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The Starks, the Others and...Goldenhand?

45 posts in this topic

21 hours ago, falcotron said:

So, where does that leave your idea that the humans can't win by defeating the Walkers in a war because GRRM never brings lasting peace with a war?

My point was not humans can't win against the Others because for GRRM wars can't bring lasting peace. I believe for him wars can sometimes be just and serve a noble purpose. The Starks are the example. But the Arryns invasion was not such a case. It left most of the First Men worse than before and never healed. Anyway, no one should feel glorious about war. I feel the NW vows right about that at least.

Others are not humans. It is not a war against other humans. I believe the humans can't win against the Others because they are sent by the Lion of Night. And if the god switches off the light until he has what he wants, then the wicked men will not win, or everyone will die. A war you can't win.

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2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

My point was not humans can't win against the Others because for GRRM wars can't bring lasting peace. I believe for him wars can sometimes be just and serve a noble purpose.

You literally said that GRRM only designs lasting peaces by pact, not by wars:

On 9/29/2017 at 2:09 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

IMO, the Targaryens' Fire must be the Ice enemy. What if Rhaegar and Lyanna broke some pact by marrying Fire and Ice? I rather believe we can't defeat the Others. We must then reforge this Pact. It was a pact which brought a lasting peace between the Children and the First Men. IMO, GRRM only design lasting peaces by treaties, pacts, not by wars.

And meanwhile:

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Starks are the example. But the Arryns invasion was not such a case. It left most of the First Men worse than before and never healed.

The only reason anyone mentioned the Arryns is because you said the Arryns' invasion was such a case:

On 10/4/2017 at 11:00 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

The Starks have more legitimacy because the achieved a relative peace very very long ago. And they managed to keep it significantly better than most everywhere. The legitimacy is the cause not the consequence. Not sure but I think the Arryns did quite good also.

Meanwhile:

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Anyway, no one should feel glorious about war.

Go back and watch the interview I linked if you want to see GRRM's actual take on this, instead of just assuming it must be the same as your take. People do feel glorious about war, and it's important to show that rather than ignore it, or showing the cost of war doesn't get the message across.

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Others are not humans. It is not a war against other humans. I believe the humans can't win against the Others because they are sent by the Lion of Night. And if the god switches off the light until he has what he wants, then the wicked men will not win, or everyone will die. A war you can't win.

Humans won the last war against the Others. What makes you think this one is different?

Literally the only thing we know about the Lion of Night is that he was defeated by a hero leading humanity into battle against him:

Quote

Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

And your takeaway from that is that you can't defeat the Lion of Night with a war?

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27 minutes ago, falcotron said:

You literally said that GRRM only designs lasting peaces by pact, not by wars:

The 2 are not contradictory. The war may be necessary in some cases. But it's not what provides the peace. It is what is done after, to mend the damages, forgive, and restore the honor of the losers. What the Starks are good at. The Arryns less.

30 minutes ago, falcotron said:

The only reason anyone mentioned the Arryns is because you said the Arryns' invasion was such a case:

I said I forgot the Arryns bloody beginning.

31 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Go back and watch the interview I linked if you want to see GRRM's actual take on this, instead of just assuming it must be the same as your take. People do feel glorious about war, and it's important to show that rather than ignore it, or showing the cost of war doesn't get the message across.

I listened a second time to the interview, to the end this time. Yes, he said people feel glorious with their bright colors. But IMO it was ironic, even ridicule. Because people die horribly, severed limbs and so on, peasants who had no care for such war. People rotting with gangrene I imagine. There is nothing to desire there. And he was not for wars which have no purpose.

44 minutes ago, falcotron said:

And your takeaway from that is that you can't defeat the Lion of Night with a war?

This can have different interpretations. It's not me who started the idea the virtuous didn't defeat the Others. My interpretation is the virtuous fixed the problem by defeating those who angered the gods and brought the Long Night. If the gods are gods, you can't defeat them on a battlefield. But I understand you disagree.

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

My point was not humans can't win against the Others because for GRRM wars can't bring lasting peace. I believe for him wars can sometimes be just and serve a noble purpose. The Starks are the example. But the Arryns invasion was not such a case. It left most of the First Men worse than before and never healed. Anyway, no one should feel glorious about war. I feel the NW vows right about that at least.

Others are not humans. It is not a war against other humans. I believe the humans can't win against the Others because they are sent by the Lion of Night. And if the god switches off the light until he has what he wants, then the wicked men will not win, or everyone will die. A war you can't win.

Is there actual evidence supporting this or is it pure tin foil? 

In the show I have seen no evidence of this. 

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Is there actual evidence supporting this or is it pure tin foil? 

In the show I have seen no evidence of this. 

In the show no. I believe Melisandre talked about the Great Other against R'hllor. But I believe the show's others can more or less easily be killed. I don't suppose the NK is much harder.

In the books, you can name it my tin foil. It's no problem for me. But I believe the Yi Ti legends are the key of the story. IMO they ring true with the current events.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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