Dragons, only death can pay for life.

[chrisdaw]

People are taking events occurred and trying to match them with prophecies. The problem with that is the assumption the prophecies have already been fulfilled. Think of it from a story telling perspective, having the events occur at the start of a book and then telling everyone afterwards about the prophecies those events apparently fulfilled is arse about face.

The assumption may come partly because we don't have time for another character to be born and become a hero. But that's what the point of this topic debunks, the saviour isn't going to be a hero that grows to adult age and does heroic things. The saviour is another Rhaego, the saviour is sacrifice, their birth and death will wake dragons and feed their flame, as Rhaego does.

These prophecies have not yet occurred, their coming to fruition will be the climax of the series, standard storytelling.

[Amris]

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Drogo is not a skin changer anymore than Rhaego or Viserys. A person doesn't need to be a skinchanger to do this, they need magic and sacrifice, thus bloodmagic. What MMD, blood magic practitioner, did in that tent was force Drogo from his skin. Hence Drogo survives but bums around like he doesn't have a soul, because he doesn't, he is in the same state as any other skin changer who has slipped their human body. But instead of being lost to the eternal void as Varamyr feared for himself and MMD most likely intended for Drogo, Drogo managed to get his soul into the egg.

Rhaego is key, none of this happens without his sacrifice, Drogo doesn't make it in the egg without him. He seems to pave the way so that non Targ Drogo can get in, why exactly, the process, I'm not sure, but it is what it is. How you can tell this primarily but not exclusively is because Euron, he's trying to get into the dragon and he understands he needs a child of his and Targ blood, just like Drogo. He's on the quest to recreate the pyre.

Rhaego caused a bit of cross contamination, he made it into the egg but some dragon made it into Rhaego, whilst he was in the womb, thus Dany's blood which is Rhaego's blood while he is in the womb is contaminated with dragon's blood. Hence Dany surviving a funeral pyre and Rhaego popping out like a baby dragon.

This is how Valyrians first did it, they sacrificed a child and formed a blood bond, they become kin to dragons, traded their blood for fire. It is what their horn now Euron's does, dragonbinder, blood for fire, it'll kill you but it'll allow you into a fucking dragon. It's why the dragonriders didn't keep any religion, they don't need it, they know how to get to the second life. A second life as the most powerful being on the planet, it is ascendancy, godhood, hence why they name the dragons gods. Hence what Euron is trying to do and why it is described the way it is.

It is not just eggs, it could work with any living dragon, and it isn't one human soul per dragon. Rhaego is actually inside Drogon with Drogo, they are two heads of the dragon, Dany joining them will make the third and then will be the super dragon that'll end the long night.

For further reading,

or the first link in my sig for everything comprehensively.

I like your idea of how Rhaego's sacrifice might have caused Dany's temporary fire resistance.

I also like your idea (if I understand you right that is) that Mirri's spells and the sacrifice of Drogo and Rhaego and the following pyre scene may have accidently recreated how the Valyrians first bonded with dragons.

However I have to say I don't see real evidence for it either: (evidence is not the same as it fits the observations.) There is no way we can claim 'this is definitely what happened' here as you are doing. But it is one possible explanation for what's going on in those scenes and I like it.

What I can't get on board with is your Stone Drogon theory:

I have read through that link you posted above, those various parts you have pulled together from all over the books. Yes, those scenes or parts of scenes may each be pieces of something (or not, since not everything GRRM writes is foreshadowing). At any rate: the pieces seem unrelated. More like pieces from various different jiggsaw puzzles that you have tried to fit together but that don't really. In short: while I obviously can't rule out Drogon will be infected with greyscale (since 2 books are still missing) your reasoning seems forced to me.

And in that ferry scene which forms the biggest part of your reasoning the only thing that reminds of the HotU prophecy is a tower from which smoke rises.

There are various smoking towers in the series. If you claim this is the one then you need sound reasoning for it.

When I read the OP of the Drogon - Stone Drogon link you provided to guide us to your theory I tried to find your reasoning for why this tower that smokes (and not one of the other smoking towers) is the smoking tower from the HotU vision.

You write there: "First off the smoking stone tower, signalling the tower Stone Drogon is born from in the vision and the tower Euron leaps from."

That however is not reasoning. That is a conclusion.

Ok - it is a valid method of argumentation to put a conclusion first and then follow up with the reasoning that leads to it.

So I continued reading that OP of yours. But - no reasoning followed

Nothing that presents any evidence as to why you believe that tower at the ferry landing is the smoking tower from Dany's HotU vision. Well - aside from what you present in your conclusion (first sentence): that it smokes. As I said however: there are various smoking towers in the series. And I know at least one for which a solid chain of reasoning can be made that explains the whole 'from a smoking tower a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire' sentence from the HotU AND the reason why this sentence is part of the 'slayer of lies' triplet.

Look at the the tower at the ferry landing and then at the HotU:

                                    'from a smoking tower a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire'.

The ferry scene does not have a stone beast on or at least next to a smoking tower. So nothing can take wing from it. In fact the ferry scene does not have a stone beast at all. The scene also has no wings. It has nothing taking flight. It has no shadow fire.

For lack of a beast in the scene you have resorted to the golden coins Sandor pays to the ferryman. (Or at least that is how I understand you).

That feels forced, sorry. Yes, golden coins are referred to as dragons in the books.

But in this scene they aren't stone beasts. You could make a case for them being beasts I suppose - but stone beasts? No. Also the coins do not take flight (let alone 'from' the smoking tower). They don't even get thrown or anything. And they do not in this scene are associated with any sort of fire (let alone shadow fire). What's more: there are three of them (coins that is). But the prophecy speaks of 'a' stone beast, singular, that takes wing from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire. Nothing of that happening here in even the most metaphorical of ways.

I still like that you point out the ferry scene. Especially the tree and it's possibly symbolizing a kraken as it 'attacks' the ferry. This is real cool. It does not have anything - at all - to do with the stone beast from the HotU or a greyscaled drogon IMO but it may well be foreshadowing something. Maybe even the three golden dragons that get paid will turn out to have a meaning. But if so then that meaning has something to do with three dragons having to be paid (in the final resolution of the whole story maybe?), but not with one of them turning to stone.

 

[The Commentator]

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My impression has always been that human deaths paid for the dragons lives, and that Drogo passed into Drogon.

For the others, though, I see Viserion as Rhaego. Look at the way he is always clinging to Dany and climbing on her the moment they get together. Like a baby clinging to it's mother.

Rhaegel, therefore, is MMD. Notice how Rhaegel is rather aloof, almost as it he (she?) is not very trusting of Dany. Not that he is not devoted to Dany, but that there is an undercurrent of wariness there.

