Euron's improtance? Good character?

[Tyrion1991]

For a character who was barely a footnote in the first three books I am struck by how many theories revolve around the centrality of this character to the future of the series and almost making him a nemesis to Daenerys.

I mean GRRM has made him very overpowered, despite hailing from a faction which I got the impression from the first three novels was a second rate power that only beat the North because its army was gone and certainly couldn't threaten the Reach.

* He has 1000 ships. This is insane, I wouldn't have said the Greyjoys had a fifth of that from the first three books.

* He has a network of sorcerers and fell magic at his command. 

* He has a dragonhorn which can summon one of Danys dragons and which she has no defence against and can do nothing to prevent.

Personally I am not a fan of GRRM introducing such a powerful character this late game and especially coming from the Greyjoys. Its one thing to introduce the Golden Company and have them come into the story. But the Greyjoys were a known element and I can't square their depiction in the first three books with what they do in AFFC; unless the 1000 ships figure is a gross exaggeration. 

Plus he breaks the rule that sorcery is a sword without a hilt since it seems to be the bedrock of his power. If it nets him a dragon, which a lot of people are very convinced it will; seems a tad out of touch with what other characters have to go through when using magic.

The same goes for the Dragonhorn itself. IMO Dany losing one of her dragons to another person would be an absolute and unmitigated disaster from her point of view. So, any character succeeding in doing this has to be either because Dany makes some colossal error of judgement or as a statement of their cunning and power. The problem is that Dany can't possibly do anything against the Dragonhorn. No decision Dany could have taken would have protected her from its use. Even if she was in the Stormlands with Aegon right now; nothing stops Euron doing that. Is it a testament to Eurons power and cunning? Well, no, you get somebody to blow the horn and the dragon comes to you. If Euron did something to acquire the horn that took place offpage and so I can't credit him with it. He shows up with a plot device that can get him a dragon for doing nothing. Which again, contradicts the notion that magic requires sacrifice. 

Basically I think he is important. But hes not the main villain of the series and he isn't going to succeed in getting a dragon because he stumbled on a plot device. He feels very left field. I just can't see the Greyjoys as one of the big players in this story. They exist to cause chaos, they're never going to succeed in getting what they want; this even comes up in AFFC.

On that point, it thematically goes against Asha's discussion with the reader where its stated that its the dreaming and vainglory of the Ironborn which has doomed them to mediocrity instead of just pledging themselves to an Overlord and sharing in the spoils. Euron is very much a man who wants to lead the Ironborn to glory; so should the story really have him come close to achieving what the reader suggests should be folly? 

[Angel Eyes]

Perhaps to show another opportunist, with more power than Ramsay and more scope than Joffrey? I actually like the show's version of Euron, especially in Stormborn when he's tearing through soldiers with an axe like a boss.

[astonedtargaryen]

Book Euron is a little too...high fantasy for me.

He also feels like a plot device. It's hard to say without TWoW out but at this point his presence in the story only seems relevant as far as getting Dany and Co. to Westeros. 
He's my least favorite Greyjoy and not just because he's a sadistic jerk. He's uninteresting to me. 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Euron is very much a man who wants to lead the Ironborn to glory; so should the story really have him come close to achieving what the reader suggests should be folly? 

Is that what Euron's up to?   Not quite how I read it, but I've read ahead and wouldn't want to spoil the surprise if you haven't.    Let's say I think there is a whole level of terrible about Euron we haven't yet seen.  I anticipate some very high satisfaction out of this character.   

[Tagganaro]

I haven't read the spoiler chapters in TWOW so I can't really speak to what Euron's gonna get up to.  In short, yes I have to agree that Euron so far is not a very good character.  The most interesting thing about him is the Euron=Daario theory mainly because it's so ridiculous yet so addicting and somehow makes a little bit of sense?

In general, I still am frustrated by all the Ironborn POVs that seem so damn unnecessary.  Do we really need POVs for Aeron, Victarion, Asha, and Theon?  I really like Asha but feel like even she is unnecessary as a POV, soon the Greyjoys will have more POVs than the Starks .

I'll say that it's still really unclear how the dragon horn situation resolves itself.  I don't think Euron will just get a dragon.  Victarion is an idiot but even so I can still see him being a major impediment to whatever Euron is planning, which is still really unclear.  Where is Euron and how does he plan to get the dragon to him if Victarion won't play ball?  How does the horn work, if it does work in the first place?  If it's blown, who does the dragon bind to and why?  How does the dusky woman play into this?  Moqorro?  In general, still a ton of questions that need to play out before we even begin to see whether any of Euron's plans come to fruition.

