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Dragons, only death can pay for life.


AlaskanSandman

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8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No, I mean the text in the book where they refer to the second life as a "rebirth" 

Interesting hill you've chosen here. I'm not even sure if you're splitting hairs between rebirth or reborn, or if you're riding your definition of rebirth as the one and only.

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31 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No, I mean the text in the book where they refer to the second life as a "rebirth" 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Davos III

The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!"

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime V

Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

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A Storm of Swords - Davos V

She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me.

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

Open your mouth and drink deep of god's blessing. Fill your lungs with water, that you may die and be reborn. It does no good to fight."

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A Feast for Crows - The Soiled Knight

"The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn.

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

He did not disappoint her. "The Faith Militant reborn . . . that would be the answer to three hundred years of prayer, Your Grace. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

"Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"
"Do I have to be reborn in this same body?" asked Tyrion. The crowd was growing thicker. He could feel them pressing in around them. "Who is Benerro?"

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

The day that Theon Greyjoy died, to be reborn as Reek. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with shriek.

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A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

We have no food for them, and they are too young to help the king my husband in his wars. Better that they be reborn into the light."
That was just a softer way of saying let them die.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

Yet the Great Empire of the Dawn was not reborn, for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day. Or so the men and women of the Further East believe.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Afterword 

Pretenders strive to steal the Iron Throne, and disturbing rumors of dragons reborn trickle in from the east.

Maybe because Beric and Cat were reborn through the Kiss of Fire and Varamyr tried in a different way. 

The above quotes should show that yes, the term is used, and loosely. 

The dragons were even reborn. 

Jon will be reborn.

As Tyrion ask, "do i have to be reborn in this same body".  Answer= no, no you dont. As your rebirth can either be back into your own body as in the case of Beric, Cat and probably soon to be Jon. Or you can take an animal and be reborn in them. 

How do you get a wholly new body???

Well i cover that in my other thread on what the Others want. Basically, to be reborn in Dany and Jon's unborn child (as jon is dead and dany is alive) producing the "Never born". Which is what i think the Others want to break the curse against them and be human again. IMO so far.

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33 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Interesting hill you've chosen here. I'm not even sure if you're splitting hairs between rebirth or reborn, or if you're riding your definition of rebirth as the one and only.

So no quotes. Got it. Second life is not in any way a "rebirth" 

23 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Maybe because Beric and Cat were reborn through the Kiss of Fire and Varamyr tried in a different way. 

I was referring to Chrisdaw's assertion that second life was rebirth. Nothing in the quotes you provided actually have someone being reborn or refer to the second life as a rebirth. Cat and beric were not reborn, they were resurrected. Brought back from death. 

26 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The above quotes should show that yes, the term is used, and loosely. 

I was referring to specifics about the rebirth of Azor ahai 

29 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 

 

The dragons were even reborn. 

Jon will be reborn.

The dragons are reborn? and if Jon is dead, he will be resurrected 

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9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So no quotes. Got it. Second life is not in any way a "rebirth" 

I was referring to Chrisdaw's assertion that second life was rebirth. Nothing in the quotes you provided actually have someone being reborn or refer to the second life as a rebirth. Cat and beric were not reborn, they were resurrected. Brought back from death. 

I was referring to specifics about the rebirth of Azor ahai 

The dragons are reborn? and if Jon is dead, he will be resurrected 

Yea i think you missed the point. You are spitting hairs. How is a rebirth or resurrection different? Your spitting hairs with terminology. Well it's not blue, it's cobalt. That's the equivalent of what your saying.

So answer me this. If Varamyr had a brain dead body at his disposal when he died that he could enter, would that count as a resurrected/reborn for you? or does he actually need to pop out the womb as a baby for you? And if so, does said baby need to have his memories for it to count or just his soul?

Dragons have been resurrected, and reborn into the world.

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28 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea i think you missed the point. You are spitting hairs. How is a rebirth or resurrection different? Your spitting hairs with terminology. Well it's not blue, it's cobalt. That's the equivalent of what your saying.

So answer me this. If Varamyr had a brain dead body at his disposal when he died that he could enter, would that count as a resurrected/reborn for you? or does he actually need to pop out the womb as a baby for you? And if so, does said baby need to have his memories for it to count or just his soul?

Dragons have been resurrected, and reborn into the world.

 

I think this is a very neat theory - that a soul is needed to enter a dragon egg before the egg can be hatched. And that that soul can be provided by a death.

