If the War of the Five Kings hadn’t happened

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

If the War of the Five Kings hadn’t happened, who do you think Tommen and Myrcella would have been married to? 

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

If the War of the Five Kings hadn’t happened, who do you think Tommen and Myrcella would have been married to? 

Trystane and Margaery

[falcotron]

4 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

If the War of the Five Kings hadn’t happened, who do you think Tommen and Myrcella would have been married to? 

It depends on why the war didn't happen, and what happened instead.

It's pretty hard to imagine a scenario where the twincest is kept under wraps without anyone doing any of the things that led to war. And even then, it depends on whether Robert is still alive, whether there was a serious threat or war or none at all, etc.

And is the twincest did come out but there was no war, the best thing I can imagine for Tommen and Myrcella is that the war was avoided because Renly and Ned pulled off a bloodless coup and offered Tywin pretty good terms. So, their parents are dead, but they're legitimized as Tywin's heirs, and he can get them some decent spouses.

On the other hand, if the war was avoided because Robert survived and got the evidence from Jon or Ned and caught Tywin by surprised and locked up the whole family… then, if they're alive at all, the kids are probably not legitimized, and attainted with their parents, and living as wards of their lord and uncle, and they'll be lucky to marry a hedge knight and a struggling petty merchant immigrant from Essos.

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

If the War of the Five Kings hadn’t happened, who do you think Tommen and Myrcella would have been married to? 

They something else would have happened to send Myrcella to Dorne and have Tommen marry Margery so the story could continue as written 

[DominusNovus]

23 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

They something else would have happened to send Myrcella to Dorne and have Tommen marry Margery so the story could continue as written 

Why do you even bother to answer this hypotheticals when you’re so opposed to their very premise and have no interest in taking them seriously?

Anyway, the answer to the question asked really depends on the ‘how’ of the matter, as already stated.  For example, is the war avoided through some means that actually avoids any comparable conflict, or does some other war replace it?

A scenario in which, say, Cersei and Jaime are caught in Winterfell, would likely result a curbstomp against the Lannisters, should Tywin be forced to fight, but there’s still the likelyhood of a war going on between Casterly Rock and the Iron Throne.  On the other hand, in a scenario in which Ned manages to navigate the politics of King’s Landing a little better, and makes common cause with Renly or Stannis more capably, there might be no war at all.  A scenario in which Jon Arryn never dies is radically different from either of these.

Regardless, Varys and Littlefinger are both still incentivized to scheme to destablize the realm, so there will be some cracks as they try to pit major players against each other.

With Northern forces not drawn south, Mance has no chance (heh).  Ned or Robb (whomever is in Winterfell in this scenario) might negotiate from a position of strength and allow the Wildlings south of the Wall, and either Stark would likely take the reports from both the Wildlings and the Watch (no reason to assume events North of the Wall proceed drastically differently) regarding the Others more seriously.

Dany’s plotline would likely stay the same except, without Tyrion to turn him and with Westeros united, fAegon likely sets sail to meet her in Meereen.  Maybe he has better luck than Quentyn.  On the other hand, if Robert is leading a war against the Lannisters, maybe there’s no attempt on Dany’s life, no vengeful Drogo planning a campaign against Westeros, Drogo lives, Rhaego is born, no dragons.

The Greyjoys probably have been building up their fleet for too long, so they might still try something, if there’s any serious distractions to the Iron Throne.  The Tyrells’ best case scenario is Robert living, Cersei dying/exiled/just not queen, so Margaery can marry Robert (or whichever Baratheon is king).  If there’s a war against the Lannisters, expect the Martells to take a much less negative view on the Baratheon dynasty, maybe even have Arienne marry the king (heh, Arienne/Stannis would be an amusing match).

In summation, almost every version is good for the Starks, good for the Tullys, bad for the Lannisters, and good for the Baratheons.  Good for the smallfolk, too.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 2:13 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Trystane and Margaery

Margaery maybe; binds the Tyrell to the throne without giving them the power of the first born.

Trystane never Lannisters and Dorne hate each other.

Lannisters might go for Lancel or another cousin to consolidate their power.

Robin or Edmure would be a good choice for Robert to keep the alliance going but he does not give a fuck so after the Stark marriage Cersei would probably get a bigger say in the other 2 kids futures.

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Margaery maybe; binds the Tyrell to the throne without giving them the power of the first born.

Trystane never Lannisters and Dorne hate each other.

Lannisters might go for Lancel or another cousin to consolidate their power.

Robin or Edmure would be a good choice for Robert to keep the alliance going but he does not give a fuck so after the Stark marriage Cersei would probably get a bigger say in the other 2 kids futures.