I'll bet that before the series is over, we'll find that Rhaego's remains were burned in the pyre as well. Three deaths, three lives.

Drogon is special and yeah, he may have the remains of Drogo's soul in him.  Other theories do say he is the reincarnation of Balerion.  If Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion are the reincarnation of people, I would think they would be Drogo, Rhaego, and Viserys.  All people who were very important to Dany.  

If the "three headed dragon" has more than one meaning, it is three Targaryens under Dany's banner/control.  That would make Drogon = Rhaego, Rhaegal = Rhaegar, and Viserion = Viserys.  

 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, Amris said:

 

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

That is the last thing I mean to do. The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jaime had rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark's heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him. But the stump was dead and so was Stark and so were all the others, Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur and the children. And Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all. "Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he asked Qyburn.

The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."

Jaime ran his fingers through his hair. "Walton," he said, "saddle the horses. I want to go back."

So some actual textual evidence to help back the idea that a soul lingering isn't unique to skinchangers. Skinchangers just seem to have control over this likely due to just practice. The weirwood trees and possibly at least Dawn may be vessels capable of holding souls other than just animals or other humans. The Dragon eggs may be vessels too. So maybe Drogo slipped his spirit in on his own, or maybe Mirri had something to do with it.

 

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X Rakharo chose a stallion from the small herd that remained to them; he was not the equal of Khal Drogo's red, but few horses were. In the center of the square, Aggo fed him a withered apple and dropped him in an instant with an axe blow between the eyes.

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."

"I am tired of the maegi's braying," Dany told Jhogo. He took his whip to her, and after that the godswife kept silent.

Interesting that she said by itself, the blood is nothing. So i guess the "King's" blood Melisandre is so caught up in is actually nothing?

 

I wanna keep analyzing the text and maybe restructure the Op. Thoughts? To include what Mirri did from Drogo's healing to the Pyre. Did Mirri always plan to hatch dragons? Was she really helping Dany all along or not? Cause to me, it honestly seemed like Mirri was trying to help Dany. She made Drogo a healing poultice and he removed it and smeared mud in it. She told them no one must enter the text, and yet Jorah brings Dany into the text with Rhaego. I suspect Mirri is who protected Dany from the fire possibly, but then maybe im wrong.

 

Mirri- Trained with Maester Marwyn- Allaras=Sarella-Oberyn Martell- Doran Martell and Dorne.

Mirri- Shadow binder-Quiathe-Ashara Dayne?-Dorne.

Dany-Lemon Tree's and Red Door-Dorne?

 

I mean, these links could be nothing. It is interesting though.

Marwyn happened to also take interest in a souls lingering presence and trained with Mirri Maz Dur who's ritual with Drogo may have bound all their souls to the eggs. Or not. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 9/27/2017 at 10:51 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea i think you missed the point. You are spitting hairs. How is a rebirth or resurrection different? Your spitting hairs with terminology. Well it's not blue, it's cobalt. That's the equivalent of what your saying.

we are not talking about color gradients, we are talking about a person reborn in literal fashion after 8000 years as compares to someone creating a psychic link with another animal and transferring consciousness. Those are two radically different things. 

On 9/27/2017 at 10:51 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

So answer me this. If Varamyr had a brain dead body at his disposal when he died that he could enter, would that count as a resurrected/reborn for you? or does he actually need to pop out the womb as a baby for you? And if so, does said baby need to have his memories for it to count or just his soul?

What makes you assume you can skinchange a braindead body? That would explain wights to a degree/ 
And no, it would not be rebirth, if GRRM deems it possible in his book, it would be as you said, skinchanging, as in a transfer of consciousness. Also, you need to define what is a soul vs what is consciousness. 

On 9/27/2017 at 10:51 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Dragons have been resurrected, and reborn into the world.

  But they haven't. They have been hatched. If you disagree, explain

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

we are not talking about color gradients, we are talking about a person reborn in literal fashion after 8000 years as compares to someone creating a psychic link with another animal and transferring consciousness. Those are two radically different things. 

What makes you assume you can skinchange a braindead body? That would explain wights to a degree/ 
And no, it would not be rebirth, if GRRM deems it possible in his book, it would be as you said, skinchanging, as in a transfer of consciousness. Also, you need to define what is a soul vs what is consciousness. 

  But they haven't. They have been hatched. If you disagree, explain

I disagree on the grounds your splitting hairs with terminology that hasn't even been clearly defined with in the books. Yet you wanna define them and put them into a box. 

So as i understand though, YOU feel that a birth has to be literal. That's where this disagreement is gonna come in with you and a few who obviously dont think this has to be literal. Hence all the quotes i posted of the usage of the word reborn with in the text to show that it's even used flexibly with in the text. So while  your definitely aloud to take it as you want, i think there's enough textual evidence for people to take as non literal if they want. Non literal falling under your definition of Reborn. Born again virgins dont have to come out a newborn baby though and i could continue to use real world and text from in world to show my point is more than valid. I mean, the literal since you seem to take it in, isn't even possible. Not even with in the text. At least from what i understand of what your saying. Cause once the body and soul die, no rebirth should be possible. Otherwise, it's all just the soul slipping into new bodies, old or young. Which is all how second lifes work in the book. Which would then be the only type of rebirth possible even close to your literal sense, as opposed to a completely non literal sense like born again virgins.

Define soul vs consciousness? Hmmm, you just like open ended arguments dont you? lol Im not about to bring up science vs theology. You think GOT theorist get crazy over their beliefs hahahaha need less to say, short answer. They're the same. Tho you can be asleep and your conscious still intact haha it's inherently linked to what ever your soul is.

And why would i assume slipping a brain dead person would work? Ummmm, one word, HODORRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Varamyr tried but either failed for 3 reasons, one, he was too weak and already close to death, 2 he just wasn't as powerful as Bran, who slipped a retard......., or 3. The person he tried to slip into wasn't a mentally disabled person who was able to mentally repel his spirit from her body, though at a great fight. Hodor is not happy about being taken control of, but Bran describes him giving in like a  "Whipped dog". Real nice huh?

So most likely answer, Bran isn't really as powerful as every one thinks. He just simply has an easy vessel to which to do this. Maybe if Bran gets more powerful, but there is nothing to suggest Bran can take a normal person against their will. 

[AlaskanSandman]

So im looking at the Targaryen dragons and it definitely looks like this might have been happening back then, though i dont know why it stopped other than assuming they lost their skinchanging gene. 

Their were 20 dragons that hatched after Aegon came to Westeros that were also around during the Dance of the Dragons. Only one of those 20 hatched during the Dance of Dragons, Morning. Balerion, Vhagar, Meraxes, and Cannibal all predating Aegon. 