I will say I'm a little worried Euron will succeed based on the House of the Undying Prophecy to Dany about the mount to dread, because I take the mounts to be husbands.

[Amris]

I don't have complaints about Euron so far - because he is not a POV character.

What I wouldn't like was if he became a POV character too. We already have too many Greyjoy POVs for my taste.

I think Theon we all agree on is a cool and central character. As for Balon he had his role and where I am concerned as a non-POV was used by GRRM in exactly the right way too.

As to Tagganaro's question of 'do we really need POVs for Aeron, Victarion and Asha?

That's exactly what I'm asking myself too whenever I read their POVs. And I suppose the answer boils down to what kind of storytelling one prefers - the traditional way where the story is told from one viewpoint or Martin's way - where the story is told from various viewpoints.

Everyone has their own tastes and that is how it should be. There is no right or wrong here IMO. I can only answer the question for myself:

I am more of a traditional reader and don't have an easy time getting into all these different characters. I do have to say though that Martin is a real master of the multiple viewpoint storytelling and that I have come to appreciate a lot of his secondary characters and admire how he manages to get into them - and get me into them as well - and shed light onto the story from different angles.

Nevertheless though I have come to find some of the secondary POVs brilliant I simply can not connect with some of them. And among those are Aeron and Victarion. (Asha I am neutral about). I believe I know Martin's reasoning for including Aeron and Victarion: they are there to show us storylines that will have an impact on the main story at some point and Martin wants us to have some background as to what led to that impact so that it does not come completely out of the blue. I would prefer 'out of the blue' to Aeron and Victarion though. But as I said: that's a matter of taste and there is no objective right or wrong here.

[chrisdaw]

It is not late in the game. He will serve multiple very important functions. He will demonstrate first hand and thus reveal how dragon riding works with relation to the blood bond. He will remove Drogon from Dany's control. And will demonstrate how the Others 'work' as far as reanimating wights and commanding them.

He is a cornerstone in Dany's arc and an almost first hand interpreter for the roadmap of ASOIAF magic.

[zandru]

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Personally I am not a fan of GRRM introducing such a powerful character this late game

"Late"? With another two (possibly more) books in the series, each at least 1,000 pages?

Yes, I know George RR's penchant for letting characters proliferate like weeds in his "garden". Full disclosure: my own literal garden looks the same. So I know how some unlikely-looking sprouts can, inexplicably, pay off. The chocolate flowers, the scarlet globemallow, the strawberry plant, the butternut squash vine, the red yucca that all came up spontaneously. Similarly, Merrett Walder's brief tour upon the stage gave backstory to Roose Bolton's new wife, behind the scenes plotting for the Red Wedding, possible insight into Gregor Clegane's murderous grouchiness. Poor Quentyn Martell (I had really hoped better for him! too bad Dany didn't tell Hizdar zo Loraq the engagement is off; go pound sand) will serve to energize Doran Martell and put Dorne into play; "Ser" Dontos Hollard resulted in us learning more about the Duskendale revolt and the madness of King Aerys. Not to mention the whole deal with Sansa.

Euron may have a similarly limited shelf life (one can hope), but don't doubt that he's there to be a major problem and will have huge impact.

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

For a character who was barely a footnote in the first three books I am struck by how many theories revolve around the centrality of this character to the future of the series and almost making him a nemesis to Daenerys.

I mean GRRM has made him very overpowered, despite hailing from a faction which I got the impression from the first three novels was a second rate power that only beat the North because its army was gone and certainly couldn't threaten the Reach.

* He has 1000 ships. This is insane, I wouldn't have said the Greyjoys had a fifth of that from the first three books.

* He has a network of sorcerers and fell magic at his command. 

* He has a dragonhorn which can summon one of Danys dragons and which she has no defence against and can do nothing to prevent.

Personally I am not a fan of GRRM introducing such a powerful character this late game and especially coming from the Greyjoys. Its one thing to introduce the Golden Company and have them come into the story. But the Greyjoys were a known element and I can't square their depiction in the first three books with what they do in AFFC; unless the 1000 ships figure is a gross exaggeration. 

Euron is mentioned very early in Clash...

