Vaedys Targaryen

She-wolf and twin sons?

24 posts in this topic

Lyanna is known as the She-wolf for her fiery temper and she is also known as being the possible mother of Jon Snow, but there has been a theory that goes around that fAegon might actually have been her other son (twin of Jon).

It's a pretty good question of where this theory comes from, but I've been thinking of the possibility that maybe Lyanna did indeed have twins at ToJ:

Lyanna's nickname, the She-wolf, could be a possible reference to the She-wolf of Roman Mythology. The She-wolf was the wolf who found, nursed and cared for twins Romulus and Remus until they were discovered by shepherds. The two brothers grow up and decide to build Rome, but they can't quite agree on anything and Romulus decided to kill Remus and built and ran Rome himself.

Considering that GRRM is very inspired by history and mythology, and Lyanna's nickname, could it indeed be true that Lyanna did give birth to twins and the myth of Romulus and Remus could be a very good indicator/foreshadowing about what is about to happen?

Sorry it's poorly written.

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2 hours ago, Javelin Catcher said:

It could be triplets as Rheagar believed the dragon had three heads

Truer words have never been spoken!

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Romulus and Remus were adopted by the wolf. It better fits the idea that Arya will one day be regent for her neice or nephew than actually being the children of the she-wolf.

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An interesting thought. No wonder poor Lyanna died. This would lead into the horribly cliched plot of the "evil twin." I'm guessing this was Ramsey Snow.

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I don't think "She-wolf" is specific to Lyanna. Isn't Dunk going to meet some she-wolves in the next D&E novel?

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6 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Lyanna is known as the She-wolf for her fiery temper appen?

That is wolf's blood. she wolf was her reference in the knight of the laughing tree story 

6 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

and she is also known as being the possible mother of Jon Snow,

That's adorable

6 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

 but there has been a theory that goes around that fAegon might actually have been her other son (twin of Jon).

There are also theories that Euron and Benjen are everyone else and those two just travel A LOT. So take most theories here with a large dose of salt 

6 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

it's a pretty good question of where this theory comes from,

I am sure you can find the first instance of the theory if you use the search function 

6 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

but I've been thinking of the possibility that maybe Lyanna did indeed have twins at ToJ:

Lyanna's nickname, the She-wolf, could be a possible reference to the She-wolf of Roman Mythology. The She-wolf was the wolf who found, nursed and cared for twins Romulus and Remus until they were discovered by shepherds. The two brothers grow up and decide to build Rome, but they can't quite agree on anything and Romulus decided to kill Remus and built and ran Rome himself.

Interesting. do you have anything from the book that would lead you to think this was true, aside from the name reference and association? 

6 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Considering that GRRM is very inspired by history and mythology, and Lyanna's nickname, could it indeed be true that Lyanna did give birth to twins and the myth of Romulus and Remus could be a very good indicator/foreshadowing about what is about to happen?

Nope. not at all. Why would Ned work so hard to protect one nephew while leaving another with someone else? it makes no sense. Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's. (f)Aegon is either Rhaegar and Elia's or some rando baby varys found 

6 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Sorry it's poorly written.

no need to apologize. you should see some of the bits of mental gymnastics people do to make their theories work 

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6 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Lyanna's nickname, the She-wolf, could be a possible reference to the She-wolf of Roman Mythology. The She-wolf was the wolf who found, nursed and cared for twins Romulus and Remus until they were discovered by shepherds.

But that's not the same thing, it's the exact opposite.

The she-wolf didn't give birth to Romulus and Remus, but did care for them.

Lyanna did give birth to her child or children, but didn't care for them.

But if you want to try to make something of this anyway, two comments:

First, they aren't discovered by shepherds, but by a single shepherd named Faustulus, who's actually a pretty important character in the story.* He's the guy who Remus's ghost appears to, to assure everyone that Celer** is eternally accursed, but Romulus and Rome are beloved. So you might want to try to fit Faustulus to Ned or something.