From Aegon down to Jaehaery's kids. There are only 26 Targaryen's born. That's only 6 Targaryen's that hypothetically may not have gone into dragon eggs, or may have, but never hatched. 

The only dragon to hatch during the war was Morning. The only known one after came out a green female that was small and deformed. 

Now maybe there is something about their genetics that got screwed up around this time. Maybe Preston Jacobs is right and that their are Hatchers born rarely, due to them needing 2 dragon X genes. So maybe they all went into eggs, but all the females capable of hatching the dragons died off with out their genes living on. 

This may have been why the faith was against Maegor marrying Rhaena, and Aegon marring Rhaena. Maybe Rhaena was special after all. Same of Rhaenyra and Rhaenys, the Princess and the Queen that the whole dance was over. This may be why the Faith of the Seven was against the incest as it does not only pass on the skinchanging genes, but the hatching gene as well. 

So maybe the riding gene lived on, but we never had a Hatcher line up genetically till Dany. Possibly due to Martel marriage that messed it up, and the Dayne marriage that produced only 2 females married off to non-Targaryens. 

Yes i believe the Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys (Try saying her name and not hearing that from now on lol) and this would explain why a Dayne marriage before produced no Hatchers, as Daella and Rhae wouldv'e needed to marry Targaryens and have Targaryen babies to try to recreate a Dragon Hatcher. 

[Amris]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So im looking at the Targaryen dragons and it definitely looks like this might have been happening back then, though i dont know why it stopped other than assuming they lost their skinchanging gene. 

Their were 20 dragons that hatched after Aegon came to Westeros that were also around during the Dance of the Dragons. Only one of those 20 hatched during the Dance of Dragons, Morning. Balerion, Vhagar, Meraxes, and Cannibal all predating Aegon. 

From Aegon down to Jaehaery's kids. There are only 26 Targaryen's born. That's only 6 Targaryen's that hypothetically may not have gone into dragon eggs, or may have, but never hatched. 

The only dragon to hatch during the war was Morning. The only known one after came out a green female that was small and deformed. 

Now maybe there is something about their genetics that got screwed up around this time. Maybe Preston Jacobs is right and that their are Hatchers born rarely, due to them needing 2 dragon X genes. So maybe they all went into eggs, but all the females capable of hatching the dragons died off with out their genes living on. 

This may have been why the faith was against Maegor marrying Rhaena, and Aegon marring Rhaena. Maybe Rhaena was special after all. Same of Rhaenyra and Rhaenys, the Princess and the Queen that the whole dance was over. This may be why the Faith of the Seven was against the incest as it does not only pass on the skinchanging genes, but the hatching gene as well. 

So maybe the riding gene lived on, but we never had a Hatcher line up genetically till Dany. Possibly due to Martel marriage that messed it up, and the Dayne marriage that produced only 2 females married off to non-Targaryens. 

Yes i believe the Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys (Try saying her name and not hearing that from now on lol) and this would explain why a Dayne marriage before produced no Hatchers, as Daella and Rhae wouldv'e needed to marry Targaryens and have Targaryen babies to try to recreate a Dragon Hatcher. 

That a hypothetical Ashara as a mother to Dany helped reestablish dragon hatching is a possibility that should be kept in mind IMO. Good observation.

However it is not the only possible explanation for Dany's ability to hatch dragons:

I also like Chrisdaw's idea that Mirri's spells accidently recreated how Valyrians had become dragon-bonded in the first place - here by pushing Rhaego's and Drogo's souls - (but most importantly Rhaego's since he shares 'bloodine' with Dany) - out of their own bodies and inadvertently linking those souls with the dragon eggs, fertilizing them.

Or even if one does not postulate that Mirri's spells recreated he original Valyrian 'recipe' for bonding with dragons, Mirri's spells could somehow inadvertedly have merged Drogo's and Rhaego's souls with two of the dragon eggs and fertilized all three. That's what I think is most likely.

Mirri did do some serious blood magic there in the tent (next to the eggs) and GRRM did feel the need to include her and her sorcery in the story so to me that makes it seem likely there is a connection between her and the 're-awakening' of a dragon-hatching ability.

And if that is the case and Mirri really was the main reason why the stone eggs were suddenly able to hatch then Dany doesn't need to have some hidden ancestry (Dayne) to have a lost former Targ ability restored. Dany could be the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. Not saying Dany can't be a secret Dayne. But she doesn't have to be.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Amris said:

That a hypothetical Ashara as a mother to Dany helped reestablish dragon hatching is a possibility that should be kept in mind IMO. Good observation.

However it is not the only possible explanation for Dany's ability to hatch dragons:

I also like Chrisdaw's idea that Mirri's spells accidently recreated how Valyrians had become dragon-bonded in the first place - here by pushing Rhaego's and Drogo's souls - (but most importantly Rhaego's since he shares 'bloodine' with Dany) - out of their own bodies and inadvertently linking those souls with the dragon eggs, fertilizing them.

Or even if one does not postulate that Mirri's spells recreated he original Valyrian 'recipe' for bonding with dragons, Mirri's spells could somehow inadvertedly have merged Drogo's and Rhaego's souls with two of the dragon eggs and fertilized all three. That's what I think is most likely.

Mirri did do some serious blood magic there in the tent (next to the eggs) and GRRM did feel the need to include her and her sorcery in the story so to me that makes it seem likely there is a connection between her and the 're-awakening' of a dragon-hatching ability.

And if that is the case and Mirri really was the main reason why the stone eggs were suddenly able to hatch then Dany doesn't need to have some hidden ancestry (Dayne) to have a lost former Targ ability restored. Dany could be the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. Not saying Dany can't be a secret Dayne. But she doesn't have to be.

Well i suppose there very well could be. My reasoning though goes into how the dragons died in the first place. Or were hatched in the first place. Which greatly effects what is actually happening as apposed to what we think may be happening. Take the funeral pyre. How do we know that any sort of fire is even needed? Because Aegon the V tried with fire? During of before the Dance of Dragons, we never once hear of any fire rituals or blood sacrifices being made in order to hatch the eggs. All we ever hear, is that the Targaryens used to put them in the cradle of baby Targs. Nettles rode Sheepsteeler with out it having been her cradle egg, and many other people have ridden dragons who had previous riders and thus was never their cradle eggs either. So it being in the cradle may be needed to hatch a dragon, but not needed to bond with it as Nettles bonds by feeding it sheep. 

Since this is literally the only thing shown to us, something unseen has to be at play along with the eggs being put into cradles, which seems to both strengthen the dragon and the baby in the cradle. 

