Dragons, only death can pay for life.

[Springwatch]

On 29/09/2017 at 8:10 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Interesting that she said by itself, the blood is nothing. So i guess the "King's" blood Melisandre is so caught up in is actually nothing?

 

I wanna keep analyzing the text and maybe restructure the Op. Thoughts? To include what Mirri did from Drogo's healing to the Pyre. Did Mirri always plan to hatch dragons? Was she really helping Dany all along or not? Cause to me, it honestly seemed like Mirri was trying to help Dany. She made Drogo a healing poultice and he removed it and smeared mud in it. She told them no one must enter the text, and yet Jorah brings Dany into the text with Rhaego. I suspect Mirri is who protected Dany from the fire possibly, but then maybe im wrong.

 

Mirri- Trained with Maester Marwyn- Allaras=Sarella-Oberyn Martell- Doran Martell and Dorne.

Mirri- Shadow binder-Quiathe-Ashara Dayne?-Dorne.

Dany-Lemon Tree's and Red Door-Dorne?

 

I mean, these links could be nothing. It is interesting though.

Marwyn happened to also take interest in a souls lingering presence and trained with Mirri Maz Dur who's ritual with Drogo may have bound all their souls to the eggs. Or not. 

There are a few things touching on Mirri's motives that we can be near certain of.

She has studied magic widely and deeply, and therefore could commit murder in any number of ways.

At the end of all that training, she has still chosen to be a priestess of the Lamb God, who probably forbids murder. Mirri is devout - she didn't use her powers to save her people from Drogo.

But Rhaego is coming, and the world is going to be totally consumed by violence and horror -   and the obvious solution is to kill Dany immediately: no more Stallions.

Why does Mirri not do this? In all probability, she prayed, and got an answer which was the exact opposite of what she expected - i.e. to save the world, you must heal Drogo, and keep Dany alive, and be prepared to sacrifice everything - your life, your honour, your religious values, everything.

And that's what she does.

I like this idea of getting down to the bones of what is truly right and wrong. It echoes Jon's story, when the Halfhand tells him not to worry about his vows but do whatever it takes to survive among the wildlings; and Brienne's story, when she swears to sacrifice her life and honour if it would save Cat's daughters.

Anyway. Mirri is acting on blind faith that her sacrifice will not be in vain. When she sees Dany trying to put together a blood magic ritual without the necessary knowledge, she has doubts (not to mention fear, anger and resentment).

Quote

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Dur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."

She probably thinks the ritual is flawed in two ways: Dany doesn't know the right words, and the horse is unworthy.

There's only one place the words can come from - Mirri herself. She sings in the pyre. The meaning has already been clued in when Mirri says she knows the birthing songs of the moonsingers, and Doreah says dragons hatched from the moon.

The horse was not the sacrifice (it probably represents Drogo's 2nd 'death'). Mirri is the worthy sacrifice in place of the horse - and her horse identity shows up in these words:

Quote

"I am tired of the maegi's braying," Dany told Jhogo. He took his whip to her..

Later Dany dreams of Mirri with dragons bursting from her brow. That's how it happened.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. Only death pays for life. Regardless of how or where we think their souls went - or if they had souls at all Rhaego, Viserys, Drogo, and MMD all died. 

I don't think necessarily Viserys & Rhaego's souls passed into the eggs because they were Targs - I think they passed into the eggs because the eggs were a vessel in close proximity that their souls could go into. I don't think it has to be a Targaryen at all. However it is suggested in an earlier post that Rhaego, being both Dany & Drogo's blood somehow paved the way for Drogo to be able to enter an egg. 

Drogo & not Qotho because Drogo had a close relationship with Dany. That is the connection. I'm not saying it's impossible that Mirri's life paid for one of the eggs to hatch - or that Mirri's soul entered one of the eggs but what would be her connection then? Rhaego is part Targaryen but Drogo & MMD are not so that isn't it. Drogo & Rhaego both had a close relationship with Dany but Mirri did not so that isn't it. Mirri died in the fire but Drogo & Rhaego did not - I don't buy the whole their souls hadn't left their body because they were Dothraki thing. That doesn't ring true to me at all. It's just another religion with another interpretation of how you pass over. If it were true for the Dothraki it would be true for anyone whether they believed it or not IMO. Maybe the eggs have to be "seeded" with someone's soul & then a death has to be paid to bring them to life? So Viserys, Rhaego, & Drogo went into the eggs & then MMD's death paid for their life? 