Whether that's really what's happening I don't know but it could be.

If I understand your theory right you hypothize that analogous to the Varamyr chapter a Targ skinchanger's soul in death quasi automatically looks around for a suitable vessel to switch into and then latches on to any available nearby dragon egg, kind of 'fertilizing' it for lack of a better word.

I personally very much like this idea.

However I must also say that I don't see a lot of evidence for it: The Varamyr chapter would make sense in other ways too (meaning it makes sense in setting up whatever will happen to Jon). It does not so far seem to be related to dragons. So that is not really a piece of evidence here.

As to the part of the theory that a death is needed for a soul to fertilize a dragon egg this could be true even if the sacrifice did not have to be a skinchanger.

What I am saying is that there could be another connection between Targs and dragons (or maybe even between other people than Targs and dragons or at least dragon eggs). A connection that is not necessarily the same as the warging or skinchanging ability of some northern families. For example it could be a connection by fire sacrifice. Or by bloodline. or something anybody has even.

In that case the deaths you have uncovered that correspond with later hatchings of dragons could be sacrifices, yes - but be related to the hatching in - whatever way, not necessarily a skinchanger way.

That would make the theory easier because you would not have to postulate that Viserys was a skinchanger, Drogo was a skinchanger, Rhaego was a skinchanger and all the other persons whose deaths you discovered also were skinchangers.

I am not saying its impossible all those persons were secret skinchangers - but it seems a bit - hm - of a stretch.

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55 minutes ago, Amris said:

 

I think this is a very neat theory - that a soul is needed to enter a dragon egg before the egg can be hatched. And that that soul can be provided by a death.

Whether that's really what's happening I don't know but it could be.

If I understand your theory right you hypothize that analogous to the Varamyr chapter a Targ skinchanger's soul in death quasi automatically looks around for a suitable vessel to switch into and then latches on to any available nearby dragon egg, kind of 'fertilizing' it for lack of a better word.

I personally very much like this idea.

However I must also say that I don't see a lot of evidence for it: The Varamyr chapter would make sense in other ways too (meaning it makes sense in setting up whatever will happen to Jon). It does not so far seem to be related to dragons. So that is not really a piece of evidence here.

As to the part of the theory that a death is needed for a soul to fertilize a dragon egg this could be true even if the sacrifice did not have to be a skinchanger.

What I am saying is that there could be another connection between Targs and dragons (or maybe even between other people than Targs and dragons or at least dragon eggs). A connection that is not necessarily the same as the warging or skinchanging ability of some northern families. For example it could be a connection by fire sacrifice. Or by bloodline. or something anybody has even.

In that case the deaths you have uncovered that correspond with later hatchings of dragons could be sacrifices, yes - but be related to the hatching in - whatever way, not necessarily a skinchanger way.

That would make the theory easier because you would not have to postulate that Viserys was a skinchanger, Drogo was a skinchanger, Rhaego was a skinchanger and all the other persons whose deaths you discovered also were skinchangers.

I am not saying its impossible all those persons were secret skinchangers - but it seems a bit - hm - of a stretch.

Well not quite a full on theory yet. More just an observation and opinion at this point hahah that's why i wanted to present it here and flush it out more.

The case for skinchangers isn't a stretch though really and why i went there first as most people seem to have a similar opinion that Dragon riding and Warging/Skin changing must be a linked ability. Dragon riders and Wargs just being more specific different types of skinchangers. Most likely the humans blood being mixed with that of the Direwolf or Dragon. Starting likely by some skinchanger breaking the rules of warging and probably mating while in the skin of an animal, as described in Varamyrs chapter. 

So under "that" theory i guess yes, skinchangers souls go into limbo. Most like the children go into the Weirwood trees and exist as part of the network. Varamyr could've chose one of his animals but didn't wanna live out the rest of his life as an animal. So he tried to take the body of some one else, which posed problems as the person was still alive and was able to fight him off. So he couldn't find anything and faded. Souls going into swords? I have a theory on that im about to post soon, but basically the swords are made with weirwoods to get the carbon into the Iron from the meteorite to make steel, but magic steel. Valyrian steel is made from the black trees in essos with blue leaves, Dawn is from Weirwoods. So that is why souls that can go into the trees can go into the swords. Humans found a way to pervert the magic of the children, to extend their life with out having to go into the childrens network. 

This could possible be what's happening here.