So this eliminates much of Mirri's activities from the actual "hatching" part other than her perhaps chanting a birthing song/spell. So her magic was more than likely IMO, what killed Rhaego. Or, it's what bonded Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo to their eggs. The magic during the pyre i think was simply to protect Dany from the fire. As far as i can tell, Mirri isn't trying to harm Dany as she has morrrre than enough opportunity to. 

So from the text and quotes, all i can prove or have seen proven, Is that spirits may be needed to seed the eggs, and that the eggs may need to spend time around a Targ. More than likely, a female Targ with the right lineage. As this is the only thing that seems to have changed between the start of the Dance and the end of the Dance. Literally the onlyyyyyy factor different. 

Summerhall problems. One and major problem, Aegon used wild fire. When fire may or may not have actually been needed cause again, its never mentioned prior to this. 2- the right genetic mother was not present at Summerhall. 

A case for incest and keeping special genes in the family is a logical idea.

Now this is all just about hatching dragons mind you. As we are not really sure anything more than that is needed. Eggs have been around since the Dance of Dragons and we dont know just how many actually are laying around. These eggs may already be seeded from the remaining Targaryens who died during the war, before any possible magic was lost from their blood due to outside taint.

Creation of dragons in the first place? Yes, his idea above is interesting, but i see no text in the book to suggest this. Especially when attention has been heavily placed on Varamyrs chapter. Aside from his example of death and second lifes, Varamyr tells us the rules.

• Dont eat man flesh while in the skin of a beast
• Dont skinchange another person
• AND NO MATING WHILE IN THE SKIN OF ANOTHER BEAST

Then on top of that we learn of Wyrverns and Firewyrms, which literally sound like what was mixed to create dragons. 

So how does one bond his blood to a beast? 

He lives in the beast for too long, and the beast lives in him in return. And they mate with their respective mates. Thus transferring their blood and spirits.

Remember Jojen's warnings to Bran about staying in his wolf for too long.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Then you teach me." Bran still feared the three-eyed crow who haunted his dreams sometimes, pecking endlessly at the skin between his eyes and telling him to fly. "You're a greenseer."
"No," said Jojen, "only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world.
"The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees. I could not do these things, no more than you could. To me the gods gave the green dreams, and to you . . . you could be more than me, Bran. You are the winged wolf, and there is no saying how far and high you might fly . . . if you had someone to teach you. How can I help you master a gift I do not understand? We remember the First Men in the Neck, and the children of the forest who were their friends . . . but so much is forgotten, and so much we never knew."

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Meera will be back soon with supper."
"I'm sick of frogs." Meera was a frogeater from the Neck, so Bran couldn't really blame her for catching so many frogs, he supposed, but even so . . . "I wanted to eat the deer." For a moment he remembered the taste of it, the blood and the raw rich meat, and his mouth watered. I won the fight for it. I won.

"Did you mark the trees?"

Bran flushed. Jojen was always telling him to do things when he opened his third eye and put on Summer's skin. To claw the bark of a tree, to catch a rabbit and bring it back in his jaws uneaten, to push some rocks in a line. Stupid things. "I forgot," he said.
"You always forget."
It was true. He meant to do the things that Jojen asked, but once he was a wolf they never seemed important. There were always things to see and things to smell, a whole green world to hunt. And he could run! There was nothing better than running, unless it was running after prey. "I was a prince, Jojen," he told the older boy. "I was the prince of the woods."

It was true. He meant to do the things that Jojen asked, but once he was a wolf they never seemed important. There were always things to see and things to smell, a whole green world to hunt. And he could run! There was nothing better than running, unless it was running after prey. "I was a prince, Jojen," he told the older boy. "I was the prince of the woods."
"You are a prince," Jojen reminded him softly. "You remember, don't you? Tell me who you are."
"You know." Jojen was his friend and his teacher, but sometimes Bran just wanted to hit him.

"I want you to say the words. Tell me who you are."

"Bran," he said sullenly. Bran the Broken. "Brandon Stark." The cripple boy. "The Prince of Winterfell." Of Winterfell burned and tumbled, its people scatteredand slain. The glass gardens were smashed, and hot water gushed from the cracked walls to steam beneath the sun. How can you be the prince of someplaceyou might never see again?

"And who is Summer?" Jojen prompted.

"My direwolf." He smiled. "Prince of the green."

"Bran the boy and Summer the wolf. You are two, then?"

"Two," he sighed, "and one." He hated Jojen when he got stupid like this. At Winterfell he wanted me to dream my wolf dreams, and now that I know how he's always calling me back.

"Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you. When you join, it is not enough to run and hunt and howl in Summer's skin."

It is for me, Bran thought. He liked Summer's skin better than his own. What good is it to be a skinchanger if you can't wear the skin you like?

"Will you remember? And next time, mark the tree. Any tree, it doesn't matter, so long as you do it."

"I will. I'll remember. I could go back and do it now, if you like. I won't forget this time." But I'll eat my deer first, and fight with those little wolves some more.

Jojen shook his head. "No. Best stay, and eat. With your own mouth. A warg cannot live on what his beast consumes."

How would you know? Bran thought resentfully. You've never been a warg, you don't know what it's like.

 

^ This whole conversation helps show that Jojen is concerned about dealing with Bran getting lost in his wolf, and his wolf getting lost in him. Hence why he ask Bran who he is and what he remembers.  Combined this with breaking the rule on mating along with the Wyverns and Firewyrms existing, and you have all the pieces you need with out having to come up with new ideas or concepts.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

"Tormund Crowlover," Harma sneered. "You are a great sack o' wind, old man."
The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes."
"So we know," said Mance. "We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle. We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled. Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many. We know. And now you know we know." He opened the flap of the tent. "Come inside. The rest of you, wait here."