It doesn't make much sense to me to say Drogo & Rhaego's death paid for the lives of the dragons one way but MMD's had to pay for it another way. 

I think most of us can agree if any of the dragons are anyone Drogon is Drogo. I wasn't suggesting Viserys acted that way in life only that I could see a baby or child Viserys being very clingy. Admittedly it has been a while since my last reread but I don't remember feeling like Viserion was any more clingy or needy than Rhaegal. Only that Drogon was more independent - doesn't mean I'm right though. When I have some time I'll do a search for Viserion's name & see if I feel differently. Also - & this may not bear much weight but I would find it very odd for Drogo to = Drogon, but then Rhaego to = Viserion, & MMD to = Rhaegal. If one name lines up I would think the others would to. 

If any death at any time could pay for life, there would have been no reason for Jaquen to give three lives to Arya for the Red God. Any three of countless meaningless deaths in the past would have paid for those lives.

If the souls of someone's dearly departed can simply jump into their dragon egg, then there would have been no mystery as to how to hatch them all those years. There would have been multiple dragons born at Summerhall and the pyromancers would have had no problem hatching all of the soul-seeded eggs lying around after the Dance.

I think in this case, we can take the words "Only death can pay for life" at face value, and the only deaths involved at the time the dragons were given life were MMD, and the still not-completely-dead-in-the-metaphysical-sense bodies of Drogo and Rhaego.

Re-read all of Dany's interactions with her growing dragons: Drogo is frequently off doing his own thing, Rhaegal sits and watches and keeps his distance, Viserion flies right over to Dany, pawing at her, climbing all over her and then let's out a wail when she tries to push him away. Maybe if I have time this weekend I'll track down some of the relevant quotes, but it is always Viserion clinging to her. If Viserion is acting like this because this is what a baby Viserys would do, then Drogon wouldn't be fierce and independent like he is -- unless Drogo came out of the womb ready for battle and aiming to conquer the world.

The names have little to do with whose life infused which dragon. Drogo was the obvious name for the darkest, fiercest dragon, but the others were named to honor Dany's brothers, not the lives that empowered them.

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is covered in the thread. Drogo either is a skinchanger and or all souls linger as described by Qyburn. The bonding of the souls to the eggs happened before the pyre, with Viserys going first. Perhaps due to all three being given to the flames in some way. Older Targaryens were burned upon their death so this may be the fire sacrifice that slips their soul, or it was Mirri's activities in the tent that officially bound them. Either way, the eggs are seeded already by the time of the Pyre. The pyre is just the final thing needed to hatch or awaken them. 

Viserys i think your over estimating. Viserys was weak and clung to Dany for strength in the end and was losing him self. Dany was always the stronger one. So Viserion clinging to Dany would actually make sense. Viserys was pathetic and clingy. Giving Dany up for an army was not something Viserys was overtyly fond  of and upon feeling cheated, wanted her back. Illyrio even tells up a story of Viserys that clearly shows he was not completely on board with selling his sister off.

It is totally possible for Mirri to be one of them. I just dont think so. Viserys eggs Viserion was moving right after the tent incident. Leaving only 2 eggs left. Of the remaining people, Rhaego, Drogo, and Mirri. It seems more likely it would be the two who had a bond to Dany to begin with.

The Stallion who mounts the world. Is it Drogo, is it Rhaego, or is it Dany? Wouldn't matter this way, they all are.

And recall (posted in thread) Dany's earliest dream of the Dragon. It's Viserys who turns into a Dragon. 

No, sorry, Viserys was not pathetic and clingy by the time he died. He beat Dany when he felt she was giving him commands and then backed off when she defended herself. He didn't run for her protection. Then he drew a blade in Vaes Dothrak and threatened to kill Dany and the StMtW in front of Drogo and all his bloodriders -- foolish, yes, but not clingy and certainly not weak. Only at the very last instant did he turn to Dany for help, but it was too late.

I checked, but I can't find any text that suggests Viserion's egg was moving right after Viserys died. Rhaego starts kicking in Dany's womb on the way back from the market, right after the incident with the wine-seller, but then she puts all three eggs an a brazier and the light and flame dance around them, but no indication that the eggs themselves are moving.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

If any death at any time could pay for life, there would have been no reason for Jaquen to give three lives to Arya for the Red God. Any three of countless meaningless deaths in the past would have paid for those lives.