Quote

Theon was more interested in ships than gods. Among the masts of countless fishing boats, he spied a Tyroshi trading galley off-loading beside a lumbering Ibbenese cog with her black-tarred hull. A great number of longships, fifty or sixty at the least, stood out to sea or lay beached on the pebbled shore to the north. Some of the sails bore devices from the other islands; the blood moon of Wynch, Lord Goodbrother's banded black warhorn, Harlaw's silver scythe. Theon searched for his uncle Euron's Silence. Of that lean and terrible red ship he saw no sign, but his father's Great Kraken was there, her bow ornamented with a grey iron ram in the shape of its namesake.

Had Lord Balon anticipated him and called the Greyjoy banners? His hand went inside his cloak again, to the oilskin pouch. No one knew of his letter but Robb Stark; they were no fools, to entrust their secrets to a bird. Still, Lord Balon was no fool either. He might well have guessed why his son was coming home at long last, and acted accordingly.

The thought did not please him. His father's war was long done, and lost. This was Theon's hour—his plan, his glory, and in time his crown. Yet if the longships are hosting . . .

It might be only a caution, now that he thought on it. A defensive move, lest the war spill out across the sea. Old men were cautious by nature. His father was old now, and so too his uncle Victarion, who commanded the Iron Fleet. His uncle Euron was a different song, to be sure, but the Silence did not seem to be in port. It's all for the good, Theon told himself. This way, I shall be able to strike all the more quickly.

Theon I, Clash 11

Euron and his ship were both named. Given the ship's name, I think we can assume that the George had worked out the basics of the character's nature. And we can see that Theon is very wary of his uncle Euron. Vary wary...

Quote

"My brothers are long dead, and my sister . . . well, they say Asha's favorite gown is a chainmail hauberk that hangs down past her knees, with boiled leather smallclothes beneath. Men's garb won't make her a man, though. I'll make a good marriage alliance with her once we've won the war, if I can find a man to take her. As I recall, she had a nose like a vulture's beak, a ripe crop of pimples, and no more chest than a boy."

"You can marry off your sister," Esgred observed, "but not your uncles."

"My uncles . . . " Theon's claim took precedence over those of his father's three brothers, but the woman had touched on a sore point nonetheless. in the islands it was scarce unheard of for a strong, ambitious uncle to dispossess a weak nephew of his rights, and usually murder him in the bargain. But I am not weak, Theon told himself, and I mean to be stronger yet by the time my father dies. "My uncles pose no threat to me," he declared. "Aeron is drunk on seawater and sanctity. He lives only for his god—"

"His god? Not yours?"

"Mine as well. What is dead can never die." He smiled thinly. "If I make pious noises as required, Damphair will give me no trouble. And my uncle Victarion—"

"Lord Captain of the Iron Fleet, and a fearsome warrior. I have heard them sing of him in the alehouses."

"During my lord father's rebellion, he sailed into Lannisport with my uncle Euron and burned the Lannister fleet where it lay at anchor," Theon recalled. "The plan was Euron's, though. Victarion is like some great grey bullock, strong and tireless and dutiful, but not like to win any races. No doubt, he'll serve me as loyally as he has served my lord father. He has neither the wits nor the ambition to plot betrayal."

"Euron Croweye has no lack of cunning, though. I've heard men say terrible things of that one."

Theon shifted his seat. "My uncle Euron has not been seen in the islands for close on two years. He may be dead." If so, it might be for the best. Lord Balon's eldest brother had never given up the Old Way, even for a day. His Silence, with its black sails and dark red hull, was infamous in every port from Ibben to Asshai, it was said.

"He may be dead," Esgred agreed, "and if he lives, why, he has spent so long at sea, he'd be half a stranger here. The ironborn would never seat a stranger in the Seastone Chair."

"I suppose not," Theon replied, before it occurred to him that some would call him a stranger as well. The thought made him frown. Ten years is a long while, but I am back now, and my father is far from dead. I have time to prove myself.

Theon II, Clash 24

And Euron returns by the middle of Storm...

Quote

Robb waited for Ser Raynald to close the tent flap. "The gods have heard our prayers, my lords. Lord Jason has brought us the captain of the Myraham, a merchanter out of Oldtown. Captain, tell them what you told me."