Rhaego and Viserys are easier as they're Targs and should be able to ride a dragon. Drogo is speculation as to him being a skinchanger.

It does bring up an interesting set of questions still looming and doesn't fully answer the picture. So if their spirits did go into them. What's up with the fire sacrifice or Kiss of fire resurrections? Where did Cat's soul go while her body rotted? Or is that type of magic different than what we're seeing with skinchangers and second life's. 

The part about the egg moving and such brought my attention to it though as the egg is moving before the pyre event. After Viserys has died, and its the egg named after him. Just very coincidental? maybe. So that's why i went looking for missing Targs. Cause if im reading those quotes right, it means there should be a dead Targ for every dragon that pops up. So far, it's looking like that as explained by Jaehaerys and Alysannes dragons.  Which means i should also look for dragons displaying interesting behaviors that might be traceable back to their sacrificee. The first part i noticed though does seem backed up though so far. 

So i wanna analyze here every thing surrounding the dragons hatching. The funeral pyre and everything leading up to it. Also have to look for what may have been different from Summerhall. Just because their souls went into the eggs, doesn't explain why they hatched and all this worked for Dany and not before. What was different. If this is right though, there should be more stuff lining up. If not, we should be able to spot it and ultimately should fall apart to nothing.

Like they say fire and blood is needed. Well Dany did have fire but was their really a blood sacrifice? Does burning some one count as a blood sacrifice? Long as the blood is consumed by the flames then it still counts? Mirri was the only person alive that can be counted as sacrificed so i guess king's blood doesn't matter? What was up with Mirr's chant? Just fire protection for Dany? Or a hatching/birthing song? Is an incubation period still needed with a dragon hatcher?

The pyre definitely seemed to be the event that officially hatched them though, so what all still happened? Im totally open to ideas. I even posted extra quotes to support the idea of Drogo being resurrected.

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well not quite a full on theory yet. More just an observation and opinion at this point hahah that's why i wanted to present it here and flush it out more.

The case for skinchangers isn't a stretch though really and why i went there first as most people seem to have a similar opinion that Dragon riding and Warging/Skin changing must be a linked ability. Dragon riders and Wargs just being more specific different types of skinchangers. Most likely the humans blood being mixed with that of the Direwolf or Dragon. Starting likely by some skinchanger breaking the rules of warging and probably mating while in the skin of an animal, as described in Varamyrs chapter. 

So under "that" theory i guess yes, skinchangers souls go into limbo. Most like the children go into the Weirwood trees and exist as part of the network. Varamyr could've chose one of his animals but didn't wanna live out the rest of his life as an animal. So he tried to take the body of some one else, which posed problems as the person was still alive and was able to fight him off. So he couldn't find anything and faded. Souls going into swords? I have a theory on that im about to post soon, but basically the swords are made with weirwoods to get the carbon into the Iron from the meteorite to make steel, but magic steel. Valyrian steel is made from the black trees in essos with blue leaves, Dawn is from Weirwoods. So that is why souls that can go into the trees can go into the swords. Humans found a way to pervert the magic of the children, to extend their life with out having to go into the childrens network. 

This could possible be what's happening here.

Rhaego and Viserys are easier as they're Targs and should be able to ride a dragon. Drogo is speculation as to him being a skinchanger.

It does bring up an interesting set of questions still looming and doesn't fully answer the picture. So if their spirits did go into them. What's up with the fire sacrifice or Kiss of fire resurrections? Where did Cat's soul go while her body rotted? Or is that type of magic different than what we're seeing with skinchangers and second life's. 

The part about the egg moving and such brought my attention to it though as the egg is moving before the pyre event. After Viserys has died, and its the egg named after him. Just very coincidental? maybe. So that's why i went looking for missing Targs. Cause if im reading those quotes right, it means there should be a dead Targ for every dragon that pops up. So far, it's looking like that as explained by Jaehaerys and Alysannes dragons.  Which means i should also look for dragons displaying interesting behaviors that might be traceable back to their sacrificee. The first part i noticed though does seem backed up though so far. 

So i wanna analyze here every thing surrounding the dragons hatching. The funeral pyre and everything leading up to it. Also have to look for what may have been different from Summerhall. Just because their souls went into the eggs, doesn't explain why they hatched and all this worked for Dany and not before. What was different. If this is right though, there should be more stuff lining up. If not, we should be able to spot it and ultimately should fall apart to nothing.