Meanwhile, "the she-wolf" isn't a name or title, it's just a description. In Latin, it's just "la lupa"; "she-wolf" is an artifact of the first English translations of Ovid being done during an era when English writers had more of an inferiority complex about inflection vs. the Romance languages than they do today. To refer specifically to the she-wolf who suckled Romulus and Remus, you can say something like "the Lupercalian wolf", but that just means "the wolf-place wolf", which isn't all that exciting.***

Anyway, I doubt there's any connection here. And not just because I think the "fAegon isn't Aegon but is Aegon's brother" theory is pretty implausible in the first place.

---

* Faustulus doesn't appear in early versions of the myth, but early versions don't have any shepherds in them, except for Diodorus who has the twins just wandering into a shepherd community. (And even earlier ones don't even have the wolf, and it's not even clear how far back Remus goes…)

** Celer was one of Romulus' followers. In some versions of the story, he kills Remus without Romulus' knowledge.

*** Unless you want to try to draw a connection to the upcoming She-Wolves of Winterfell novella.

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

An interesting thought. No wonder poor Lyanna died. This would lead into the horribly cliched plot of the "evil twin." I'm guessing this was Ramsey Snow.

So Ramsey is going to kill Jon?

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9 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Lyanna is known as the She-wolf for her fiery temper and she is also known as being the possible mother of Jon Snow, but there has been a theory that goes around that fAegon might actually have been her other son (twin of Jon).

It's a pretty good question of where this theory comes from, but I've been thinking of the possibility that maybe Lyanna did indeed have twins at ToJ:

Lyanna's nickname, the She-wolf, could be a possible reference to the She-wolf of Roman Mythology. The She-wolf was the wolf who found, nursed and cared for twins Romulus and Remus until they were discovered by shepherds. The two brothers grow up and decide to build Rome, but they can't quite agree on anything and Romulus decided to kill Remus and built and ran Rome himself.

Considering that GRRM is very inspired by history and mythology, and Lyanna's nickname, could it indeed be true that Lyanna did give birth to twins and the myth of Romulus and Remus could be a very good indicator/foreshadowing about what is about to happen?

Sorry it's poorly written.

1
1

 

 

I feel it isn't much to go on. On a practical level, while we can make a good case that Jon is Lyanna's son there is nothing I can remember to suggest that he is a twin or why Ned would have split them up if there were two babies in the Tower. I also wonder why there would be a need for Jon's long-lost twin to pose as their dead half-brother.

In regards to the legend itself, the parallel doesn't completely work because the she-wolf didn't give birth to Romulus and Remus; she nursed them. The topos of the gentle and protective she-wolf crops up in several legends, myths and hagiography, from suckling babies to protecting severed heads. So, there is no reason why Romulus and Remus need be a definite parallel.

R&R isn't even the only she-wolf story associated with twins babies. If I recall correctly, some of the versions of the birth of Apollo and Artemis involves their mother turning into a she-wolf to avoid the wrath of Hera, though in others she is turned into a bird. Of course, the implication would be that Jon's twin would be a female - [Insert Jon and Dany twin theory here, I guess?] - so it might not work for Aegon. Do I think that there is a connection here? Probably not.

"She-wolf" being the moniker for Lyanna is more to do with her having "the wolf's blood" and being a Stark girl. I don't think there is any special connection between our world mythology and the character's plotline myself.

Edited by Faera
Missed a word...

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11 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

<snip

Nope. not at all. Why would Ned work so hard to protect one nephew while leaving another with someone else? it makes no sense. Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's. (f)Aegon is either Rhaegar and Elia's or some rando baby varys found 

<snip

I can answer that. He couldn't take a kid with silver hair and purple/blue eyes home and not have people asking questions. If Jon had a twin the only way Ned let the kid go elsewhere was if that baby had Valyrian looks. In which case that trip to Starfall was not just about returning a sword.

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25 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I can answer that. He couldn't take a kid with silver hair and purple/blue eyes home and not have people asking questions. If Jon had a twin the only way Ned let the kid go elsewhere was if that baby had Valyrian looks. In which case that trip to Starfall was not just about returning a sword.