"Aye, Your Grace." He licked his thick lips nervously. "My last port of call afore Seagard, that was Lordsport on Pyke. The ironmen kept me there more'n half a year, they did. King Balon's command. Only, well, the long and the short of it is, he's dead."

"Balon Greyjoy?" Catelyn's heart skipped a beat. "You are telling us that Balon Greyjoy is dead?"

The shabby little captain nodded. "You know how Pyke's built on a headland, and part on rocks and islands off the shore, with bridges between? The way I heard it in Lordsport, there was a blow coming in from the west, rain and thunder, and old King Balon was crossing one of them bridges when the wind got hold of it and just tore the thing to pieces. He washed up two days later, all bloated and broken. Crabs ate his eyes, I hear."

The Greatjon laughed. "King crabs, I hope, to sup upon such royal jelly, eh?"

The captain bobbed his head. "Aye, but that's not all of it, no!" He leaned forward. "The brother's back."

"Victarion?" asked Galbart Glover, surprised.

"Euron. Crow's Eye, they call him, as black a pirate as ever raised a sail. He's been gone for years, but Lord Balon was no sooner cold than there he was, sailing into Lordsport in his Silence. Black sails and a red hull, and crewed by mutes. He'd been to Asshai and back, I heard. Wherever he was, though, he's home now, and he marched right into Pyke and sat his arse in the Seastone Chair, and drowned Lord Botley in a cask of seawater when he objected. That was when I ran back to Myraham and slipped anchor, hoping I could get away whilst things were confused. And so I did, and here I am."

"Captain," said Robb when the man was done, "you have my thanks, and you will not go unrewarded. Lord Jason will take you back to your ship when we are done. Pray wait outside."

"That I will, Your Grace. That I will."

No sooner had he left the king's pavilion than the Greatjon began to laugh, but Robb silenced him with a look. "Euron Greyjoy is no man's notion of a king, if half of what Theon said of him was true. Theon is the rightful heir, unless he's dead . . . but Victarion commands the Iron Fleet. I can't believe he would remain at Moat Cailin while Euron Crow's Eye holds the Seastone Chair. He has to go back."

"There's a daughter as well," Galbart Glover reminded him. "The one who holds Deepwood Motte, and Robett's wife and child."

"If she stays at Deepwood Motte that's all she can hope to hold," said Robb. "What's true for the brothers is even more true for her. She will need to sail home to oust Euron and press her own claim." Her son turned to Lord Jason Mallister. "You have a fleet at Seagard?"

"A fleet, Your Grace? Half a dozen longships and two war galleys. Enough to defend my own shores against raiders, but I could not hope to meet the Iron Fleet in battle. 

"Nor would I ask it of you. The ironborn will be setting sail toward Pyke, I expect. Theon told me how his people think. Every captain a king on his own deck. They will all want a voice in the succession. My lord, I need two of your longships to sail around the Cape of Eagles and up the Neck to Greywater Watch."

Catelyn V, Storm 45

So, we know that the George has been holding this character in reserve. We know that Euron is a bad dude, who has been off in the East. We begin to see how he fits in with the rest of the Greyjoy and Iron Islands characters. And as the first main conflict nears a climax at the Red Wedding, we see that Euron has returned, presumably to play a role in the second main conflict, and/or possibly the third main conflict. What I understand from interviews is that the George was planning to tell the story of the Kingsmoot through Aeron flashbacks, but gave it up after it got to be too long, and he set about writing Feast, which allowed him to tell the stories of the intrigues of Cersei and Doran and Arianne. 

We still can't be sure how powerful his sorcery is. He prayed for a Faceless Man to give his brother the gift, so he could seize the Seastone Chair. He claims to have sailed to Asshai and Valyria, but there is doubt, at least as to the latter. He claims to have stolen a Valyrian dragon horn from warlocks of Qarth, and we have nearly every reason to believe that it is genuine, but we have yet to see it control a dragon. And it is rumored that Euron's wizards were able to employ a sorcerous wind following a blood sacrifice to the Storm God (which was apparently similar to the wind that propelled Stannis from Dragonstone to Eastwatch). And we learn in The Foresaken, Winds that 

Spoiler

Euron has a suit of Valyrian steel armor, and appears to be collecting wizards and priests from various practices and faiths, but we are not sure of his objective in doing so. 