Like they say fire and blood is needed. Well Dany did have fire but was their really a blood sacrifice? Does burning some one count as a blood sacrifice? Long as the blood is consumed by the flames then it still counts? Mirri was the only person alive that can be counted as sacrificed so i guess king's blood doesn't matter? What was up with Mirr's chant? Just fire protection for Dany? Or a hatching/birthing song? Is an incubation period still needed with a dragon hatcher?

The pyre definitely seemed to be the event that officially hatched them though, so what all still happened? Im totally open to ideas. I even posted extra quotes to support the idea of Drogo being resurrected.

And as you rightly pointed out the eggs seemed to be alive before the pyre. And not just Viserion's egg: the other two also. In the same scene you mentioned with Viserion's egg Dany goes to the other two eggs which are still in the box and finds that they too are strangely hot. It is a bit ambigous though: Dany feels them hot, to Jorah they are cold.

At this point Viserys was of course dead. So it is possible that his soul had switched into the Viserion egg as you assume.

Rhaego was also dead. Indeed he had died while Dany was unconscious just before this scene with the eggs. His soul could have gone into the Rhaegal egg.

Drogo was technically still alive. Dany had not smothered him yet. However as we know he was a vegetable. So it is not completely impossible to assume his soul was not home anymore. Which means it could have gone into the Drogon egg. Maybe Mirri's spells

So that makes it possible that the souls of all three persons had already entered the eggs before Dany ever put them on the pyre. Or anyways they were already fertilized and alive.

Would they have hatched without the pyre?

I don't think so. That's because in the pyre scene Dany thinks she had already suspected the truth: the braziers she had used before had not been hot enough (to hatch the eggs).

What's with the Mirri sacrifice I am not sure either. Since the eggs were already fertilized (a death paid for each of them already) and the fire was now hot enough it sounds like they might possibly have hatched even without Mirri being burned and Dany walking into the pyre?

However my impression of the scene is that Dany is indeed the Princess that was Promised and that this means she has some innate ability to make dragon eggs hatch and she was needed in the pyre. And Mirri's sacrifice was there for fire protection and as a kind of catalyst in helping the hatchlings break out of their stone prisons.

About the skinchanging topic: I have read the speculation about Drogo being a skinchanger. But it does not satisfy me. A theory that has a hole (most sacrifices being Targs but Drogo not being one thus not fitting the pattern) is unsatisfying. And then filling that hole with wholesale speculation (by giving him a skinchanging ability to somehow make him fit the pattern) is even more unsatisfying.

To me Drogo breaks the hypothetical skinchanging pattern. Which - to me - means it is likely wrong.

That there may be a special connection between Targs and dragons however I can easily see. That that connection may have some similarity to northern family skinchanging I could get onboard with. But Drogo seems to indicate that whatever that connection between Targs and dragons is: it is not an absolutely essential prerequisite for someone's soul to wander into a dragon. Non-Targs, non-skinchangers whatever also seem to be able to do it under the right circumstance (like when a fire maegi is weaving spells maybe). Maybe this body-switching that skinchangers do is not quite as unique as we think and souls in the GRRM universe generally have at least a latent ability to go - somewhere. Skinchanger souls just can do it more easily and purposefully.

 

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4 minutes ago, Amris said:

And as you rightly pointed out the eggs seemed to be alive before the pyre. And not just Viserion's egg: the other two also. In the same scene you mentioned with Viserion's egg Dany goes to the other two eggs which are still in the box and finds that they too are strangely hot. It is a bit ambigous though: Dany feels them hot, to Jorah they are cold.

At this point Viserys was of course dead. So it is possible that his soul had switched into the Viserion egg as you assume.

Rhaego was also dead. Indeed he had died while Dany was unconscious just before this scene with the eggs. His soul could have gone into the Rhaegal egg.

Drogo was technically still alive. Dany had not smothered him yet. However as we know he was a vegetable. So it is not completely impossible to assume his soul was not home anymore. Which means it could have gone into the Drogon egg. Maybe Mirri's spells

So that makes it possible that the souls of all three persons had already entered the eggs before Dany ever put them on the pyre. Or anyways they were already fertilized and alive.

Would they have hatched without the pyre?

I don't think so. That's because in the pyre scene Dany thinks she had already suspected the truth: the braziers she had used before had not been hot enough (to hatch the eggs).