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Leagues away, in a one-room hut of mud and straw with a thatched roof and a smoke hole and a floor of hard-packed earth, Varamyr shivered and coughed and licked his lips. His eyes were red, his lips cracked, his throat dry and parched, but the taste of blood and fat filled his mouth, even as his swollen belly cried for nourishment. A child's flesh, he thought, remembering Bump. Human meat. Had he sunk so low as to hunger after human meat? He could almost hear Haggon growling at him. "Men may eat the flesh of beasts and beasts the flesh of men, but the man who eats the flesh of man is an abomination."
Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh.
That was as a wolf, though. He had never eaten the meat of men with human teeth. He would not grudge his pack their feast, however. The wolves were as famished as he was, gaunt and cold and hungry, and the prey … two men and a woman, a babe in arms, fleeing from defeat to death. They would have perished soon in any case, from exposure or starvation. This way was better, quicker. A mercy.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

My brothers. My pack. Many a cold night he had slept with his wolves, their shaggy bodies piled up around him to help keep him warm. When I die they will feast upon my flesh and leave only bones to greet the thaw come spring. The thought was queerly comforting. His wolves had often foraged for him as they roamed; it seemed only fitting that he should feed them in the end. He might well begin his second life tearing at the warm dead flesh of his own corpse.
Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Not all skinchangers felt the same, however. Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella …
None of them had been as strong as Varamyr Sixskins, though, not even Haggon, tall and grim with his hands as hard as stone. The hunter died weeping after Varamyr took Greyskin from him, driving him out to claim the beast for his own. No second life for you, old man. Varamyr Threeskins, he'd called himself back then. Greyskin made four, though the old wolf was frail and almost toothless and soon followed Haggon into death.
Varamyr could take any beast he wanted, bend them to his will, make their flesh his own. Dog or wolf, bear or badger …

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Not Sly. Haggon would have called it abomination, but Varamyr had often slipped inside her skin as she was being mounted by One Eye. He did not want to spend his new life as a bitch, though, not unless he had no other choice. Stalker might suit him better, the younger male … though One Eye was larger and fiercer, and it was One Eye who took Sly whenever she went into heat.
"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."
Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

This is not to say that the greenseers did not know lost arts that belong to the higher mysteries, such as seeing events at a great distance or communicating across half a realm (as the Valyrians, who came long after them, did). But mayhaps some of the feats of the greenseers have more to do with foolish tales than truth. They could not change their forms into those of beasts, as some would have it, but it seems true that they were capable of communicating with animals in a way that we cannot now achieve; it is from this that legends of skinchangers, or beastlings, arose.
In truth, the legends of the skinchangers are many, but the most common—brought from beyond the Wall by men of the Night's Watch, and recorded at the Wall by septons and maesters of centuries past—hold that the skinchangers not only communicated with beasts, but could control them by having their spirits mingle. Even among the wildlings, these skinchangers were feared as unnatural men who could call on animals as allies. Some tales speak of skinchangers losing themselves in their beasts, and others say that the animals could speak with a human voice when a skinchanger controlled them. But all the tales agree that the most common skinchangers were men who controlled wolves—even direwolves—and these had a special name among the wildlings: wargs.
Legend further holds that the greenseers could also delve into the past and see far into the future. But as all our learning has shown us, the higher mysteries that claim this power also claim that their visions of the things to come are unclear and often misleading—a useful thing to say when seeking to fool the unwary with fortune-telling. Though the children had arts of their own, the truth must always be separated from superstition, and knowledge must be tested and made sure. The higher mysteries, the arts of magic, were and are beyond the boundaries of our mortal ability to examine.

[Amris]

You certainly have done your research and I agree you may be on the right track. I can't say I am sure you are. But you may be.

This would actually be GRRMs usual writing tactics: Say something about A when it really is meant to pertain to B. (Here: explain all about direwolves when he really means dragons).

Now supposing your theory is right:

Then IMO you still would not need to postulate that all Targs that bonded with dragon eggs were skinchangers in the true sense of the word. It could be that just the original bonding happened that way. Someone or several someones skinchanged dragons and lost themselves in them. Or at least went too far and mated while in dragon form. And thus that dragon lineage became part Targ. And from that point on the direct descendants of those Targs were related to the direct descendents of those dragons and found it easier to bond with them, regardless of true skinchanging.

[AlaskanSandman]

35 minutes ago, Amris said:

You certainly have done your research and I agree you may be on the right track. I can't say I am sure you are. But you may be.

This would actually be GRRMs usual writing tactics: Say something about A when it really is meant to pertain to B. (Here: explain all about direwolves when he really means dragons).

Now supposing your theory is right:

Then IMO you still would not need to postulate that all Targs that bonded with dragon eggs were skinchangers in the true sense of the word. It could be that just the original bonding happened that way. Someone or several someones skinchanged dragons and lost themselves in them. Or at least went too far and mated while in dragon form. And thus that dragon lineage became part Targ. And from that point on the direct descendants of those Targs were related to the direct descendents of those dragons and found it easier to bond with them, regardless of true skinchanging.

Thank you, and well Septon Barth is the one who speculates that the Valyrians created Dragons from Wyvern stock. So far Barth seems to be the Boss at true info next to Old Nan. This actually isn't my idea but an in world idea. Im just kinda proving it to be the right one, inadvertently. I have no reason clingliness to one theory or the other, i just try to follow the facts as best i can

So if he's right, then that right there is some one skin changing and mating to mix breeds to create a new hybrid. In learning this, they probably spent a bit of time to learn it all and practice and thus got lost in the resulting dragons some how. 

Using the Direwolves actually makes sense in that not all skinchangers are wargs, wargs are something special and different. So far the Stark's and their direwolves suggest a blood bond almost with just how close the two actually are, even upon first pairing. Take ghost, the outsider, white as snow, with eyes that are red. Nods to weirwoods, and Jon Snow. Jon Snow who may be a dragon.

Which leads me to point out the possible nod in Dany's chapter "howling" in the darkness, suddenly doest seem as abstract or metaphorical. The direwolves and dragons are the only two creatures that require a special type of skinchanger. A skinchanger seemingly bound by blood to said magical creature. 

 Both creatures said to be magical in and of them selves too. Unlike say, just a wolf or bear or something common.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.
"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

 

[AlaskanSandman]

52 minutes ago, Amris said:

 

That all being said though. Dany having the Dayne gene and such may still not actually matter and i could be wrong and @chrisdaw may be right. Just because that's how it happened before, doesn't mean that it hassss to happen exactly the same way as before. There may be different ways of bonding your bloodline or such to a creature and that may well be the distinction difference between the Starks and the Targs and their control over their animals.

Chris has grounds still based on everything we've said. After all, the species of dragons is already around and created, and they dont need to actually recreate dragons, rather merely bond with them again and hatch them. 

Dragons= Spirit bonded (shadow binding?)+ Blood bonding (Blood Magic)

So maybe we just have a complete picture of the past and present now.

So Dany's Dayne tie isn't about the Dragons at all maybe, but simply Dawn. Though the dragons have been referred to as a flaming sword and Dany does fit the Azor Ahai prophecy description. So im totally open to further ideas or arguments for or against. 

So by this, Dany could hypothetically not be a Targ on either side and it wouldn't matter, long as their was a skinchanger gene present

[AlaskanSandman]

Actually some good possibilities for both may be Cannibal. Said to be older than the Targaryens in Westeros and violent towards Targaryen dragons. Perhaps Cannibal wasn't a Targaryen dragon at all and actually one bonded to a different Valyrian blood line. 