He still would have thought about him, as in, the other bastard the way he thinks of jon when thinking about lyana 

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16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I can answer that. He couldn't take a kid with silver hair and purple/blue eyes home and not have people asking questions. If Jon had a twin the only way Ned let the kid go elsewhere was if that baby had Valyrian looks. In which case that trip to Starfall was not just about returning a sword.

Fine, then why keep Jon? If there was a place safer for his more Valyrian-looking twin than Winterfell, he might as well send them both to that place so as to keep them together. There is no logical reason to split them up.

Also, how would Starfall be a better place to hide Jon's twin? They'd need to explain where he came from. Plus, Ashara - the only other character around at the time we really know of aside from Arthur - subsequently went and killed herself. Even if she faked her death in order to disappear somewhere with Aegon... what would be the point or motivation to do so?

Frankly, if I were Ned and I desperately wanted to hide a kid, I'd give it to Howland to ward. I mean, he literally lives in a castle that no one can find!

Edited by Faera

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19 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He still would have thought about him, as in, the other bastard the way he thinks of jon when thinking about lyana 

He doesn't think of Jon when he thinks about Lyanna though. He doesn't think of Jon when he thinks of Rhaegar either. GRRM was very careful about not giving us Ned's thoughts on a number of things and characters and limiting the thoughts we did get.

3 hours ago, Faera said:

Fine, then why keep Jon? If there was a place safer for his more Valyrian-looking twin than Winterfell, he might as well send them both to that place so as to keep them together. There is no logical reason to split them up.

Also, how would Starfall be a better place to hide Jon's twin? They'd need to explain where he came from. Plus, Ashara - the only other character around at the time we really know of aside from Arthur - subsequently went and killed herself. Even if she faked her death in order to disappear somewhere with Aegon... what would be the point or motivation to do so?

Frankly, if I were Ned and I desperately wanted to hide a kid, I'd give it to Howland to ward. I mean, he literally lives in a castle that no one can find!

Because if you split the kids up, it increases the likelihood that one or both survive. Jon has the Stark look and Ned can absolutely take him home and let people think the kid is his. He can't do that with a kid that has Valyrian looks. Should anyone someday say something about two babies at the ToJ, Ned could say "What? Two? I only brought one kid home from Dorne."  If Lyanna made him promise to take her sons (pretty safe bet that she did), then he has to at least keep one of them or break that promise--taking only one would be bending the promise as it is.

Starfall isn't the place to hide the twin. It's a place to put him into the hands of people who can hide him. The Daynes are known to be pro-Targ and they are the closest people Ned remotely knows. Taking Aegon there is a no-brainer. The Daynes will get him safely out of Westeros and make sure he ends up with people who will take care of him and keep him well out of Robert's reach.

Ashara killing herself is by no means certain and is extremely questionable. We have no witnesses, no suicide note, and the only info we have on it comes from people who weren't there. Not to mention no body. If Allyria Dayne is Ashara's sister (and not her daughter) then Ashara's mother and father were still alive at the time. If Lord Dayne was too old to fight in the war, he might have been at Starfall himself, while the boys were off at war.

Ashara's death being faked would allow her to take baby Aegon (or any other Valyrian-looking twin) somewhere outside of Westeros and place him in the care of people who will see that he's properly looked after. She could choose to stay with him or not, and having a conveniently missing corpse allows her to go back to Westeros if she wants to and say she was saved by the gods, or some such story.

It's not true that no one can find Howland's castle. It's true that anyone who is not a crannogman can't find it on purpose, but anyone could accidentally stumble across it. And even at Greywater Watch, a kid with silver hair and purple eyes would make people ask questions. Howland's loyalty is unquestioned, but we don't know that all of his people are the same.

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10 hours ago, Faera said:

Fine, then why keep Jon? If there was a place safer for his more Valyrian-looking twin than Winterfell, he might as well send them both to that place so as to keep them together. There is no logical reason to split them up.

Also, how would Starfall be a better place to hide Jon's twin? They'd need to explain where he came from. Plus, Ashara - the only other character around at the time we really know of aside from Arthur - subsequently went and killed herself. Even if she faked her death in order to disappear somewhere with Aegon... what would be the point or motivation to do so?