What's with the Mirri sacrifice I am not sure either. Since the eggs were already fertilized (a death paid for each of them already) and the fire was now hot enough it sounds like they might possibly have hatched even without Mirri being burned and Dany walking into the pyre?

However my impression of the scene is that Dany is indeed the Princess that was Promised and that this means she has some innate ability to make dragon eggs hatch and she was needed in the pyre. And Mirri's sacrifice was there for fire protection and as a kind of catalyst in helping the hatchlings break out of their stone prisons.

About the skinchanging topic: I have read the speculation about Drogo being a skinchanger. But it does not satisfy me. A theory that has a hole (most sacrifices being Targs but Drogo not being one thus not fitting the pattern) is unsatisfying. And then filling that hole with wholesale speculation (by giving him a skinchanging ability to somehow make him fit the pattern) is even more unsatisfying.

To me Drogo breaks the hypothetical skinchanging pattern. Which - to me - means it is rightly wrong.

That there may be a special connection between Targs and dragons however I can easily see. That that connection may have some similarity to northern family skinchanging I could get onboard with. But Drogo seems to indicate that whatever that connection between Targs and dragons is: it is not an absolutely essential prerequisite for someone's soul to wander into a dragon. Non-Targs, non-skinchangers whatever also seem to be able to do it under the right circumstance (like when a fire maegi is weaving spells maybe). Maybe this body-switching that skinchangers do is not quite as unique as we think and souls in the GRRM universe generally have at least a latent ability to go - somewhere. Skinchanger souls just can do it more easily and purposefully.

 

I agree the Drogo part is the biggest issue as i need to find some more textual evidence my self that may suggest he had a skin changing ability.

That may be it too and i like that in and of it self just for the fact that the rest of us should still have souls that leave us. I think Qyburn talks about this and i should look it up and his Mountain experiments. The rest does all seem to fit as you point out though. 

Do you have thoughts on any implications this might have to the HOTU prophecy against Mirri's Prophecy regarding Drogo's return and him already being the first 2 mounts and how maybe he could return to be the 3rd mount?

 

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Drogo is not a skin changer anymore than Rhaego or Viserys. A person doesn't need to be a skinchanger to do this, they need magic and sacrifice, thus bloodmagic. What MMD, blood magic practitioner, did in that tent was force Drogo from his skin. Hence Drogo survives but bums around like he doesn't have a soul, because he doesn't, he is in the same state as any other skin changer who has slipped their human body. But instead of being lost to the eternal void as Varamyr feared for himself and MMD most likely intended for Drogo, Drogo managed to get his soul into the egg.

Rhaego is key, none of this happens without his sacrifice, Drogo doesn't make it in the egg without him. He seems to pave the way so that non Targ Drogo can get in, why exactly, the process, I'm not sure, but it is what it is. How you can tell this primarily but not exclusively is because Euron, he's trying to get into the dragon and he understands he needs a child of his and Targ blood, just like Drogo. He's on the quest to recreate the pyre.

Rhaego caused a bit of cross contamination, he made it into the egg but some dragon made it into Rhaego, whilst he was in the womb, thus Dany's blood which is Rhaego's blood while he is in the womb is contaminated with dragon's blood. Hence Dany surviving a funeral pyre and Rhaego popping out like a baby dragon.

This is how Valyrians first did it, they sacrificed a child and formed a blood bond, they become kin to dragons, traded their blood for fire. It is what their horn now Euron's does, dragonbinder, blood for fire, it'll kill you but it'll allow you into a fucking dragon. It's why the dragonriders didn't keep any religion, they don't need it, they know how to get to the second life. A second life as the most powerful being on the planet, it is ascendancy, godhood, hence why they name the dragons gods. Hence what Euron is trying to do and why it is described the way it is.

It is not just eggs, it could work with any living dragon, and it isn't one human soul per dragon. Rhaego is actually inside Drogon with Drogo, they are two heads of the dragon, Dany joining them will make the third and then will be the super dragon that'll end the long night.

For further reading,

or the first link in my sig for everything comprehensively.

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18 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I agree the Drogo part is the biggest issue as i need to find some more textual evidence my self that may suggest he had a skin changing ability.

That may be it too and i like that in and of it self just for the fact that the rest of us should still have souls that leave us. I think Qyburn talks about this and i should look it up and his Mountain experiments. The rest does all seem to fit as you point out though. 