Margaery tells Cersei that Euron has stuck the Reach with 1,000 ships. One thousand ships might be an exaggeration, and the actual number surely includes smaller longships crewed by as few as 20 men, as well war prizes. Given that Euron likely left few ships and fighting men back in the Iron Islands, shouldn't we assume that this number is accurate? And keep in mind that number included Vicatrion's ships before he sailed off to Slaver's Bay. 

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Plus he breaks the rule that sorcery is a sword without a hilt since it seems to be the bedrock of his power. If it nets him a dragon, which a lot of people are very convinced it will; seems a tad out of touch with what other characters have to go through when using magic.

There is still plenty of time for Euron to slice his hand. 

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The same goes for the Dragonhorn itself. IMO Dany losing one of her dragons to another person would be an absolute and unmitigated disaster from her point of view. So, any character succeeding in doing this has to be either because Dany makes some colossal error of judgement or as a statement of their cunning and power. The problem is that Dany can't possibly do anything against the Dragonhorn. No decision Dany could have taken would have protected her from its use. Even if she was in the Stormlands with Aegon right now; nothing stops Euron doing that. Is it a testament to Eurons power and cunning? Well, no, you get somebody to blow the horn and the dragon comes to you. If Euron did something to acquire the horn that took place offpage and so I can't credit him with it. He shows up with a plot device that can get him a dragon for doing nothing. Which again, contradicts the notion that magic requires sacrifice. 

I am not convinced that the dragon horn will work as completely as Euron appears to expect. But even if it does, why should we assume that Daenerys would have been able to control who rides which dragon? My chidren don't always listen to their mother, why should Daenerys's? Moreover, if the dragons are going to dance, and we can be pretty sure they will, one or both of the others will have to fight Daenerys on Drogon, no? 

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Basically I think he is important. But hes not the main villain of the series and he isn't going to succeed in getting a dragon because he stumbled on a plot device. He feels very left field. I just can't see the Greyjoys as one of the big players in this story. They exist to cause chaos, they're never going to succeed in getting what they want; this even comes up in AFFC.

On that point, it thematically goes against Asha's discussion with the reader where its stated that its the dreaming and vainglory of the Ironborn which has doomed them to mediocrity instead of just pledging themselves to an Overlord and sharing in the spoils. Euron is very much a man who wants to lead the Ironborn to glory; so should the story really have him come close to achieving what the reader suggests should be folly? 

I agree. I think he is designed to cause Aegon trouble. I expect that we will see things develop as Tyrion predicted...

Quote

"If I were you? I would go west instead of east. Land in Dorne and raise my banners. The Seven Kingdoms will never be more ripe for conquest than they are right now. A boy king sits the Iron Throne. The north is in chaos, the riverlands a devastation, a rebel holds Storm's End and Dragonstone. When winter comes, the realm will starve. And who remains to deal with all of this, who rules the little king who rules the Seven Kingdoms? Why, my own sweet sister. There is no one else. My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule. My uncle Kevan would make a passably good regent if someone pressed the duty on him, but he will never reach for it. The gods shaped him to be a follower, not a leader." Well, the gods and my lord father. "Mace Tyrell would grasp the sceptre gladly, but mine own kin are not like to step aside and give it to him. And everyone hates Stannis. Who does that leave?

Why, only Cersei.

"Westeros is torn and bleeding, and I do not doubt that even now my sweet sister is binding up the wounds … with salt. Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined. She takes caution for cowardice and dissent for defiance. And she is greedy. Greedy for power, for honor, for love. Tommen's rule is bolstered by all of the alliances that my lord father built so carefully, but soon enough she will destroy them, every one. Land and raise your banners, and men will flock to your cause. Lords great and small, and smallfolk too. But do not wait too long, my prince. The moment will not last. The tide that lifts you now will soon recede. Be certain you reach Westeros before my sister falls and someone more competent takes her place."

"But," Prince Aegon said, "without Daenerys and her dragons, how could we hope to win?"

"You do not need to win," Tyrion told him. "All you need to do is raise your banners, rally your supporters, and hold, until Daenerys arrives to join her strength to yours."

"You said she might not have me."

"Perhaps I overstated. She may take pity on you when you come begging for her hand." The dwarf shrugged. "Do you want to wager your throne upon a woman's whim? Go to Westeros, though … ah, then you are a rebel, not a beggar. Bold, reckless, a true scion of House Targaryen, walking in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror. A dragon.

