So was Jon Arryn's seed weak?

[Angel Eyes]

Or Lysa's reproductive organs messed up by moon tea that Hoster forced her to take? And all we have is sickly Sweetrobin. I've been wondering this for a while, since I read about Hoster forcing Lysa to abort Petyr Baelish's unborn child and the ensuing reproductive failures: miscarriages, stillbirths, etc. 

Nice going, Hoster.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Or Lysa's reproductive organs messed up by moon tea that Hoster forced her to take? And all we have is sickly Sweetrobin. I've been wondering this for a while, since I read about Hoster forcing Lysa to abort Petyr Baelish's unborn child and the ensuing reproductive failures: miscarriages, stillbirths, etc. 

Nice going, Hoster.

It was probably a bit of both. Jon had weak swimmers and the tansy tea that Hoster made her drink probably did some damage too. Sweetrobin may or may not be Jon's biological son, but it doesn't matter. He is so sick he cannot effectively rule, so he will always be someone's pawn 

[Angel Eyes]

I think it's ironic that Lysa thought Jon was talking about Sweetrobin when he said "The seed is strong." 

[Angel Eyes]

And Hoster laid the seeds for a war, or at the very least two succession crises. As I said earlier: Nice going.

[Dorian Martell's son]

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think it's ironic that Lysa thought Jon was talking about Sweetrobin when he said "The seed is strong." 

she was always a little off

9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And Hoster laid the seeds for a war, or at the very least two succession crises. As I said earlier: Nice going.

Not at all. Hoster formed an alliance that was very successful. He got the alliance he needed to take on the royals thus bonding him to the vale. the vale was bonded to the north and the stormlands by foster and hoster was already bonded to the north by agreement and now mariage, so the alliance was very strong. The seeds of war were lain by Cersei, Jamie, littlefinger and varys  

[Angel Eyes]

11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

she was always a little off

Not at all. Hoster formed an alliance that was very successful. He got the alliance he needed to take on the royals thus bonding him to the vale. the vale was bonded to the north and the stormlands by foster and hoster was already bonded to the north by agreement and now mariage, so the alliance was very strong. The seeds of war were lain by Cersei, Jamie, littlefinger and varys  

But she was the one who killed Jon Arryn. Or would Littlefinger have found another triggerman? 

[Angel Eyes]

Thinking that Petyr wasn't worthy of Catelyn pushed Petyr on his path to ruin the Tullys and the Starks. I'm actually part of the camp that believes that Littlefinger caused Robert's Rebellion by lying about the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance, so Brandon would get himself killed. Petyr didn't intend for war to break out, but Brandon died, and he was fine with that.

In that way, Littlefinger really reminded me of Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. He falls in love (or the closest thing to love) with a girl he's fostered with, but she marries someone of her own class, so he makes his fortune and resolves to ruin both families that he feels have wronged him.

[Фейсал]

Wasn't he a boy when that happened? I doubt he'd have built the circle of spies and informants to turn the fate of a whole country.

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

But she was the one who killed Jon Arryn. Or would Littlefinger have found another triggerman? 

She gave the poison to her husband at the behest of Littlefinger.  As for another killer? Maybe. but he didn't need one. He had a woman who has loved him since he popped her cherry. 

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Thinking that Petyr wasn't worthy of Catelyn pushed Petyr on his path to ruin the Tullys and the Starks. 

It did, but he was always going to be a power hungry man with smarts and dreams of grandeur. 

7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm actually part of the camp that believes that Littlefinger caused Robert's Rebellion by lying about the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance, so Brandon would get himself killed. Petyr didn't intend for war to break out, but Brandon died, and he was fine with that.

since Petyr's name was never mentioned in anything about bob's rebellion, I can't see it being a possibility. Just because something we think he would have liked happened does not mean he was involved in it. especially if there is zero in the book to lead you to that

10 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

In that way, Littlefinger really reminded me of Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. He falls in love (or the closest thing to love) with a girl he's fostered with, but she marries someone of her own class, so he makes his fortune and resolves to ruin both families that he feels have wronged him.