Do you have thoughts on any implications this might have to the HOTU prophecy against Mirri's Prophecy regarding Drogo's return and him already being the first 2 mounts and how maybe he could return to be the 3rd mount?

 

 

About Mirri's prophecy: I suppose Drogo returns as Drogon.  And that return of Drogo's (in a metaphorical way) happens twice in the story: once ironically immediately after Mirri's death - when Drogon hatches - and the second time during Dany's vision quest in the Dothraki Sea when he finally answers her summons.

As to the HotU prophecy: I bet Drogon/Drogo is one of the three mounts (no surprise there I suppose). Just one however. Not two or three.

I think it possible that the three mounts are the three dragons and that the 'you' in the prophecy is not singular (meaning just Dany) but plural and means 'you' three heads of the dragon must ride the three mounts (dragons). But I have not yet found a satisfying way of fitting the 3x3 fires/mounts/treasons verse triplets to the 3x3 daughter of death/slayer of lies/bride of fire vision triplets. Which in turn means I can't even be sure if the three mounts really are the dragons (or if all of them are). What I don't subscribe to is that the mounts are not really mounts but rather Dany's lovers or husbands or whatever. Except insofar as I think that an excellent case can be made for Drogon indeed being a kind of reborn Drogo. That still does not mean that Drogo is two of the mounts though. Drogon is one mount. The other two are either the other two dragons or Dany's Silver and a Direwolf or whatever. The dragons fit best IMO.

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18 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Shouldn't we first find the warrior who draws a burning sword from the fire ? If the answer is Dany, the answer to Lightbringer are Dragons. 

I can't see a dragon egg drawn out of a fire in the future. 

Dany is Azor Ahai.  I don't believe anybody else is going to wake dragons from stone.  Mind you, this happened while the red comet was passing.  Another marker of Azor Ahai.  

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4 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany is Azor Ahai.  I don't believe anybody else is going to wake dragons from stone.  Mind you, this happened while the red comet was passing.  Another marker of Azor Ahai.  

Yes yes yes. As I said repeatedly a warrior draws Lightbringer out of the fire. I have reread the scene (Dany X) and Dany is either Lightbringer or the warrior. In which case Jorah is AA. 

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12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Yes yes yes. As I said repeatedly a warrior draws Lightbringer out of the fire. I have reread the scene (Dany X) and Dany is either Lightbringer or the warrior. In which case Jorah is AA. 

Jorah didn't draw anything out of the fire.  Dany woke the dragons from petrified dragon eggs, sacrificed her love, and did this while the red comet was in the sky.  

If we are to believe the prophecies from the undying ones, Dany will do this two more times.  Light a fire means to sacrifice a traitor to the flames in exchange for something.  The dragons are weapons that should prove effective against the Others.  They may be useful in winning the fight.  Winning the fight is the first step.  The walking wights will need to be sent to the afterlife soon after the Others are gone.  The people will still have to survive a long, brutal winter.  The second flame will bring about the permanent death to the walking wights.  *The third fire will call the red comet and switch the seasons back to spring.  Something to love could refer to a man or simply love for life, in which case, spring represents life.

*Mind, I don't think humans can have enough power to shift an entire climate, but belief is important and gives hope for the people.  It could be that the red comet will lead the people to the east, where they can hold out until spring comes again.

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22 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jorah didn't draw anything out of the fire. 

Nobody said that. 

But while we are at it. Why is it that the warrior from the prophecy is always equated with AA from the prophecy ? I don't understand it. it's everywhere. There are theories telling Ser Davos is AA because he drew a burning sword from the fire. That is literally* the warrior role. 

 

*as in literally literally. That is exactly how the prophecy is written down in the book.

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23 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Viserion-Visery

Rhaegel-Rhaego (named for Rhaegar)

Drogon-Drogo

My impression has always been that human deaths paid for the dragons lives, and that Drogo passed into Drogon.

For the others, though, I see Viserion as Rhaego. Look at the way he is always clinging to Dany and climbing on her the moment they get together. Like a baby clinging to it's mother.

Rhaegel, therefore, is MMD. Notice how Rhaegel is rather aloof, almost as it he (she?) is not very trusting of Dany. Not that he is not devoted to Dany, but that there is an undercurrent of wariness there.

I'll bet that before the series is over, we'll find that Rhaego's remains were burned in the pyre as well. Three deaths, three lives.

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5 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jorah didn't draw anything out of the fire.  Dany woke the dragons from petrified dragon eggs, sacrificed her love, and did this while the red comet was in the sky.  