"I told you, I know our little queen. Let her hear that her brother Rhaegar's murdered son is still alive, that this brave boy has raised the dragon standard of her forebears in Westeros once more, that he is fighting a desperate war to avenge his father and reclaim the Iron Throne for House Targaryen, hard-pressed on every side … and she will fly to your side as fast as wind and water can carry her. You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer. The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brother's son in his hour of peril. And when she reaches Westeros, and meets you for the first time, you will meet as equals, man and woman, not queen and supplicant. How can she help but love you then, I ask you?"

Tyrion VI, Dance 22

[zandru]

11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, we know that the George has been holding this character in reserve.

Thanks! Your reply is much more valuable than my discussion of my messy, overgrown yard!

We will probably see the same with Maester Marwyn, who has been mentioned just in passing by several characters, going all the way back to Game of Thrones.

[cpg2016]

I think Euron is a pretty important character, and not necessarily one coming out of the weeds.  As Lost Melnibonean says, he's been hinted at and foreshadowed since the beginning of the series.  He's also thematically necessary for a whole bunch of reasons; he's going to bring down the Wall, it seems (since Sam is conveniently in the area with the Horn of Joramun).  Moreover, he is a plausible threat to Dany and her dragons, and a supernatural one at that (since he also seems to be a skinchanger).  And for Dany especially, I think he'll represent the final choice she has to make, to be a hero or a conqueror.  He's her Valyrian heritage brought to life - a slaver, in control of powerful arcane magics, with powerful Valyrian artifacts to boot, encouraging her to indulge in the worst of her "fire and blood" instincts.  She has to reject that, and embrace her role as a liberator and breaker of chains, before she can truly earn her heroism and fly North with Jon and (probably) Tyrion to confront whatever is beyond the veil of light at the end of the world.

He's no more random than fAegon, or than Brienne was at the time.  All the Martell characters are pretty random, if you're dividing line is just "whose been around since the beginning".  But they've clearly all been on Martin's mind since Day 1 or close to it, and hints of them are scattered throughout the text, so I've got no issue with any of it.  They all serve importan narrative and thematic functions.

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Euron is mentioned very early in Clash...

Theon I, Clash 11

Euron and his ship were both named. Given the ship's name, I think we can assume that the George had worked out the basics of the character's nature. And we can see that Theon is very wary of his uncle Euron. Vary wary...

Theon II, Clash 24

And Euron returns by the middle of Storm...

Catelyn V, Storm 45

So, we know that the George has been holding this character in reserve. We know that Euron is a bad dude, who has been off in the East. We begin to see how he fits in with the rest of the Greyjoy and Iron Islands characters. And as the first main conflict nears a climax at the Red Wedding, we see that Euron has returned, presumably to play a role in the second main conflict, and/or possibly the third main conflict. What I understand from interviews is that the George was planning to tell the story of the Kingsmoot through Aeron flashbacks, but gave it up after it got to be too long, and he set about writing Feast, which allowed him to tell the stories of the intrigues of Cersei and Doran and Arianne. 

We still can't be sure how powerful his sorcery is. He prayed for a Faceless Man to give his brother the gift, so he could seize the Seastone Chair. He claims to have sailed to Asshai and Valyria, but there is doubt, at least as to the latter. He claims to have stolen a Valyrian dragon horn from warlocks of Qarth, and we have nearly every reason to believe that it is genuine, but we have yet to see it control a dragon. And it is rumored that Euron's wizards were able to employ a sorcerous wind following a blood sacrifice to the Storm God (which was apparently similar to the wind that propelled Stannis from Dragonstone to Eastwatch). And we learn in The Foresaken, Winds that 

  Hide contents

Euron has a suit of Valyrian steel armor, and appears to be collecting wizards and priests from various practices and faiths, but we are not sure of his objective in doing so. 

Margaery tells Cersei that Euron has stuck the Reach with 1,000 ships. One thousand ships might be an exaggeration, and the actual number surely includes smaller longships crewed by as few as 20 men, as well war prizes. Given that Euron likely left few ships and fighting men back in the Iron Islands, shouldn't we assume that this number is accurate? And keep in mind that number included Vicatrion's ships before he sailed off to Slaver's Bay. 

There is still plenty of time for Euron to slice his hand. 

I am not convinced that the dragon horn will work as completely as Euron appears to expect. But even if it does, why should we assume that Daenerys would have been able to control who rides which dragon? My chidren don't always listen to their mother, why should Daenerys's? Moreover, if the dragons are going to dance, and we can be pretty sure they will, one or both of the others will have to fight Daenerys on Drogon, no? 