If the souls of someone's dearly departed can simply jump into their dragon egg, then there would have been no mystery as to how to hatch them all those years. There would have been multiple dragons born at Summerhall and the pyromancers would have had no problem hatching all of the soul-seeded eggs lying around after the Dance.

I think in this case, we can take the words "Only death can pay for life" at face value, and the only deaths involved at the time the dragons were given life were MMD, and the still not-completely-dead-in-the-metaphysical-sense bodies of Drogo and Rhaego.

Re-read all of Dany's interactions with her growing dragons: Drogo is frequently off doing his own thing, Rhaegal sits and watches and keeps his distance, Viserion flies right over to Dany, pawing at her, climbing all over her and then let's out a wail when she tries to push him away. Maybe if I have time this weekend I'll track down some of the relevant quotes, but it is always Viserion clinging to her. If Viserion is acting like this because this is what a baby Viserys would do, then Drogon wouldn't be fierce and independent like he is -- unless Drogo came out of the womb ready for battle and aiming to conquer the world.

The names have little to do with whose life infused which dragon. Drogo was the obvious name for the darkest, fiercest dragon, but the others were named to honor Dany's brothers, not the lives that empowered them.

 Arya had to pick 3 people because she stole 3 lives from the many-faced God. 3 were supposed to die who didn't, she had to pick 3 to replace them - oddly enough any 3 would do. Past lives were already owed & accounted for so they wouldn't work. It's a completely different situation. 

It would absolutely still be a mystery how to hatch the eggs if the souls of the dead could inhabit the eggs. First & foremost who would have told the secret? Only the dead would know & they ain't talking. Secondly the ritual had to be performed correctly - however that may be. Things lined up right for Dany, they didn't at Summerhall. 

Drogo & Rhaego were just as dead as Viserys though. Why Drogo & Rhaego but not Viserys? Because Viserys didn't believe his soul didn't depart until he was burned with his stallion? Well neither did Rhaego. Because Viserys wasn't Dothraki? I just can't see that being how things work as I said before. 

MMD was obviously central to the eggs hatching at this point though we just don't know how. 

I will reread & think on Viserion's actions. 

You may be right about the names - I have no evidence to contradict it. I would just find it odd. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/3/2017 at 2:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

If any death at any time could pay for life, there would have been no reason for Jaquen to give three lives to Arya for the Red God. Any three of countless meaningless deaths in the past would have paid for those lives.

If the souls of someone's dearly departed can simply jump into their dragon egg, then there would have been no mystery as to how to hatch them all those years. There would have been multiple dragons born at Summerhall and the pyromancers would have had no problem hatching all of the soul-seeded eggs lying around after the Dance.

I think in this case, we can take the words "Only death can pay for life" at face value, and the only deaths involved at the time the dragons were given life were MMD, and the still not-completely-dead-in-the-metaphysical-sense bodies of Drogo and Rhaego.

Re-read all of Dany's interactions with her growing dragons: Drogo is frequently off doing his own thing, Rhaegal sits and watches and keeps his distance, Viserion flies right over to Dany, pawing at her, climbing all over her and then let's out a wail when she tries to push him away. Maybe if I have time this weekend I'll track down some of the relevant quotes, but it is always Viserion clinging to her. If Viserion is acting like this because this is what a baby Viserys would do, then Drogon wouldn't be fierce and independent like he is -- unless Drogo came out of the womb ready for battle and aiming to conquer the world.

The names have little to do with whose life infused which dragon. Drogo was the obvious name for the darkest, fiercest dragon, but the others were named to honor Dany's brothers, not the lives that empowered them.

No, sorry, Viserys was not pathetic and clingy by the time he died. He beat Dany when he felt she was giving him commands and then backed off when she defended herself. He didn't run for her protection. Then he drew a blade in Vaes Dothrak and threatened to kill Dany and the StMtW in front of Drogo and all his bloodriders -- foolish, yes, but not clingy and certainly not weak. Only at the very last instant did he turn to Dany for help, but it was too late.

I checked, but I can't find any text that suggests Viserion's egg was moving right after Viserys died. Rhaego starts kicking in Dany's womb on the way back from the market, right after the incident with the wine-seller, but then she puts all three eggs an a brazier and the light and flame dance around them, but no indication that the eggs themselves are moving.