Lol they betrothed Myrcella to Dorne and Dorne still hated the Lannisters in the text. They likely do it for the exact same reason. Won't be able to betrothe her to SR because of Lysa. Bran is off the table because he's crippled and the Baratheons are already marrying a Stark. A cadet branch of the mother's family is an unwise move from both an alliance and an political perspective, not prestigious enough. There are really only a few options: Theon, Trystane, Willas, Robb, SR, Quentyn. Robb, SR, and Quentyn basically aren't options. Trystane brings a superficial (from Dorne's perspective) but visible concession to Dorne. Willas is only going to be an option if Margaery doesn't marry Tommen. Theon is prestigious enough and needs to be a ward/prisoner of the crown, but the wedding to him doesn't really bring any benefits from the Iron Islands.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Lol they betrothed Myrcella to Dorne and Dorne still hated the Lannisters in the text. They likely do it for the exact same reason.

The reason being that the Lannisters where at war with the north riverlands stormlands reach and dragonstone?

And even then it came down to chance of 1/3 out of the vale Dorne and iron isles.

Lysa should accept if Myrcella went to the vale, Hoster would make Edmure accept, but like I said Cersei would probably have the final say.

Tywin marries his cousin, the Lannisters fill the court with their own family and have a superiority complex so it would not be beyond the realms of possibility they go down that route, hell Jaime would name himself the true father given half a chance and happily fight the rest of the 7 kingdoms

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

The reason being that the Lannisters where at war with the north riverlands stormlands reach and dragonstone?

And even then it came down to chance of 1/3 out of the vale Dorne and iron isles.

Lysa should accept if Myrcella went to the vale, Hoster would make Edmure accept, but like I said Cersei would probably have the final say.

Tywin marries his cousin, the Lannisters fill the court with their own family and have a superiority complex so it would not be beyond the realms of possibility they go down that route, hell Jaime would name himself the true father given half a chance and happily fight the rest of the 7 kingdoms

Lysa would not betrothe SR to Myrcella. She is terrified of the Lannisters and LF's puppet. Hoster is bedridden and hasn't been made Edmure get married yet. Tywin was the heir to CR. He was not part of the royal family.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Lysa would not betrothe SR to Myrcella. She is terrified of the Lannisters and LF's puppet. Hoster is bedridden and hasn't been made Edmure get married yet. Tywin was the heir to CR. He was not part of the royal family.

Is she?

Is it because they killed her husband?

LF might object as a match with the crown could diminish his power over Lysa.

Maybe Hoster has guilt over Lysa on his death bed but if he stays true to form he would jump at the chance at a royal match.  Honour Duty Family and all that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Is she?

Is it because they killed her husband?

LF might object as a match with the crown could diminish his power over Lysa.

Maybe Hoster has guilt over Lysa on his death bed but if he stays true to form he would jump at the chance at a royal match.  Honour Duty Family and all that.

Yes she is terrified of the Lannisters. That's why she kept all her swords close at home. She also says this (not to Catelyn) in POV chapters. This is not a question. LF would almost certainly object. Otherwise he'd have suggested it when Joff was still alive.

Hoster is out of it. He doesn't know what is going on. And just because he arranges for a betrothal doesn't mean it goes through. Edmure is a grown man and can't be forced into anything. He has to agree.

[DominusNovus]

33 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes she is terrified of the Lannisters. That's why she kept all her swords close at home. She also says this (not to Catelyn) in POV chapters. This is not a question. LF would almost certainly object. Otherwise he'd have suggested it when Joff was still alive.

Hoster is out of it. He doesn't know what is going on. And just because he arranges for a betrothal doesn't mean it goes through. Edmure is a grown man and can't be forced into anything. He has to agree.

huh?  She killed her husband, so why is she terrified of the Lannisters?  I thought it was all an act to keep suspicion where LF wanted it.

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

huh?  She killed her husband, so why is she terrified of the Lannisters?  I thought it was all an act to keep suspicion where LF wanted it.

“You must not call me that. No word of your presence here must be allowed to reach King’s Landing. I do not mean to have my son endangered.”

“Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them”

Terrified of the Lannisters, terrified of what the Lannisters would do her son. Distinction without merit or difference

 

[DominusNovus]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

“You must not call me that. No word of your presence here must be allowed to reach King’s Landing. I do not mean to have my son endangered.”

“Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them”

Terrified of the Lannisters, terrified of what the Lannisters would do her son. Distinction without merit or difference

 

Again, she’s claiming the Lannisters commited a crime she herself is responsible for. She’s already pretended to be scared when she sent Cat the letter. Why are we assuming she’s being honest here?

[elder brother jonothor dar]

… and dropped it the instant the door closed. Catelyn saw her face change. It was as if the sun had gone behind a cloud. “Have you taken leave of your senses?” Lysa snapped at her. “To bring him here, without a word of permission, without so much as a warning, to drag us into your quarrels with the Lannisters …” “My quarrels?” Catelyn could scarce believe what she was hearing.