I agree. I think he is designed to cause Aegon trouble. I expect that we will see things develop as Tyrion predicted...

Tyrion VI, Dance 22

 

Or Dany sees an opportunist trying to take her throne and who abandoned her in Mereen? Surely the one thing Dany wanted in ADWD was for somebody to come and help her? Might have to go edit my three suitors topic. Gift: Nothing, what every girl wants. 

I am aware he is mentioned but it's not enough to imply that he is going to be pirate Sauron. It points to him having a dangerous uncle.

In ASOS Dany thinks to herself that her dragonriders will be like Aegons sisters and it will be them against the world. I do think that ultimately it will be about her winning over these people and her relationship with those dragonriders that will be the focus. That could well lead to conflict if she makes mistakes. What if she turns one against her? Wouldn't that be a more profound betrayal? Much more interesting than a magic horn that steals her dragons. Things could have went very bad for Aegon if he hadn't married and won over both his sisters; one of whom he didn't actually love.

But how does he even know anything about magic? He's travelled, sure, that doesn't make you the Lord of Darkness and master of the Higher mysteries. Even if he was obsessed with all these relics and mages he shouldn't have a clue what he is doing. So his depiction as this eldritch master of arcana seems a little off.

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Thanks! Your reply is much more valuable than my discussion of my messy, overgrown yard!

We will probably see the same with Maester Marwyn, who has been mentioned just in passing by several characters, going all the way back to Game of Thrones.

Yeap. I doubt, though, that Marwyn will be anywhere near as important as Euron appears to be. The only "new" characters on that level are Jon Connington, Aegon, and the Golden Company, and those "players" are extensions of the game Varys and Illyrio have been playing since the beginning. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

34 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

I think Euron is a pretty important character, and not necessarily one coming out of the weeds.  As Lost Melnibonean says, he's been hinted at and foreshadowed since the beginning of the series.  He's also thematically necessary for a whole bunch of reasons; he's going to bring down the Wall, it seems (since Sam is conveniently in the area with the Horn of Joramun).  Moreover, he is a plausible threat to Dany and her dragons, and a supernatural one at that (since he also seems to be a skinchanger).  And for Dany especially, I think he'll represent the final choice she has to make, to be a hero or a conqueror.  He's her Valyrian heritage brought to life - a slaver, in control of powerful arcane magics, with powerful Valyrian artifacts to boot, encouraging her to indulge in the worst of her "fire and blood" instincts.  She has to reject that, and embrace her role as a liberator and breaker of chains, before she can truly earn her heroism and fly North with Jon and (probably) Tyrion to confront whatever is beyond the veil of light at the end of the world.

He's no more random than fAegon, or than Brienne was at the time.  All the Martell characters are pretty random, if you're dividing line is just "whose been around since the beginning".  But they've clearly all been on Martin's mind since Day 1 or close to it, and hints of them are scattered throughout the text, so I've got no issue with any of it.  They all serve importan narrative and thematic functions.

Interesting observation. 

[falcotron]

21 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

But how does he even know anything about magic? He's travelled, sure, that doesn't make you the Lord of Darkness and master of the Higher mysteries. Even if he was obsessed with all these relics and mages he shouldn't have a clue what he is doing. So his depiction as this eldritch master of arcana seems a little off.

How does Marwyn or Mirri or Melisandre or anyone else know anything about magic?*

Unless you're recruited by the Children or something, most of the magicians seem to be people who traveled a lot. And it makes sense. If you travel, you can seek out mages from different magical traditions, find powerful artifacts and forgotten tomes, seek the favor of dark gods and demons, drink a variety of magical potions like shade of the evening, and just generally do all kinds of other things you can't do at home.

Of course travel isn't sufficient to becoming a great mage, but it's not uncorrelated, either.

---

* Well, duh, their names start with "M", just like "magic", right?