 

Your kind of going in circles and not reading the thread. No one said any death would work 

And no, summerhall was missing a hatcher. So even if they managed to seed the souls, it's pointless with out a hatcher. 

Oh im sorry, i didn't realize that made Viserys a strong dominant independent man..... we must see things differently here. 

and Literally first quote in the Op. Happens after Mirri's ritual in the tent. I even list what chapter so i dont have to deal with this. Now im sure you can find some argument that Dany is mistaken or hallucinating or something but it's reaching. The text clearly says she feels movement from with in the egg. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/3/2017 at 6:58 AM, Springwatch said:

There are a few things touching on Mirri's motives that we can be near certain of.

She has studied magic widely and deeply, and therefore could commit murder in any number of ways.

At the end of all that training, she has still chosen to be a priestess of the Lamb God, who probably forbids murder. Mirri is devout - she didn't use her powers to save her people from Drogo.

But Rhaego is coming, and the world is going to be totally consumed by violence and horror -   and the obvious solution is to kill Dany immediately: no more Stallions.

Why does Mirri not do this? In all probability, she prayed, and got an answer which was the exact opposite of what she expected - i.e. to save the world, you must heal Drogo, and keep Dany alive, and be prepared to sacrifice everything - your life, your honour, your religious values, everything.

And that's what she does.

I like this idea of getting down to the bones of what is truly right and wrong. It echoes Jon's story, when the Halfhand tells him not to worry about his vows but do whatever it takes to survive among the wildlings; and Brienne's story, when she swears to sacrifice her life and honour if it would save Cat's daughters.

Anyway. Mirri is acting on blind faith that her sacrifice will not be in vain. When she sees Dany trying to put together a blood magic ritual without the necessary knowledge, she has doubts (not to mention fear, anger and resentment).

She probably thinks the ritual is flawed in two ways: Dany doesn't know the right words, and the horse is unworthy.

There's only one place the words can come from - Mirri herself. She sings in the pyre. The meaning has already been clued in when Mirri says she knows the birthing songs of the moonsingers, and Doreah says dragons hatched from the moon.

The horse was not the sacrifice (it probably represents Drogo's 2nd 'death'). Mirri is the worthy sacrifice in place of the horse - and her horse identity shows up in these words:

Later Dany dreams of Mirri with dragons bursting from her brow. That's how it happened.

Yea, but to assume Mirri knows how to hatch eggs would be to assume it's common knowledge and we should have plenty of Dragons already. Yet we dont, so it's clear that Mirri does not know how to hatch dragons any more than Dany did. Thats pretty simple.

[AlaskanSandman]

I dont know why it sounds so strange to some that the Dothraki have the same bond to their horses as the Targaryens to their Dragons. After the Dragon Lords died, the Horse Lords went on to rule Essos. I know it doesn't sound as cool or necessary since horses aren't magical and real people do ride horses well with out the use of skinchanging that we know of. In a magical world though with a race much like the Mongols, it would make sense to say their bond to their horses was magical. 

Theres much about the Dothraki that strikes me as odd. 

Mother Mountain- A mountain in the plains sea now, yes, but back in the day, an Island alone in the Silver Sea. Hugor's Hill? There are a few links between Hugor's legend, Huzhor Amai's legend, and the Grey King's. Just to name a few. 

The  Ifequevron- sounds like CotF and the Dothraki revere them. Plus the Dothraki seem to have avenged the Ifequevron by destroying Ibb.

The Silver Sea- Any kingdom built with-in the lands that were once the Silver Sea have since been destroyed by the Dothraki.

Maybe it's all coincidence, but i doubt it. That's just to name a few quick ones.

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea, but to assume Mirri knows how to hatch eggs would be to assume it's common knowledge and we should have plenty of Dragons already. Yet we dont, so it's clear that Mirri does not know how to hatch dragons any more than Dany did. Thats pretty simple.

Huh? Common knowledge has nothing to do with Mirri. She's about as uncommon as you could get.

She lived and studied in Asshai, the place where (at some level) dragons stir beneath the sunrise, where Ilyrio can plausibly claim to have got the dragon eggs. We don't know for a fact that Mirri has dragonlore, but we can't put a limit on how much she knows - she might know all there is to know.