The Targaryens seem to have lost their blood link during the dance, assuming it's only women who can hatch the eggs. Assuming it is roughly an xx gene that has to be passed down. That leaves only a few hatchers during the dance. Rhaenyra Targ, Rhaenys Targ Laena Velaryon, Baela and Rhaena Velaryon (wed to outside houses ending any magic line), and lastly, Jaehaera Targ who never had kids.

Now Rhaenys did pass her genes down but into House Velaryon, but then back into House Targaryen through her kids, but her kids wed out side House Targaryen. Rhaenyra messed it all up. Aegon II should've been allowed to rule. Rhaenyra never had any daughters which killed it alllll. 

Now there is a slight chance that Aegon III passed an x and so did Daenera Velaryon on to Daena the Defiant who may have been xx. Though Daena only had a son, Daemon Blackfyre. So it ended there with the last possible chance being if Daemon hooked up with Daenerys Targaryen who would have had one x. Meaning any possible daughters between the two would be xx. This union was blocked though in favor of a Dornish alliance. 

So assuming this is all right. The gene was lost via this info above, and never reintroduced again. Ever. Not even in Dany. Who even if she is who she thinks she is, would either be double X Blackwood, or Double X Dayne (passed on from Dyanna Dayne into Shaera, who may have passed on X onto Aerys and Rhaella, who may have each passed theirs on to Dany leading to a double X Dayne gene on its own.) . Or a possible split between the two. The original maternal dragon hatching line though is dead and gone.

Soooo, all that long winded explanation is a justification that Mirri in the tent and the Pyre may have actually started a brand new Blood line tied to the Dragons. Not really the true Targaryens, but good enough. @Amris @chrisdaw

[AlaskanSandman]

Ive gotta say though after looking at the Azor Ahai prophecy and the Prince that was Promised. They seem about the same person, especially since Aemon calls Dany TPTWP then mentions the bleeding star and that the dragons prove it, which would be the waking dragons bit. The only thing said under Azor Ahai that has not been also linked to TPTWP is drawing from the fire a burning sword. Which may or may not actually be the dragons. So these are the prophecies  -TPTWP -Azor Ahai -Both

• When the stars bleed
• Born amidst salt and smoke
• Living dragons hatched from dead stone
• Fight the darkness (the Others)
• Must have three heads
• Theres is the song of Ice and Fire
• Draw from the Fire a burning sword
• Reborn in the Sea
• Their triumph will bring a summer that never ends
• Death it self will bend its knee
• Those who fight for her cause shall be reborn

So putting them all together, it's clear its Dany. Born among salt and smoke in the sea, the funeral pyre in the Dothraki Sea. Living dragons from stone, check. Draw from the fire a burning sword, Dragons? Check. Must have 3 heads? Drogo, Rhaegel, Viserion, Check. When the stars bleed, check. Theres is the song of Ice and Fire, Check. 

TRIUMPH WILL BRING A SUMMER THAT NEVER ENDS.............. This may not actually be a good idea.

DEATH IT SELF WILL BEND ITS KNEE?......       Ummmmmmmmm. This could go a couple ways

THOSE WHO FIGHT FOR HER CAUSE SHALL BE REBORN....... Lets hope not. 

I just still cant help but wonder about that magic sword though, and Dayne Heir(ess) Daenerys and how she and Dawn complete the picture. Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa? Really it looks like Dany is both figures. 

Jon? Hmmm, jon i guess may play the part of Azor by driving the sword into Dany.

But what could Jon's death, and resurrection, and being a Fire Wight, have to do with this picture we have of Dany??? Aside from possibly just killing her to make a sword. To what end? How does this effect the ending? Is this it? Does Jon go on to fight the Others?

I have speculated else where that Dany and Jon will get together and Dany will become pregnant. Now her getting her moon's blood does make this possible and this is hinted at by Mirri as possibly being a part of Drogo's Resurrection.

Tho may not be. I suspect this is a plan of the Other to be reborn and break the curse against him.

How ever. Could they be meant to have a kid still, and this is when Jon is supposed to sacrifice Dany?? The moment the Other slips into Dany's child. Born of an alive Dany and a dead Jon Snow, being the Never Born. Jon must sacrifice Dany and his Child to stop the Others? Crack pot? 

[Amris]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ive gotta say though after looking at the Azor Ahai prophecy and the Prince that was Promised. They seem about the same person, especially since Aemon calls Dany TPTWP then mentions the bleeding star and that the dragons prove it, which would be the waking dragons bit. The only thing said under Azor Ahai that has not been also linked to TPTWP is drawing from the fire a burning sword. Which may or may not actually be the dragons. So these are the prophecies  -TPTWP -Azor Ahai -Both

• When the stars bleed
• Born amidst salt and smoke
• Living dragons hatched from dead stone
• Fight the darkness (the Others)
• Must have three heads
• Theres is the song of Ice and Fire
• Draw from the Fire a burning sword
• Reborn in the Sea
• Their triumph will bring a summer that never ends
• Death it self will bend its knee
• Those who fight for her cause shall be reborn

So putting them all together, it's clear its Dany. Born among salt and smoke in the sea, the funeral pyre in the Dothraki Sea. Living dragons from stone, check. Draw from the fire a burning sword, Dragons? Check. Must have 3 heads? Drogo, Rhaegel, Viserion, Check. When the stars bleed, check. Theres is the song of Ice and Fire, Check. 

TRIUMPH WILL BRING A SUMMER THAT NEVER ENDS.............. This may not actually be a good idea.

DEATH IT SELF WILL BEND ITS KNEE?......       Ummmmmmmmm. This could go a couple ways

THOSE WHO FIGHT FOR HER CAUSE SHALL BE REBORN....... Lets hope not. 

I just still cant help but wonder about that magic sword though, and Dayne Heir(ess) Daenerys and how she and Dawn complete the picture. Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa? Really it looks like Dany is both figures. 

Jon? Hmmm, jon i guess may play the part of Azor by driving the sword into Dany.

But what could Jon's death, and resurrection, and being a Fire Wight, have to do with this picture we have of Dany??? Aside from possibly just killing her to make a sword. To what end? How does this effect the ending? Is this it? Does Jon go on to fight the Others?

I have speculated else where that Dany and Jon will get together and Dany will become pregnant. Now her getting her moon's blood does make this possible and this is hinted at by Mirri as possibly being a part of Drogo's Resurrection.

Tho may not be. I suspect this is a plan of the Other to be reborn and break the curse against him.

How ever. Could they be meant to have a kid still, and this is when Jon is supposed to sacrifice Dany?? The moment the Other slips into Dany's child. Born of an alive Dany and a dead Jon Snow, being the Never Born. Jon must sacrifice Dany and his Child to stop the Others? Crack pot? 