That is pretty right on, but he had to wait until he had real power to do so

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Фейсал said:

Wasn't he a boy when that happened? I doubt he'd have built the circle of spies and informants to turn the fate of a whole country.

The idea, at least for me, was that he told Brandon himself. This is where he learned the power of words. At least in the show, when Sansa says that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, Littlefinger gives her a look, as if to say "are you sure"?

 

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

She gave the poison to her husband at the behest of Littlefinger.  As for another killer? Maybe. but he didn't need one. He had a woman who has loved him since he popped her cherry. 

It did, but he was always going to be a power hungry man with smarts and dreams of grandeur. 

since Petyr's name was never mentioned in anything about bob's rebellion, I can't see it being a possibility. Just because something we think he would have liked happened does not mean he was involved in it. especially if there is zero in the book to lead you to that

That is pretty right on, but he had to wait until he had real power to do so

I guess what I'm saying is that if Littlefinger didn't have Lysa, would he have someone else to pull the proverbial trigger on Jon Arryn?

[elder brother jonothor dar]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

And Hoster laid the seeds for a war, or at the very least two succession crises. As I said earlier: Nice going.

Which 2?

You are suggesting he caused the twincest, or that he simply exposed it to Jon and Stannis.

I can't even think of another succession crises since Egg took the throne, maybe the Greyjoy one

[Angel Eyes]

14 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Which 2?

You are suggesting he caused the twincest, or that he simply exposed it to Jon and Stannis.

I can't even think of another succession crises since Egg took the throne, maybe the Greyjoy one

He compromised House Arryn by forcing Lysa to drink moon tea, which probably compromised her ability to have a child. As for the one child she does have, Sweetrobin has seizures and likely won't live to adulthood since he's been receiving medication that causes seizures; plus, not sure how well seizures do during sex. Also, because Lysa's unhappy marriage drove her to Littefinger, Littlefinger had Lysa poison Jon, then had her write to Catelyn implicating the Lannisters, Ned goes looking and figures out the Lannincest.

Or perhaps I've exaggerated Hoster's role in the Baratheon crisis, but Hoster definitely has a hand in the Arryn crisis.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Or Lysa's reproductive organs messed up by moon tea that Hoster forced her to take?

possible

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

And all we have is sickly Sweetrobin. I've been wondering this for a while, since I read about Hoster forcing Lysa to abort Petyr Baelish's unborn child and the ensuing reproductive failures: miscarriages, stillbirths, etc. 

I dunna know

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Or perhaps I've exaggerated Hoster's role in the Baratheon crisis, but Hoster definitely has a hand in the Arryn crisis.

Lysa  had a teenage tryst (follow the thought) ----Lysa’s daddy had Lysa’s & Lf’s baby aborted. Teenage Lysa was married off to old man Arryn as spoiled but fertile. Hoster agrees to provide troops to Robert’s cause after the Lord of WF and his heir were killed by the King of Westeros.

[Lollygag]

Sorry if I'm repeating something...

Lysa used the deaths of her children to manipulate Jon Arryn and no doubt a lot of Lysa's manipulation of Jon originated with LF. So if Lysa has more children, then Lysa (and LF) loses some of the guilt trip and pity which apparently worked so well on Jon.

We also know that LF very much doesn't want any children of Jon Arryn to inherit the Vale because of whatever his plans are. It's possible that Lysa's inability to have children stemmed from her forced abortion and/or Jon had fertility problems but if that wasn't the case, LF had every reason to make sure she didn't have any more children than necessary to secure the marriage.