Asshai seems to be a hotbed of advanced learning, and experts in multiple topics were willing to pass on their knowledge to Mirri. She earned the title 'Maegi' - the wise.

And she's got religion too. Many readers take her words as prophetic. That's a key point, because the hatching does need something 'extra' - some knowledge or magic to make the ritual work - and that something can only come from the supernatural side.

It's possible that this 'deus ex machina' operated on Dany, but I don't think so: when Dany has a vision, we see it too. Besides, Dany says she's acting on what she learned from Mirri - which can only be that if you want something huge, you have to make a huge sacrifice - everything you have, in fact.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 6:22 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Drogo & Rhaego were just as dead as Viserys though. Why Drogo & Rhaego but not Viserys? Because Viserys didn't believe his soul didn't depart until he was burned with his stallion? Well neither did Rhaego. Because Viserys wasn't Dothraki? I just can't see that being how things work as I said before. 

Well, one more thought and then I'll bow out.

Drogo and Rhaego are not as dead as Viserys. First of all, as I mentioned, the Dothraki are not fully dead until their bodies have been consumed by fire. You say this is just a belief, so it has no bearing. But beliefs matter greatly in this world. Kings blood has magical power not because it is actually different from normal blood, but because people believe it is different. This is why Melisandre seeks it out for her spells, even if it is bastard blood.

Secondly, with both Drogo and Rhaego only recently dead, who is to say that their bodies still did not maintain some essence of life? To this day, science cannot draw a hard line between life and death. Recent studies (admittedly after the book was written) on mice have shown that even four days after death their bodies are still showing genetic activity -- in fact it appears to increase. Other studies show that neurons and other cells can remain alive long after death. Is this life? That's for philosophers to ponder, but it does leave some wiggle room to explain how Drogo's and Rhaego's "lives" could have paid for death on the pyre while Viserys, thoroughly dead for months and hundreds of miles away could not. Which leads me to:

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

and Literally first quote in the Op. Happens after Mirri's ritual in the tent. I even list what chapter so i dont have to deal with this. Now im sure you can find some argument that Dany is mistaken or hallucinating or something but it's reaching. The text clearly says she feels movement from with in the egg. 

As you note, that scene takes place after Mirri has just killed baby Rhaego, months after and hundreds of miles away from Vaes Dothrak and Viserys. So how you can claim beyond doubt that this is Viserys animating the egg and not Rhaego is beyond me.

I'm all for theorizing, but it's nice to have some shred of evidence to back it up. There is none that I can see that points to Viserys as Viserion, and plenty, as I've listed that points to Rhaego.

The text is plain: Only life can pay for death. The only lives in the pyre were MDD, Drogo and (I suspect) Rhaego.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Drogo and Rhaego are not as dead as Viserys. First of all, as I mentioned, the Dothraki are not fully dead until their bodies have been consumed by fire. You say this is just a belief, so it has no bearing. But beliefs matter greatly in this world. Kings blood has magical power not because it is actually different from normal blood, but because people believe it is different. This is why Melisandre seeks it out for her spells, even if it is bastard blood.

I'm not saying it's just a belief & has no bearing - I'm saying if it's true then it's true for everyone - not just the Dothraki. Of course this is just my opinion on how religion/s work. This is a fantasy novel so it's quite possible ALL the religions in the book are real & true & what happens when you die depends on what you believe. 

 

13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Secondly, with both Drogo and Rhaego only recently dead, who is to say that their bodies still did not maintain some essence of life? To this day, science cannot draw a hard line between life and death. Recent studies (admittedly after the book was written) on mice have shown that even four days after death their bodies are still showing genetic activity -- in fact it appears to increase. Other studies show that neurons and other cells can remain alive long after death. Is this life? That's for philosophers to ponder, but it does leave some wiggle room to explain how Drogo's and Rhaego's "lives" could have paid for death on the pyre while Viserys, thoroughly dead for months and hundreds of miles away could not

Now this I can buy into. Their souls lingering or bodies still being alive because they have just recently died sounds like a plausible possibility to me. Of course this wouldn't be particular to the Dothraki though. 

 

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

As you note, that scene takes place after Mirri has just killed baby Rhaego, months after and hundreds of miles away from Vaes Dothrak and Viserys. So how you can claim beyond doubt that this is Viserys animating the egg and not Rhaego is beyond me.

