How To Solve A Problem Like The Ironborn?

[mankytoes]

The Ironborn have been a massive pain in the arse for the rest of Westeros for all of known history. Since the Seven Kingdoms have been unified there have been several chances to reign them in- which recent events have shown to be a failure. What do you do with people like this?

The best opportunity seemed to lie with Aegon the Conqueror. When he destoyed Black Harren's line, the well established nobility of the Islands was gone. I believe it was suggested the Tullys could take control of the whole Kingdom of Isles and Rivers, which would seem a fair reward for such early Aegon supporters, but probably would have been a bit much for them to control. The Riverlands themselves can be a real pain.

I think maybe the best solution would be to put it under direct control of the crown, either by a Targ prince or a trusted ally. Having some land on the other side of Westeros would probably be militarily handy as well. By favouring any Seven converters, they could slowly wear down the influence of the Drowned God, which I think the World book demonstrated is the main cause of the destructive behaviour. There's always the risk of an uprising, but if there's one thing a bunch of savages respect, it's power, namely in the form of a big bloody dragon.

[falcotron]

I don't think the problem is as bad as Yandel makes it. (And even he says "None since the Red Kraken has posed a true threat to the Seven Kingdoms or the Iron Throne".)

But he seems to be pretty biased here. For example: "Kings they were in days gone by, and even the passage of a thousand years cannot erase the memory of a driftwood crown." But the Greyjoys weren't kings for a thousand years; they supplied only a few kings, and not for millennia. Meanwhile half the other ruling houses, like the Starks and the Arryns, actually had been kings continuously for thousands of years, and that wasn't a problem. And before Balon, none of the Greyjoys—not even the Red Kraken—tried to crown themselves.

Balon's father Quellon and his daughter Asha both wanted reforms, so the idea that they're all just like Balon because their traditions make it inevitable doesn't seem that plausible to me. I suspect Yandel is taking Balon at face value and blaming those traditions just because it lets him imply that Robert and Tywin (the current King's "father" and grandfather) aren't at all to blame for mismanaging Balon, because almost any Ironborn would be just as bad, no matter what you do with them.

And I suspect that even for Balon, most of his talk about "the old ways" is nonsense. He wants a justification to crown himself (Yandel even says "For more than gold or glory, Balon Greyjoy lusted for a crown"), and, later, to all but disown Theon, and to steal some Northern land, and so on. I don't think he believes that he's doing all that because the Drowned God cares whether he pays the gold price or the iron price; he's doing it because he wants to do it. The only difference between him and his brother Euron is that Euron doesn't even pay lip service to the traditions. (Victarion, I'll admit, probably is dumb enough to believe it…)

[astonedtargaryen]

To me, the iron born have always conjured the image of the youngest child in large family acting out for attention. The rest of the realm are their older siblings. 

[TMIFairy]

There is a thread about this, with a title along the lines of - "the ultimate solution to the Ironborn problem".

Another "opportunity lost" was Balon's Rebellion - the Iron Islands could had been e.g. given to Tywin to rule and tax until the Ironborn pay for the damage they caused at Lannisport ...

[cpg2016]

11 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

There is a thread about this, with a title along the lines of - "the ultimate solution to the Ironborn problem".

Another "opportunity lost" was Balon's Rebellion - the Iron Islands could had been e.g. given to Tywin to rule and tax until the Ironborn pay for the damage they caused at Lannisport ...

That has been tried, specifically by the Lannisters, and it failed miserably.

The solution is to continually champion "New Way" kings/Lords Paramount like Quellon Greyjoy, and intervene violently to suppress reaving rulers.  Treat the Islands like a colony and not a constituent part of the Seven Kingdoms.  Sponsor a detachment of the Royal Fleet based in the North (so as to balance Lannister/Tyrell naval power centers) so that reavers can be quickly and efficiently dealt with, and don't leave survivors.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

The solution is to continually champion "New Way" kings/Lords Paramount like Quellon Greyjoy, and intervene violently to suppress reaving rulers. 

You might be able to change them even faster if you let them alternate a few Goren-type leaders (who viciously suppress all dissent in order to win favor with the crown) among the Quellon-type leaders (who try to reform the Islands so there's no need for more Gorens).

If that's too realpolitik/evil, let them have self-determination but just prevent them from harming anyone else by preventing them from ever building a substantial navy and by allowing other lords to judge any Ironborn suspected of reaving anywhere outside the Islands.

[Фейсал]

I thought the point of having Theon as hostage was to deal with said problem?

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 hours ago, mankytoes said:

The Ironborn have been a massive pain in the arse for the rest of Westeros for all of known history. Since the Seven Kingdoms have been unified there have been several chances to reign them in- which recent events have shown to be a failure. What do you do with people like this?