I think we agree that it's all about the end-game. But how the pieces fit together beats me.

For instance: we already have a prince who is a merger of both ice and fire (Jon). So is that merged prince meant to take the side of fire and defeat the ice side? That sounds somewhat counter-intuitive.

We have a legendary sword: the flaming sword of the last hero. We also have the icy swords of the Others which sound like the exact opposite of last hero's flaming sword.

We have a legendary battle for the dawn and we have a sword called Dawn which has been at the Tower of Joy when the merged prince of ice and fire was born and whose description makes it sound like it looks like the icy swords of the Others. Is Dawn an ice sword? Was the 'Battle for the Dawn' a battle for the sword Dawn? Is it a coincidence that the legendary sword of House Stark was called Ice? Is Dawn the original Ice as some posters on this forum have postulated?

Is the Others' goal actually to recapture the sword Dawn? Do they have an inverted 'Azor Ahai' or 'Last Hero' legend? Does an icy last hero wielding an icy Dawn have to face off against a fiery last hero wielding a flaming sword?

Each side being promised that wielding their respective legendary swords will bring final victory (eternal summer/eternal winter).

That would sound like a matter/antimatter reaction to me. Annihilating each other. With ultimate victory and defeat for both sides. And leaving the merged prince of ice and fire to rule over the ruins.

Lots of possibilities - too many for me to piece together. But a very cool setup by GRRM.

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I disagree on the grounds your splitting hairs with terminology that hasn't even been clearly defined with in the books. Yet you wanna define them and put them into a box. 

It has been clearly defined, and it contradicts with what you say 

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So as i understand though, YOU feel that a birth has to be literal. 

No , I merely speak a truth of a definition. 

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's where this disagreement is gonna come in with you and a few who obviously dont think this has to be literal. Hence all the quotes i posted of the usage of the word reborn with in the text to show that it's even used flexibly with in the text. So while  your definitely aloud to take it as you want, i think there's enough textual evidence for people to take as non literal if they want. Non literal falling under your definition of Reborn. Born again virgins dont have to come out a newborn baby though and i could continue to use real world and text from in world to show my point is more than valid. I mean, the literal since you seem to take it in, isn't even possible. Not even with in the text. At least from what i understand of what your saying. Cause once the body and soul die, no rebirth should be possible. Otherwise, it's all just the soul slipping into new bodies, old or young. Which is all how second lifes work in the book. Which would then be the only type of rebirth possible even close to your literal sense, as opposed to a completely non literal sense like born again virgins.

Your quotes show nothing. That is the problem. If your quotes actually showed that skinchanging is synonymous with rebirth, we would not be continuing this. Now, you talking about born again virgins just shows another example that rebirth is purely symbolic, in real life and in the books.   

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Define soul vs consciousness? Hmmm, you just like open ended arguments dont you? lol Im not about to bring up science vs theology. You think GOT theorist get crazy over their beliefs hahahaha need less to say, short answer. They're the same. Tho you can be asleep and your conscious still intact haha it's inherently linked to what ever your soul is.

 so if they are the same, and skinchanging is rebirth, is it death every time a skinchanger leaves the body of whatever animal they were inside?

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And why would i assume slipping a brain dead person would work? Ummmm, one word, HODORRRRRRRRRRRRR.

hodor isn't brain dead. He is mentally challenged. If he was brain dead he wouldn't be able to move or understand Brand 

On 9/29/2017 at 10:07 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Varamyr tried but either failed for 3 reasons, one, he was too weak and already close to death, 2 he just wasn't as powerful as Bran, who slipped a retard......., or 3. The person he tried to slip into wasn't a mentally disabled person who was able to mentally repel his spirit from her body, though at a great fight. Hodor is not happy about being taken control of, but Bran describes him giving in like a  "Whipped dog". Real nice huh?

The answer is probably 3, and there is a reason why it is called an abomination to skinchange a person 

On 9/29/2017 at 10:07 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

So most likely answer, Bran isn't really as powerful as every one thinks. He just simply has an easy vessel to which to do this. Maybe if Bran gets more powerful, but there is nothing to suggest Bran can take a normal person against their will. 

 If the most powerful skinchanger north of the wall cannot take someone's mind without a fight, neither can bran, or so it seems.....

[AlaskanSandman]

32 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It has been clearly defined, and it contradicts with what you say 

No , I merely speak a truth of a definition. 

Your quotes show nothing. That is the problem. If your quotes actually showed that skinchanging is synonymous with rebirth, we would not be continuing this. Now, you talking about born again virgins just shows another example that rebirth is purely symbolic, in real life and in the books.   

 so if they are the same, and skinchanging is rebirth, is it death every time a skinchanger leaves the body of whatever animal they were inside?

hodor isn't brain dead. He is mentally challenged. If he was brain dead he wouldn't be able to move or understand Brand 

The answer is probably 3, and there is a reason why it is called an abomination to skinchange a person 

 If the most powerful skinchanger north of the wall cannot take someone's mind without a fight, neither can bran, or so it seems.....

re·born

rēˈbôrn/

adjective

adjective: reborn; adjective: re-born

brought back to life or activity.

"the grand concourse stands reborn as a four-star restaurant"

having experienced a complete spiritual change.

"a reborn Catholic"

 

 

 

So far your the only person expressing confusion over this, which is fine, but this isn't really an issue on my end or likely something i can probably change given enough evidence has been provided for most. But that's ok and people dont have to see things the same way, and i could still be wrong, no matter how well argued

 

Yes, i would call this a physical death imo. So their physical rebirth into a new (to them) body is all we're talking about here.

 

Exactly, he's the closest example we have to some one brain dead (other than Drogo), which seems to be the only reason Bran is able to skinchange him. If Hodor was completely brain dead, im sure the control Bran would have would be obsolete. Given you can lose your self in your new body, and no one actually inhabits said body, you should have a full and complete physical rebirth

 

Exactly

 

And Exactly

 

Though the mechanics of the rebirths are not fully understood here as the Skinchanging bit only accounts for the magic of the Children, and not the magic of Rhllor or what ever Qyburn is up to.

 

As the soul seems to linger though no matter who it is, perhaps there is different ways of bringing some one back. Other than a new vessel as in the case of the CotF magic.

 

As we've discussed above, we're not sure which happened with Dany but it seems it's tied more to Rhllor magic and shadow binding more than CotF magic probably. For all we know though, Fire Magic and the magic of TCOTF may or may not be different. There is much debate on how many powers are actually at play with in the Story. 