I'm all for theorizing, but it's nice to have some shred of evidence to back it up. There is none that I can see that points to Viserys as Viserion, and plenty, as I've listed that points to Rhaego.

I agree here as well. It doesn't make any sense for an egg inhabited by Viserys' soul to show signs of life - not after Viserys dies, but after Rhaego dies. That's definitely evidence that Rhaego inhabited that egg. 

[AlaskanSandman]

15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Huh? Common knowledge has nothing to do with Mirri. She's about as uncommon as you could get.

She lived and studied in Asshai, the place where (at some level) dragons stir beneath the sunrise, where Ilyrio can plausibly claim to have got the dragon eggs. We don't know for a fact that Mirri has dragonlore, but we can't put a limit on how much she knows - she might know all there is to know.

Asshai seems to be a hotbed of advanced learning, and experts in multiple topics were willing to pass on their knowledge to Mirri. She earned the title 'Maegi' - the wise.

And she's got religion too. Many readers take her words as prophetic. That's a key point, because the hatching does need something 'extra' - some knowledge or magic to make the ritual work - and that something can only come from the supernatural side.

It's possible that this 'deus ex machina' operated on Dany, but I don't think so: when Dany has a vision, we see it too. Besides, Dany says she's acting on what she learned from Mirri - which can only be that if you want something huge, you have to make a huge sacrifice - everything you have, in fact.

Big deal, so any one in Asshai should be able to hatch dragon eggs under that line of thought. Dany's dragon eggs came from Asshai too. So appartently Asshai is just sitting around on a bunch of dragon eggs for fun? No, i doubt they know how to hatch them and i doubt Mirri did too. 

I think it's more likely that it was a combination of their ignorant actions than believing Mirri knows how to hatch dragons.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, one more thought and then I'll bow out.

Drogo and Rhaego are not as dead as Viserys. First of all, as I mentioned, the Dothraki are not fully dead until their bodies have been consumed by fire. You say this is just a belief, so it has no bearing. But beliefs matter greatly in this world. Kings blood has magical power not because it is actually different from normal blood, but because people believe it is different. This is why Melisandre seeks it out for her spells, even if it is bastard blood.

Secondly, with both Drogo and Rhaego only recently dead, who is to say that their bodies still did not maintain some essence of life? To this day, science cannot draw a hard line between life and death. Recent studies (admittedly after the book was written) on mice have shown that even four days after death their bodies are still showing genetic activity -- in fact it appears to increase. Other studies show that neurons and other cells can remain alive long after death. Is this life? That's for philosophers to ponder, but it does leave some wiggle room to explain how Drogo's and Rhaego's "lives" could have paid for death on the pyre while Viserys, thoroughly dead for months and hundreds of miles away could not. Which leads me to:

As you note, that scene takes place after Mirri has just killed baby Rhaego, months after and hundreds of miles away from Vaes Dothrak and Viserys. So how you can claim beyond doubt that this is Viserys animating the egg and not Rhaego is beyond me.

I'm all for theorizing, but it's nice to have some shred of evidence to back it up. There is none that I can see that points to Viserys as Viserion, and plenty, as I've listed that points to Rhaego.

The text is plain: Only life can pay for death. The only lives in the pyre were MDD, Drogo and (I suspect) Rhaego.

Well that's totally your speculation and no more. King's blood is likely just the same as normal blood for all we know. Beliefs or not. 

This is apparently cause you keep linking everything to the pyre. Which is against what the Op says. So this again falls under your opinion and backed by about the same amount of facts. Viserion's egg was moving before the pyre. So who ever's soul went into it, fire magic was not what caused this. So this kinda throws out your idea against what im saying. 

Viserys soul potentially went into the egg the night he died and was around the eggs. Not months later. 

Irregardless, the egg was moving before the pyre. So the pyre is only what hatched them, not seeded them. 

 

 

[Springwatch]

On 06/10/2017 at 4:29 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Big deal, so any one in Asshai should be able to hatch dragon eggs under that line of thought. Dany's dragon eggs came from Asshai too. So appartently Asshai is just sitting around on a bunch of dragon eggs for fun? No, i doubt they know how to hatch them and i doubt Mirri did too. 

I think it's more likely that it was a combination of their ignorant actions than believing Mirri knows how to hatch dragons.

You're not reading my posts No, that's not what I said..