If we are to believe the prophecies from the undying ones, Dany will do this two more times.  Light a fire means to sacrifice a traitor to the flames in exchange for something.  The dragons are weapons that should prove effective against the Others.  They may be useful in winning the fight.  Winning the fight is the first step.  The walking wights will need to be sent to the afterlife soon after the Others are gone.  The people will still have to survive a long, brutal winter.  The second flame will bring about the permanent death to the walking wights.  *The third fire will call the red comet and switch the seasons back to spring.  Something to love could refer to a man or simply love for life, in which case, spring represents life.

*Mind, I don't think humans can have enough power to shift an entire climate, but belief is important and gives hope for the people.  It could be that the red comet will lead the people to the east, where they can hold out until spring comes again.

Dont forget reborn in the sea (Dothraki Sea)

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My impression has always been that human deaths paid for the dragons lives, and that Drogo passed into Drogon.

For the others, though, I see Viserion as Rhaego. Look at the way he is always clinging to Dany and climbing on her the moment they get together. Like a baby clinging to it's mother.

Rhaegel, therefore, is MMD. Notice how Rhaegel is rather aloof, almost as it he (she?) is not very trusting of Dany. Not that he is not devoted to Dany, but that there is an undercurrent of wariness there.

I'll bet that before the series is over, we'll find that Rhaego's remains were burned in the pyre as well. Three deaths, three lives.

Yea i kinda assumed his remains had to be in the flames too.

Interesting catch on behaviors of the dragons, ill have to look more at their behavior when i get a chance. Just popping in from work right now. 

I wanna look for behaviors of older dragons too and who maybe they may go to, if any.

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5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Yes yes yes. As I said repeatedly a warrior draws Lightbringer out of the fire. I have reread the scene (Dany X) and Dany is either Lightbringer or the warrior. In which case Jorah is AA. 

I havn't really given thought to the difference if any between AA and TPTWP yet. The last hero i can see as different maybe but may not. I can see though there is definitely some debate here on those roles. I used to give thought to the 3 heads of the dragon, but honestly have put that to the back burner, as Jon Dany and Tyrion each riding dragons against the Others just sounds so cliche. The Chad Summer Child in me wants it, but i doubt it hahah for now im handling prophecies like hot potatoe.

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13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Drogo is not a skin changer anymore than Rhaego or Viserys. A person doesn't need to be a skinchanger to do this, they need magic and sacrifice, thus bloodmagic. What MMD, blood magic practitioner, did in that tent was force Drogo from his skin. Hence Drogo survives but bums around like he doesn't have a soul, because he doesn't, he is in the same state as any other skin changer who has slipped their human body. But instead of being lost to the eternal void as Varamyr feared for himself and MMD most likely intended for Drogo, Drogo managed to get his soul into the egg.

Rhaego is key, none of this happens without his sacrifice, Drogo doesn't make it in the egg without him. He seems to pave the way so that non Targ Drogo can get in, why exactly, the process, I'm not sure, but it is what it is. How you can tell this primarily but not exclusively is because Euron, he's trying to get into the dragon and he understands he needs a child of his and Targ blood, just like Drogo. He's on the quest to recreate the pyre.

Rhaego caused a bit of cross contamination, he made it into the egg but some dragon made it into Rhaego, whilst he was in the womb, thus Dany's blood which is Rhaego's blood while he is in the womb is contaminated with dragon's blood. Hence Dany surviving a funeral pyre and Rhaego popping out like a baby dragon.

This is how Valyrians first did it, they sacrificed a child and formed a blood bond, they become kin to dragons, traded their blood for fire. It is what their horn now Euron's does, dragonbinder, blood for fire, it'll kill you but it'll allow you into a fucking dragon. It's why the dragonriders didn't keep any religion, they don't need it, they know how to get to the second life. A second life as the most powerful being on the planet, it is ascendancy, godhood, hence why they name the dragons gods. Hence what Euron is trying to do and why it is described the way it is.

It is not just eggs, it could work with any living dragon, and it isn't one human soul per dragon. Rhaego is actually inside Drogon with Drogo, they are two heads of the dragon, Dany joining them will make the third and then will be the super dragon that'll end the long night.

For further reading,

or the first link in my sig for everything comprehensively.

Thats an interesting note. Nice catch. Ill check out your other threads when i get off work :)

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