Frankly, if I were Ned and I desperately wanted to hide a kid, I'd give it to Howland to ward. I mean, he literally lives in a castle that no one can find!

Over the years, there's been some speculation that Ashara Dayne is Septa Lenore.

I'm not necessarily sold on that theory, but it would explain a lot if the OP's original theory is accurate.

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15 minutes ago, PrinceHenryris said:

Over the years, there's been some speculation that Ashara Dayne is Septa Lenore.

I'm not necessarily sold on that theory, but it would explain a lot if the OP's original theory is accurate.

I still wonder why Ashara would go to all that trouble.

I am not sold on the Ashara-Lemore theory myself; I refuse to bite until I know the septa's eye-colour! But even so, if she is Lemore, it doesn't offer much in the theory that Jon is a twin.

I'm unsure, is there any real evidence that there were two babies at the Tower of Joy/that Jon is a twin, or is it just fun speculation?

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On 9/28/2017 at 5:14 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He doesn't think of Jon when he thinks about Lyanna though. He doesn't think of Jon when he thinks of Rhaegar either. GRRM was very careful about not giving us Ned's thoughts on a number of things and characters and limiting the thoughts we did get.

In chapter 35 he thinks about Lyanna and her fears of Bob, then he thinks of Jon after meeting another of Robert's bastards. There is thought and connection

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On 29/09/2017 at 10:14 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He doesn't think of Jon when he thinks about Lyanna though. He doesn't think of Jon when he thinks of Rhaegar either. GRRM was very careful about not giving us Ned's thoughts on a number of things and characters and limiting the thoughts we did get.

  • Ned and Littlefinger go to the brothel to meet the girl who has given birth to Robert's bastard daughter, Barra
  • Ned recalls Lyanna on the night of her betrothal to Robert saying "Robert will never keep to one bed" and "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature"
  • Then he is talking to Barra's mother, who seems so young and naively in love with Robert, and he promises her he will tell Robert how beautiful the baby is
  • Which leads him to think of his promises to Lyanna "as she lay dying"
  • Then he makes Barra's mother another promise, that the baby will never want for anything
  • Leading to a vision of Jon Snow's face appearing to him through the rain
  • Then some musings on Robert's bastards, and whether Cersei would truly resort to having them killed, and what was Jon Arryn's purpose in seeking them out
  • And finally "For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Re the "she wolf" - from memory, Lyanna is only called this by Meera when recounting the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and she's also referred to as the "wolf maid". Meera also calls Ned the "shy wolf" or the "quiet wolf", Benjen the "wolf cub" or "pup" and Brandon the "wild wolf". She's merely giving "wolf" identities to each member of the family for the purposes of telling the story.

Edited by maudisdottir

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21 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

In chapter 35 he thinks about Lyanna and her fears of Bob, then he thinks of Jon after meeting another of Robert's bastards. There is thought and connection

I sit corrected. 

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:
  • Ned and Littlefinger go to the brothel to meet the girl who has given birth to Robert's bastard daughter, Barra
  • Ned recalls Lyanna on the night of her betrothal to Robert saying "Robert will never keep to one bed" and "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature"
  • Then he is talking to Barra's mother, who seems so young and naively in love with Robert, and he promises her he will tell Robert how beautiful the baby is
  • Which leads him to think of his promises to Lyanna "as she lay dying"
  • Then he makes Barra's mother another promise, that the baby will never want for anything
  • Leading to a vision of Jon Snow's face appearing to him through the rain
  • Then some musings on Robert's bastards, and whether Cersei would truly resort to having them killed, and what was Jon Arryn's purpose in seeking them out
  • And finally "For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Re the "she wolf" - from memory, Lyanna is only called this by Meera when recounting the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and she's also referred to as the "wolf maid". Meera also calls Ned the "shy wolf" or the "quiet wolf", Benjen the "wolf cub" or "pup" and Brandon the "wild wolf". She's merely giving "wolf" identities to each member of the family for the purposes of telling the story.

Same.

Knew about the wolf assignments already.

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18 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I sit corrected. 

This was the nail in the coffin for any twin theories in my book. Jon is the only child of Rhaegar and Lyanna 

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