It's likely Asshai has both dragon eggs and expertise. Something extra is needed, what I called the 'deux ex machina' - ie extra information or magic, supplied by the 'gods', and supplied now because this exact moment is the time of destiny, when the red star bleeds and cold winds blow etc, etc.

So either a giant hand comes down and completely overturns reality, or destiny is worked through people acting according to their nature and experience.

The second option is better. Targs through the ages have created massive fires and killed other people and themselves with the aim of hatching dragon eggs - so Dany isn't acting ignorantly or randomly, but from instinct or family tradition. Mirri has her backstory in strong magics - it would be a bit weird if that was irrelevant.

It seems to me we're supposed to underestimate Mirri - she's old (or not young), she's ugly, and she gets victimised in so many ways. But she's also a repeat of Maggy the Frog - also old, and ugly and despised. Cersei - the young and beautiful princess-type - strengthens the parallel by wanting  to have her whipped, like Dany has Mirri whipped. Cersei was wrong to underestimate Maggy, and Dany was wrong too. Crones mean wisdom.

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

You're not reading my posts No, that's not what I said..

It's likely Asshai has both dragon eggs and expertise. Something extra is needed, what I called the 'deux ex machina' - ie extra information or magic, supplied by the 'gods', and supplied now because this exact moment is the time of destiny, when the red star bleeds and cold winds blow etc, etc.

So either a giant hand comes down and completely overturns reality, or destiny is worked through people acting according to their nature and experience.

The second option is better. Targs through the ages have created massive fires and killed other people and themselves with the aim of hatching dragon eggs - so Dany isn't acting ignorantly or randomly, but from instinct or family tradition. Mirri has her backstory in strong magics - it would be a bit weird if that was irrelevant.

It seems to me we're supposed to underestimate Mirri - she's old (or not young), she's ugly, and she gets victimised in so many ways. But she's also a repeat of Maggy the Frog - also old, and ugly and despised. Cersei - the young and beautiful princess-type - strengthens the parallel by wanting  to have her whipped, like Dany has Mirri whipped. Cersei was wrong to underestimate Maggy, and Dany was wrong too. Crones mean wisdom.

Awwwww i felt so bad reading your lead in  Im so sorry, i think i did misunderstand what you were saying. I was rushing to reply to many post and dont think i fully understood yours, im sorry!

I see what your saying now about a mix of her knowledge and destiny and i can definitely see a mix of that happening. I very much believe Mirri had a part in the hatching of the dragons, i just think she didn't likely know the whole piece (which i believe is the seeding of the eggs first). The seeding the eggs things seems to be legit to me, given everything ive read and seen. Especially given the rise of Dragons near the dance and the many children of Jaehaerys around that time. Since Targaryens burn their dead, its easy to see how this seeding was happening even though the Targaryen's may have been unaware of its importance. 

The Targaryens seem to know that blood is important too as they practiced inbreeding for many years untill around the dance, their blood became too diluted. They also seem to figure a close proximity is either needed for the dragon and its rider and or the hatcher (which may only be females who can hatch, which would explain many historic incidents). Lastly fire seems to have been needed as Aegon the V seems to think so and may have been going off Targaryen tradition that he knew of, all while not realizing he lacked a genetic hatcher needed. So almost the full picture for Aegon V, but shy at least one thing listed.

Mirri. What did Mirri do. Well all we know for a fact is she did a shadow binding ritual in the text, then sang some chant upon burning in the pyre. The shadow binding i think is what killed Rhaego and left Drogo a vegetable, while her chanting i think just gave Dany fire protection.

Dany shouldnt be fire proof and Mirri chanting is literally the only thing that can account for this. So i dont think it was a birthing spell but rather a spell to protect dany. This is just my opinion though. 

Mirri does share parallels though as you point out, but im not convinced she knows the magic that well. Way more than Dany to be sure, and maybe even more than Melisandre, its hard to say. Though i doubt Mel can hatch them any more than Mirri, even given destiny. 

Mirri helped make it possible by killing Rhaego and Drogo on accident by dabbling in blood magic and Jorah disobeying her. The chant at the end though could only have been fire protection though as far as i can see. I may need time to step back and re-evaluate things though, always a good thing to do. 

Mirri and Dany though i think ignorantly and together accidentally brought dragons back into the world, binding them to Dany's bloodline (what ever her true lineage is). Not recreating what happened in the past, but what was needed to bring them back from stone and bind them to some one by blood again.