 

Though Martin could throw a winger and every thing we're seeing is still misunderstood and some sci-fi answer instead or alchemy or magic in the supernatural sense.

 

The ultimate idea of this thread was simply that the souls of Drogo, Viserys and Rhaego seeded the eggs, and that it happened before the pyre.

 

The working idea here seems to be that given the dragons are already in existence, all we really saw was Dany's bloodline being bonded with that of the dragons through Miri's shadow binding, given the Targaryens lost their genetic hatchers after the Dance of the Dragons. So Dany's new maternal line is the line of the future dragon hatchers, given they keep up the incest.

 

 

 

 

[chrisdaw]

What will be key in all this when it comes to second lifing a dragon will be how the Valyrians were able to survive the fire.

The second life is a known quantity, and it won't be just the domain of skinchangers, it is the domain of blood sorcerers also. Valyrian steel will be second lifed steel, experimentation with it will be the meanings of what occurred on Gagossos and is still occurring in Asshai. Generally wherever there is the line that humans mated with animals/beasts to bring forth half/half children we are looking at second lifing.

People would have tried to skinchange and second life dragons, which would have allowed them to ride dragons, just no-one succeeded besides the Valyrians. Why no-one succeeded is another point seeded in Varamyr's chapter, his description of getting microwaved by Mel. People will have tried but been unable to keep their soul inside a dragon without it being consumed by the dragon's fire. Almost certainly someone will try and skinchange a dragon in the text to come and we'll get an account of this first hand, as they're either consumed and die or more likely the heat forces them out as Varamyr was forced out by Mel.

Somehow the Valyrians got around this, they were the only ones, and that is why they were the only dragon riders. How they did it, what cost they paid will be interesting. But also it raises the question of if Dany did this same thing. Either she recreated the solution to the fire barrier, or the solution was pre-existing in her Targaryen blood.

Dany's waking the dragon dream is by the way her on the verge of second lifing Drogon. She's almost the whole way there, but then she lives and so doesn't do it. It is why Quaithe tells her to remember what she is meant to be, what Quaithe means by to go forward Dany must go back. The red door is death, the barrier between her human life and her dragon second life, her true happy home. The stone arches Dany walks under and the stone floor in her wake the dragon dream is the inside of the dragon's mouth. The red door is inside at the end of the dragon's gullet, behind it is the point from which the dragon's fire originates, where goes the heart of fire, a soul that survives within the fire without being consumed, that which feeds the dragon's flame, Lightbringer.

[867-5309]

On 9/30/2017 at 1:39 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

So im looking at the Targaryen dragons and it definitely looks like this might have been happening back then, though i dont know why it stopped other than assuming they lost their skinchanging gene. 

Their were 20 dragons that hatched after Aegon came to Westeros that were also around during the Dance of the Dragons. Only one of those 20 hatched during the Dance of Dragons, Morning. Balerion, Vhagar, Meraxes, and Cannibal all predating Aegon. 

From Aegon down to Jaehaery's kids. There are only 26 Targaryen's born. That's only 6 Targaryen's that hypothetically may not have gone into dragon eggs, or may have, but never hatched. 

The only dragon to hatch during the war was Morning. The only known one after came out a green female that was small and deformed. 

Now maybe there is something about their genetics that got screwed up around this time. Maybe Preston Jacobs is right and that their are Hatchers born rarely, due to them needing 2 dragon X genes. So maybe they all went into eggs, but all the females capable of hatching the dragons died off with out their genes living on. 

This may have been why the faith was against Maegor marrying Rhaena, and Aegon marring Rhaena. Maybe Rhaena was special after all. Same of Rhaenyra and Rhaenys, the Princess and the Queen that the whole dance was over. This may be why the Faith of the Seven was against the incest as it does not only pass on the skinchanging genes, but the hatching gene as well. 

So maybe the riding gene lived on, but we never had a Hatcher line up genetically till Dany. Possibly due to Martel marriage that messed it up, and the Dayne marriage that produced only 2 females married off to non-Targaryens. 

Yes i believe the Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys (Try saying her name and not hearing that from now on lol) and this would explain why a Dayne marriage before produced no Hatchers, as Daella and Rhae wouldv'e needed to marry Targaryens and have Targaryen babies to try to recreate a Dragon Hatcher. 

I don't think even Rhaenyra could have hatched dragons from petrified eggs.  Only Dany could do that.  She is azor ahai, the one prophesied to awaken dragons from stone.  That she did. 

There were "hatchers" in the family in the past but they were hatching freshly laid eggs.  What Dany did was something else.  Beyond what Rhaenyra could do.  What Dany did was the equivalent of bringing dinosaurs back from fossils.

To me, Rhaego is the best candidate to be Drogon's spirit.  Dany and Drogo lost their child, the stallion.  But in some way, the prophecy is still fulfilled because Dany will be the khal of khals, the entire world will be her khalasar.  She will do this with the help of the stallion, Drogon, her own child.  If the crones had been Valyrians they would tell of a prophecy of the mighty dragon who will unite the world, but since they are not, we got a horse instead.  Because they're a male dominated peoples and are sort of sexists they assumed a male horse. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I've been so curious as to how dragon eggs are hatched for quite a while. Even toyed with the idea that there were sacrifices that needed to be made & that Rhaegar figured it out & planned on sacrificing his children. I don't think that's very likely though. 

I've never put together a post about it as I've never been able to put it all together in my head. You've done a good job here. 

Some questions I have never found a satisfactory answer to that maybe you have some ideas on:

Why did the dragons stop hatching? 

Following your posts here maybe before the dragons died out there didn't need to be a sacrifice every time an egg was hatched - just initially. After that possibly putting the eggs in the babies cradles allowed a little of the babies soul to transfer into the egg & then hatch? Much the same as the Stark children have a part of themselves in the direwolves. 

But maybe the "bonding" happened before the baby was born & occasionally too much of the Dragon went back into the baby & that's how they ended up with some babies being born similar to Rhaegal? 

But then some of the eggs didn't hatch. What would cause that to happen? 

The dragons died out & Dany brought them back to life via blood ritual/ funeral pyre. Will her dragons lay eggs? 

A dragon rider is clearly bonded with their dragon as we see with Dany & Drogon but does there have to be some sort of bond with the dragon rider & the person sacrificed (whose soul is now in the dragon) before death, like with Dany & Drogo? I would think not since almost no one other than Dany would have been able to bond with Rhaego. 

Sorry if I'm jumping all over the place & rambling - like I said I've never been able to put all my thoughts in order but the subject is very interesting. 

I've been following this thread & am going to reread it to see what I may have missed & then will probably have more ramblings! 

At any rate congrats on the OP I think you did a great job