A very telling Freudian slip.

She has no quarrel with the Lannisters, far from sending Tyrion on his way she is eager to execute him.  This is not a person that fears the rains of castamere

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 9/28/2017 at 8:34 PM, DominusNovus said:

Why do you even bother to answer this hypotheticals when you’re so opposed to their very premise and have no interest in taking them seriously?

why do you dream of hypotheticals in a universe entirely of someone else's creation? 

On 9/28/2017 at 8:34 PM, DominusNovus said:

Anyway, the answer to the question asked really depends on the ‘how’ of the matter, as already stated.  For example, is the war avoided through some means that actually avoids any comparable conflict, or does some other war replace it?

A scenario in which, say, Cersei and Jaime are caught in Winterfell, would likely result a curbstomp against the Lannisters, should Tywin be forced to fight, but there’s still the likelyhood of a war going on between Casterly Rock and the Iron Throne.  On the other hand, in a scenario in which Ned manages to navigate the politics of King’s Landing a little better, and makes common cause with Renly or Stannis more capably, there might be no war at all.  A scenario in which Jon Arryn never dies is radically different from either of these.

But neither of those things are in any way in character of who you are talking about. So, why even state it to begin with? "What if characters were not like how they are written?" 

On 9/28/2017 at 8:34 PM, DominusNovus said:

Regardless, Varys and Littlefinger are both still incentivized to scheme to destablize the realm, so there will be some cracks as they try to pit major players against each other.

Of course, that  is how the story is written,

On 9/28/2017 at 8:34 PM, DominusNovus said:

With Northern forces not drawn south, Mance has no chance (heh).  Ned or Robb (whomever is in Winterfell in this scenario) might negotiate from a position of strength and allow the Wildlings south of the Wall, and either Stark would likely take the reports from both the Wildlings and the Watch (no reason to assume events North of the Wall proceed drastically differently) regarding the Others more seriously.

 But ned can't do politics. it is the core of his character. why would you write him fundamentally differently? 

On 9/28/2017 at 8:34 PM, DominusNovus said:

Dany’s plotline would likely stay the same except, without Tyrion to turn him and with Westeros united, fAegon likely sets sail to meet her in Meereen.  Maybe he has better luck than Quentyn.  On the other hand, if Robert is leading a war against the Lannisters, maybe there’s no attempt on Dany’s life, no vengeful Drogo planning a campaign against Westeros, Drogo lives, Rhaego is born, no dragons.

Again, something would have to happen to get Tyrion to essos. The fear of targs is central to King bob. That is why he wants her killed. Your scenarios are literally changing the basics of characters. you might as well write your own book. 

On 9/28/2017 at 8:34 PM, DominusNovus said:

The Greyjoys probably have been building up their fleet for too long, so they might still try something, if there’s any serious distractions to the Iron Throne.  The Tyrells’ best case scenario is Robert living, Cersei dying/exiled/just not queen, so Margaery can marry Robert (or whichever Baratheon is king).  If there’s a war against the Lannisters, expect the Martells to take a much less negative view on the Baratheon dynasty, maybe even have Arienne marry the king (heh, Arienne/Stannis would be an amusing match)

There would have to be a distraction to the throne. otherwise, the IB are just a side note

On 9/28/2017 at 8:34 PM, DominusNovus said:

In summation, almost every version is good for the Starks, good for the Tullys, bad for the Lannisters, and good for the Baratheons.  Good for the smallfolk, too.

So, good for fav characters, bad for the readers

[Фейсал]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

why do you dream of hypotheticals in a universe entirely of someone else's creation? 

 

Because it's fun. The way the story is written; very minor change can change the entire course of a plot line/story and that's fun to talk about.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Generally these threads are boring and poorly thought out.  What they tend to ignore is the butter fly effect.

Either butter fly effect of other events that will remain the same in the senario and interferes with the new narrative. 

Or the new events butterfly effect on existing events.

[Pikachu101]

On 27/09/2017 at 11:07 PM, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

If the War of the Five Kings hadn’t happened, who do you think Tommen and Myrcella would have been married to? 

That's not possible, the only way for TWotFK to not happen is by Jon Arryn revealing Cersei's affair thus preventing Stannis and Renly from taking arms against the crown in the first place. 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

That's not possible, the only way for TWotFK to not happen is by Jon Arryn revealing Cersei's affair thus preventing Stannis and Renly from taking arms against the crown in the first place. 

Another great spring sickness happens killing everybody of consequence.

Ned died before Jon Arryn so never gos south.

Jons final words are the boy is a bastard.  Robert is too dumb to realise it's Joff hes talking about and kills LF, Lysa and Robin.

Plenty of ways none that make the story any better