[Springwatch]

Ah, ok I don't disagree with anything much here - interesting ideas and distinctly possible. I don't think anyone else will hatch dragons from fossil eggs because there were a lot of steps before the eggs even got to the pyre - and none of that stage was planned or directed by anyone. Even if Dany explained what happened to a shadowbinder, they couldn't duplicate everything.

I agree the fireproofing most likely came from Mirri's song - maybe it's essential to have both extreme fire heat and a Targ very close to hatch these eggs. I don't think she'd be literally singing the Moonsinger songs, because that sounds more like a metaphor to me - Dany is the mother of dragons, and Mirri is the midwife.

Anyway, the only snag is we haven't seen a fireproof red priest yet. Mel seemed to reach her point of maximum endurance just keeping the glamour on Rattleshirt. Of course, Mirri was suffering a lot too...

[300 H&H Magnum]

"only death can pay for life" is an example of a very dangerous belief that isn't true.  Beric was brought back to some semblance of life and Thoros had no need to sacrifice another life to make the magic work. 

Belief can be dangerous.  I think this belongs to the same category like "there is power in king's blood" that Mel is harping about. 

Let's look back to Summerhall.  A whole lot of people with king's blood died that day.  The fire was certainly of a very high temperature.  Dragons eggs aplenty.  Rituals were performed after Aegon V consulted with many supposedly knowledgeable people.  Yet no dragons hatched.  There were deaths and no dragons hatched from the eggs. 

We need to be careful before we take these sayings and beliefs and accept them as gospel.  The main characters need to be even more careful. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

"only death can pay for life" is an example of a very dangerous belief that isn't true.  Beric was brought back to some semblance of life and Thoros had no need to sacrifice another life to make the magic work. 

Belief can be dangerous.  I think this belongs to the same category like "there is power in king's blood" that Mel is harping about. 

Let's look back to Summerhall.  A whole lot of people with king's blood died that day.  The fire was certainly of a very high temperature.  Dragons eggs aplenty.  Rituals were performed after Aegon V consulted with many supposedly knowledgeable people.  Yet no dragons hatched.  There were deaths and no dragons hatched from the eggs. 

We need to be careful before we take these sayings and beliefs and accept them as gospel.  The main characters need to be even more careful. 

Except your missing the part about Aegon the V still missing a key factor. A genetic hatcher or a blood bond to the eggs. The Eggs Aegon would have would be Targaryen eggs, and Aegon isn't Targaryen by blood enough.  The idea is that the eggs Dany has are from Asshai and unseeded by any souls. So the souls of the three eggs are bound to Dany by the shadow binding magic of Mirri in the text. (Something JonSuburbs keeps missing, the order of events.), this is why i dont think Mirri is in one of the eggs, as she dies on the pyre, after the eggs have already been seeded in the tent by the last 2 souls. The pyre is what hatched the now seeded eggs, bound by blood to Dany, who receives her fire magic from Mirri upon chanting. Imo. JonSuburbs could be right about Mirri. Im not pompous enough like some to argue so blindly. The point is the idea of the eggs needing to be seeded by souls, and that Mirri and Dany inadvertently brought dragons back into the world through their joined ignorance. 

Some dont like the idea of Viserys cause they can't wrap their heads around the idea that Viserys was given to the fires and seeded the egg that night.  

Some dont like the idea that Drogo could seed an egg as he's not a Targaryen or a known skinchanger. Never mind the Dothraki reverence for Horses, a man not being a man if he can't ride a horse, the Dothraki let their bloodriders even share their wives before sharing their mounts (something we know dragons wont even let happen. Only one rider may ride a dragon while that rider is alive as far as we know.) Not to mention their close proximity to the Ifequevron, and seeming reverence for them. I could keep going, but enough really to suggest the Dothraki may actually have the same abilities as the Targaryens. The Dothraki even give their horse to the flame when the rider dies and is burned on a pyre. Bells in their hair so the CotF can even hear them coming? I mean i can just keep going about the odd things to do with the Dothraki that point to what im saying.

All in all just an idea or possible observation. Since theres very few new ideas on this forum and most people just spend years on here bashing ideas, i find it fun to at least put out new ideas i havn't seen kicked around yet. People can ultimately take it for what they want though.