[Tagganaro]

45 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

I think Euron is a pretty important character, and not necessarily one coming out of the weeds.  As Lost Melnibonean says, he's been hinted at and foreshadowed since the beginning of the series.  He's also thematically necessary for a whole bunch of reasons; he's going to bring down the Wall, it seems (since Sam is conveniently in the area with the Horn of Joramun).  Moreover, he is a plausible threat to Dany and her dragons, and a supernatural one at that (since he also seems to be a skinchanger).  And for Dany especially, I think he'll represent the final choice she has to make, to be a hero or a conqueror.  He's her Valyrian heritage brought to life - a slaver, in control of powerful arcane magics, with powerful Valyrian artifacts to boot, encouraging her to indulge in the worst of her "fire and blood" instincts.  She has to reject that, and embrace her role as a liberator and breaker of chains, before she can truly earn her heroism and fly North with Jon and (probably) Tyrion to confront whatever is beyond the veil of light at the end of the world.

He's no more random than fAegon, or than Brienne was at the time.  All the Martell characters are pretty random, if you're dividing line is just "whose been around since the beginning".  But they've clearly all been on Martin's mind since Day 1 or close to it, and hints of them are scattered throughout the text, so I've got no issue with any of it.  They all serve importan narrative and thematic functions.

Really interesting take as Lost Melnibonean said.  Thanks for this.  

[CornishDornish]

Euron is shaping out to be the 'apex predator' of the series. The very worst of the evildoers in a series that already has some pretty memorable complete monsters. GOT gave us Joff + The Mountain and then Vargo Hoat and Lord Twyin only to have them slowly replaced with the Freys, Boltons, people who are much worse. Now we're at the point where it looks as if even Ramsay is to be replaced with a vicious pirate who thrived at a life of rape of pillage in the very worst parts of Essos. That's even if you discount the theories surrounding him that he's a powerful skinchanger and that he's been to Valyria.

[Lost Melnibonean]

25 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Or Dany sees an opportunist trying to take her throne and who abandoned her in Mereen? Surely the one thing Dany wanted in ADWD was for somebody to come and help her? Might have to go edit my three suitors topic. Gift: Nothing, what every girl wants. 

I am aware he is mentioned but it's not enough to imply that he is going to be pirate Sauron. It points to him having a dangerous uncle.

In ASOS Dany thinks to herself that her dragonriders will be like Aegons sisters and it will be them against the world. I do think that ultimately it will be about her winning over these people and her relationship with those dragonriders that will be the focus. That could well lead to conflict if she makes mistakes. What if she turns one against her? Wouldn't that be a more profound betrayal? Much more interesting than a magic horn that steals her dragons. Things could have went very bad for Aegon if he hadn't married and won over both his sisters; one of whom he didn't actually love.

But how does he even know anything about magic? He's travelled, sure, that doesn't make you the Lord of Darkness and master of the Higher mysteries. Even if he was obsessed with all these relics and mages he shouldn't have a clue what he is doing. So his depiction as this eldritch master of arcana seems a little off.

I think most folks round these parts would agree with your first suggestion, that Daenerys will slide into home leading with her spikes. 

My point is that the author does not need to tell Euron's story before it's time to tell it. The events described in the first part of Feast occurred at the time the events in the final part of Storm. Those events in early Feast were not critical to the first main conflict, so it wasn't necessary to clue them in a book that was already 80 chapters. 

The relationship among Daenerys, her dragons, and the men (women?) that ride those dragons should be at them he heart of them hehe second main conflict. Will they all survive to play a role in the final main conflict? 

I expect the answer to your last question to be answered through the telling of the story. 

[BalerionTheCat]

16 hours ago, astonedtargaryen said:

Book Euron is a little too...high fantasy for me.

Yes. But I believe ASoIaF is a full-fledged fantasy story. There are dragons, undead, beings said to be demons, gods, magicians, legend of an empire ruled by a god, nights lasting a generation... The story is dominated by Westeros politics. But this is blinding everything else. I feel one theme of the story is: one day, every threat you ignored, while plotting your petty betrayals, will come crashing on your head.

During the 3 first books, I estimated the Greyjoys boring and insignificant, the most pitiful losers. But then came Euron. He is not like his brothers. He explored the world and found things. Or things found him. He is handling or handled by powers above everything we were used to. He is maybe a thread as big as the Others. IMO it is great of GRRM to open his story to new dangers from unexpected directions. Connecting with legends we knew, but thought only old women tales, unrelated to the present situation. I like and welcome the idea enlarging the universe of ASoIaF and making it big Fantasy.

[Ser Gareth]

Awful character.  Nothing more to say really.  He is a cartoon villain and his absurdity seems completely out of place within the tale.  Hopefully he'll die very early on and we can get back to the characters we care about.