The only way to deal with them is to write them differently, but then they wouldn't be much of an antagonist 

[mankytoes]

51 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The only way to deal with them is to write them differently, but then they wouldn't be much of an antagonist 

Oh. I'm kinda sticking in universe here.

[Clegane'sPup]

21 hours ago, mankytoes said:

The Ironborn have been a massive pain in the arse for the rest of Westeros for all of known history. Since the Seven Kingdoms have been unified there have been several chances to reign them in- which recent events have shown to be a failure. What do you do with people like this?

They were reined in during the Greyjoy Rebellion. That is why Eddard had Theon in his possession.

The Greyjoy’s didn’t become a recent problem until King Robb sent Theon to treat with Theon’s dad. Bad move.

Theon’s father rattled his son’s cage. Theon decides to embrace his Ironbornness leaving his ward/hostage upbringing behind.

Reaving, raping and pillaging had been relatively quite along the Westeros shore since the Greyjoy Rebellion had been put down.

Martin introduces the Greyjoy’s with their double monikers. Balon, the Lord, dies and his wicked brother returns from exile to claim the Iron Isles and wins his brother’s seat.

Ahhhh, but Euron has bigger plans than merely taking his brother’s seat. The world traveled Euron wants his brother Vic to go get the beautiful Daenerys and her dragons. Euron even gives brother Vic one of his many gifts --- a horn that binds dragons -----

Let me not forget that there are many people interested in Dany and her dragons. A few such people are Marwyn, Quaithe and Moqorro.

Dany is MIA and Barry is in charge when Vic arrives. Euron is harrying the coast around Oldtown. The Redwyne Fleet is on its way from Dragonstone and Aurane Waters absconded with King Tommen’s ships. The Golden Company has arrived in the Stormlands via ship. TBK I have no idea whose ships ferried them from one place to the other.

 

[The Mountain That Flies]

Fully annexing the Iron Islands into a would be a good start, but there is an issue with long-term governance. Whoever is left in charge there will receive significant upgrade in naval capabilities (even if the whole of their fleets are destroyed those can be rebuilt, and the natives Islanders would still have their seafaring skill), heavily tipping regional power balances.

While it would be tempting to make it a secondary "Prince of" title after Dragonstone to give the royal family greater control, how long would it take for an ambitious younger Prince to cause problems?

The best thing I can think to do with the region is to leave as Aegon the First did to choose it's own leader, but conscript a certain number of Islanders to serve in the Royal Navy on a rotating basis. They'd be useful and could be split up enough/placed under loyal  commanders.

[chrisdaw]

The change is coming from within.

To theorise how they could have been solved by an outside party, nothing short of genocide seems likely given how entrenched their culture of violence.

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Oh. I'm kinda sticking in universe here.

and in universe they are virtually undefeatable over hte course of thousands of years. People try to crush them and they rise, harder and stronger

[Brannis the Mannis]

Take their longships away and then allow the Iron Islands to be raided by anyone with no punishment. That should keep them busy. 

[Hammermen's Revolt]

I'm quoting what I still consider my greatest contribution to this forum - not that I've made many. March 2016; the same question, although most posters there favoured genocide over the direct rule suggested here. My solution:

 

Quote

It's the economy, stupid. Beating the Ironborn into submission isn't going to work, unless you kill enough of them until economics dictate the isles can sustain those who haven't died or fled.

No, the real answer is in economics, and that means:

SHEEP.

Honestly. The economics of several island nations (Iceland, the Faroe Islands, the Shetlands in the North, New Zealand in the south) was built on wool. Note that all those isles in the northern hemisphere were Viking settlements.

Sheep do well on rocky cliffs with poor grazing. Sheep provide meat, cheese, leather and wool. Seriously. The Iron Islands could be the Britain of Westeros. They've even got a Fair Isle, just google the real world equivalent and you know why that's relevant. And best of all: you don't need to sow sheep. We do not sow? Indeed, we rear!

In addition, I'd promote migration. In effect, I wouldn't need to. The Ironborn lords would do that for me, as you really don't need that many peasants hanging around to successfully rear sheep. (See: Scottish highland clearances) Let those lowborn iron islanders work in Kingslanding or wherever in Westeros, and intermingle.

Destroy their ships? What a silly idea! I'd buy them more ships! Huge, strong, slow ships. Ideal for deep sea fishing and whaling, absolutely useless for the Ironborn style of war.

Obviously, they'd never accept any of this if it came from the King. Pay the Iron Price and whatnot. But I'm sure there are plenty bribeable lords willing to be rich with a 'new' way of business.