I've seen some speculate that LF is keeping Robert sick but I'm not sure what I think about that.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

He compromised House Arryn by forcing Lysa to drink moon tea, which probably compromised her ability to have a child. As for the one child she does have, Sweetrobin has seizures and likely won't live to adulthood since he's been receiving medication that causes seizures; plus, not sure how well seizures do during sex. Also, because Lysa's unhappy marriage drove her to Littefinger, Littlefinger had Lysa poison Jon, then had her write to Catelyn implicating the Lannisters, Ned goes looking and figures out the Lannincest.

Or perhaps I've exaggerated Hoster's role in the Baratheon crisis, but Hoster definitely has a hand in the Arryn crisis.

Jon was an old man and childless the last of his line.  Hosted gave him a young bride to solve the succession crisis Robin might not make it but better than nothing

[TMIFairy]

12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Or Lysa's reproductive organs messed up by moon tea that Hoster forced her to take?

IMO indeed "the seed is weak".

Two wives and not a living child to show for it.

While Lysa's sister - if this is anything to go by - popped out healthy rugrats like there was no tomorrow.

We hear of no complications from guzzling moontea by the gallon.

I'd not be surprised if Robert Arryn was Petyr's.

[Jordan La Cabra]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Thinking that Petyr wasn't worthy of Catelyn pushed Petyr on his path to ruin the Tullys and the Starks. I'm actually part of the camp that believes that Littlefinger caused Robert's Rebellion by lying about the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance, so Brandon would get himself killed. Petyr didn't intend for war to break out, but Brandon died, and he was fine with that.

In that way, Littlefinger really reminded me of Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. He falls in love (or the closest thing to love) with a girl he's fostered with, but she marries someone of her own class, so he makes his fortune and resolves to ruin both families that he feels have wronged him.

I'd never heard of this idea before, but it's intrigued me. In that way, there would also be a parallel between Littlefinger and Severus Snape. If Petyr truly passed on some kind of information that ended up with Brandon getting killed, it would be similar, but not the same, as Severus passing on information to Voldemort that got James Potter killed, the man who married Lily Evans, the woman Severus loved. When Voldemort decided the prophecy was about Harry Potter, Severus was happy enough to beg that Voldemort took James and Harry's lives but spared Lily's.

Both pieces of information would bear terrible consequences. If Petry did lie about Lyanna's disappearance, he would have sent the realm into chaos by causing a war. In Severus' case, he ended up indirectly 'ending' a war, but also ended up playing a part in the death of not only James Potter, but Lily Potter, too.

 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I'd never heard of this idea before, but it's intrigued me. In that way, there would also be a parallel between Littlefinger and Severus Snape. If Petyr truly passed on some kind of information that ended up with Brandon getting killed, it would be similar, but not the same, as Severus passing on information to Voldemort that got James Potter killed, the man who married Lily Evans, the woman Severus loved. When Voldemort decided the prophecy was about Harry Potter, Severus was happy enough to beg that Voldemort took James and Harry's lives but spared Lily's.

Both pieces of information would bear terrible consequences. If Petry did lie about Lyanna's disappearance, he would have sent the realm into chaos by causing a war. In Severus' case, he ended up indirectly 'ending' a war, but also ended up playing a part in the death of not only James Potter, but Lily Potter, too.

 

Except that Snape was sorry for what he had done when Lily died. Petyr just starts hitting on Sansa once she's in his grasp.

[Jordan La Cabra]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Except that Snape was sorry for what he had done when Lily died. Petyr just starts hitting on Sansa once she's in his grasp.

True. Nor did Severus conspire to bring a sorry end to remaining members of Lily's family like Petyr did to a remaining member of Brandon's family when he double crossed Ned.

As I said,

2 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

it would be similar, but not the same,

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

16 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I guess what I'm saying is that if Littlefinger didn't have Lysa, would he have someone else to pull the proverbial trigger on Jon Arryn?

If he didn't have Lysa, he would have never planned to murder Jon. Everything Petyr has is due to Lysa and John. His position in Gulltown, his positions in king's landing etc. I can only imagine that if he did not have connections to the lord paramount of the vale, he would have ingratiated himself to someone else and used them as a ladder