 

But here is where things get interesting: in that very same situation, Ned kills Arthur Dayne with his own blade. His face looks hesitant, sure, but he ends up putting him to the sword. The honorable lord Eddard Stark saw it fit considering the circumstance.

Where's the dishonorable kingslayer, who had Ned on his knees, refused to end him then and there. It wouldn't have been clean, it wouldn't have been a worthy victory. Jaime in his own weird way ends up displaying more honor than the famed Ned.

I find it an interesting bit of quite possibly accidental foreshadowing/reference in regards to Jaime's character; who we soon realize isn't as dishonorable as he seems while somewhat unraveling Eddard as a paragon of all that is righteous.

Awesome parallel and contrast. Great analysis. 

I will give Ned a bit of slack since Dayne was stabbed in the throat and was going to die painfully. Ned killing him was almost a mercy killing. 

But beside that this maks total sense. 

[Jaehaerys Stark]

19 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Well yes, Ned was a flawed character. One of his true flaws was his sense of honor. Not only was it selfish, but it got him into some terrible situations and ultimately got him killed. That's one of the parallel's I see between his character and that of Rhaegar Targaryen.

I actually find it to be a closer parallel between Ned and Jon.  Like Ned, Jon has made a bunch of dumb decisions that either got people hurt/killed, or put others in a compromising situation, all in the name of honor.  Yet, we see both do less than honorable things, i.e. Ned lying to everyone about Jon's parentage, as well as falsely confessing just before his execution, as well as Jon killing Qhorin Halfhand and breaking his NW vows to sleep with Ygritte.  There is definitely a selfish side to trying to always do the honorable thing, which is ironic. In a way, a person trying to always be honorable cares first and foremost about their own image, which might sometimes prevent them from doing something that is inherently 'right' for the greater good...

[MinscS2]

23 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

 Yet, we see both do less than honorable things, i.e. Ned lying to everyone about Jon's parentage, as well as falsely confessing just before his execution, as well as Jon killing Qhorin Halfhand and breaking his NW vows to sleep with Ygritte. 

I'd just like to point some things out in regards to this statement:
Jon killing Qhorin wasn't dishonorable, he was more or less ordered to do so by Qhorin himself in order to be able to infiltrate the wildling ranks (Qhorin knew the wildlings would torture and kill him anyway, a quick death by Jon, especially if it aided Jon was preferable.)
Jon sleeping with Ygritte also wasn't dishonorable, as the Nightswatch-oath doesn't explicitly forbid the men from having sex with women (or other men), it simply forbids them to "father children", which Jon never did with Ygritte.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

1 hour ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I actually find it to be a closer parallel between Ned and Jon.  Like Ned, Jon has made a bunch of dumb decisions that either got people hurt/killed, or put others in a compromising situation, all in the name of honor.  Yet, we see both do less than honorable things, i.e. Ned lying to everyone about Jon's parentage, as well as falsely confessing just before his execution, as well as Jon killing Qhorin Halfhand and breaking his NW vows to sleep with Ygritte.  There is definitely a selfish side to trying to always do the honorable thing, which is ironic. In a way, a person trying to always be honorable cares first and foremost about their own image, which might sometimes prevent them from doing something that is inherently 'right' for the greater good...

 

That's an accurate way of looking at it as well. But as Minsce pointed out, Jon was basically ordered by Qhorin Halfhand, at least in the show, to kill him, as it would've been the only way he would've been able to infiltrate the Wildlings. I definitely agree about Ygritte though. I see similarities between Ned & Rhaegar though because like I said, their sense of "honor" in one way or another got them killed. Ned wanted to do the "honorable" thing by backing Stannis after Robert died, when in fact if he was smart, he would've allied himself with Renly, at least until they deslt with Cersei and the Lannisters. He could've taken the Iron Throne for himself long before this, but his sense of honor, forced him to remove another from the seat, Jaimie, and wait for Robert to take the throne and crown, which I think was really stupid. Rhaegar's sense of honor, had him possibly believing, he could take a battlefield, in full battle regalia, and still perhaps reason with a bull-headed individual like Robert Baratheon.

[Фейсал]

5 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

One of Dayne's swords in that scene IS Dawn. Its obvious when he plants it into the ground prior to the dialogue with Ned Stark, as you can see the design on the hilt. And its the same sword that Ned slays him with and carries with him into the Tower. Theres a later close up shot of it in Episode 10 of that same season.  

Yeah, I know. But the sword was way too plain for a sword forged out of the heart of a meteorite - the design they had going on in the Dayne history vid was far better.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

Yes. This is a good parallel. I would excuse Ned because he was young, he nearly died and was afraid for his sister. His sense of honor may have developed with time. But what I liked is Jaime punching the man who stabbed Ned. I suppose it just spoiled his fun. He wanted an honorable fight. But yes, there is no less honor in Jaime than in Ned. IMO, Ned wanted to do what is honorable before what is right. Jaime wanted to do what is right before what is honorable. Sometimes he had no right choice. "The things I do for love."

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

1 hour ago, Фейсал said:

Yeah, I know. But the sword was way too plain for a sword forged out of the heart of a meteorite - the design they had going on in the Dayne history vid was far better.

 

Agreed.

[falcotron]

5 hours ago, Фейсал said:

But the sword was way too plain for a sword forged out of the heart of a meteorite

Look at, for example, King Tut's famous iron dagger. It's actually plainer than his other daggers. Probably because just being made or iron in an age when everything else was made of bronze (because nobody knew how to turn iron ore into useful weapons, and meteoric iron is rare) already made it so special that anything you do will distract from rather than add to the specialness.

That being said, while it may have been reasonable for a realistic bronze-age meteoric iron sword, it doesn't seem right for Dawn, which is a special deal even millennia after the discovery of steel.