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If the War of the Five Kings hadn’t happened


Jaehaerys Tyrell

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6 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

That's not possible, the only way for TWotFK to not happen is by Jon Arryn revealing Cersei's affair thus preventing Stannis and Renly from taking arms against the crown in the first place. 

Ned says no to going to KL. Cat starts to protest, Ned says no. 

Tywin or someone else becomes hand. 

Robert dies. 

Cersei rules via Goff. 

Goff goes mad king and the kingdom revolts against lannisters and Dany rolls up with dragons 5 seasons early. 

Jon dies as usual and stays dead. 

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12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

why do you dream of hypotheticals in a universe entirely of someone else's creation? 

Because.

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

But neither of those things are in any way in character of who you are talking about. So, why even state it to begin with? "What if characters were not like how they are written?" 

Ned allying with Renly? Sure, its out of character.  Ned allying with Littlefinger? Also out of character.  Too bad it happens in the books.  Cersei and Jaime getting caught in Winterfell isn't out of character (particularly since it happens in the books), its just a matter of whether it become common knowledge.

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

But ned can't do politics. it is the core of his character. why would you write him fundamentally differently? 

I disagree with your assessment of Ned.  He's woefully unequipped for being thrown in the deep end of southern politics, but he clearly is politically savvy enough to govern the North.  I read Ned's character as someone who knows exactly had to handle people under the circumstances in which he's familiar, but King's Landing is so alien to him that he doesn't have time to re-orient himself.

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So, good for fav characters, bad for the readers

The early novels are very kind to the Lannisters, who achieve so much, despite the recklessness of Cersei and Jaime.  If anything changes in those early events, its likely to result in worse situations for the Lannisters.

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2 hours ago, MrJay said:

Ned says no to going to KL. Cat starts to protest, Ned says no. 

Tywin or someone else becomes hand. 

Robert dies. 

Cersei rules via Goff. 

Goff goes mad king and the kingdom revolts against lannisters and Dany rolls up with dragons 5 seasons early. 

Jon dies as usual and stays dead. 

Even if Ned said no Robert still wouldn't make a Lannister Hand because he needs someone he can trust, he'd probably choose Stannis or Renly before Tywin. Regardless of whose Hand if Joffrey gets crowned king Stannis and Renly will rebel against him, the only difference would be because Ned was never executed it would be a war between four kings rather than five. 

As for Dany her storyline was never affected by Westeros so she'll continue as she was.

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24 minutes ago, Фейсал said:

I'm mildly curious - if Ned stayed in Winterfell and got a letter stating Joffrey was a bastard; would he believe it or would honor compel him to fight for Robert's ''son''?

It depends. Stannis wouldn't lie, but he might jump to conclusions. If the letter made Stannis's evidence clear, Ned would accept it, but otherwise, he'd want to question Stannis before deciding. Meanwhile, if the letter were instead from Jon Arryn, he'd accept it without question, but if it were from Renly he'd probably dismiss it.

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14 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Ah, the love of fan fic is always the key 

You know, this isn’t the Bible or the Koran, or any other Holy Writ.  The readers are free to ponder counterfactuals without violating the sanctity of the sacred word.  Everyone has different ways of enjoying the books, and there is no need to denigrate any of those particular ways.

I note this, particularly, in light of that recent discussion regarding the counterfactual supposition of Aegon the Conquerer never invading Westeros.  I recall you engaging in that conversation on its own merits, even going so far as to argue in favor of the plausibility of a continued Hoare dominion over the Riverlands, based in Harrenhal.  Said argument was, I cannot help but note with some satisfaction, in direct contrast to the written text that desribes Harrenhal, repeatedly, as a massive waste.  Imagining Harrenhal as a practical seat of power is just as contrary to the text as imagining Ned as a master political operator in King’s Landing.

Of course, if you like to imagine Harrenhal as such or explore the idea of it as the capital of a great kingdom, you’re free to do so.  It could be very fun.

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6 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

You know, this isn’t the Bible or the Koran, or any other Holy Writ.  The readers are free to ponder counterfactuals without violating the sanctity of the sacred word.  Everyone has different ways of enjoying the books, and there is no need to denigrate any of those particular ways.

your responses say otherwise 

6 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

I note this, particularly, in light of that recent discussion regarding the counterfactual supposition of Aegon the Conquerer never invading Westeros.  I recall you engaging in that conversation on its own merits, even going so far as to argue in favor of the plausibility of a continued Hoare dominion over the Riverlands, based in Harrenhal.  Said argument was, I cannot help but note with some satisfaction, in direct contrast to the written text that desribes Harrenhal, repeatedly, as a massive waste.  Imagining Harrenhal as a practical seat of power is just as contrary to the text as imagining Ned as a master political operator in King’s Landing.

Again, it is only a waste without a crown behind it. The Hoares worked very hard to secure their kingdom. they could afford to build it. 

6 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

Of course, if you like to imagine Harrenhal as such or explore the idea of it as the capital of a great kingdom, you’re free to do so.  It could be very fun.

I have, but in speculation about the future of the novels, not in fan fic about stories already written 

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7 hours ago, DominusNovus said:

You know, this isn’t the Bible or the Koran, or any other Holy Writ.  The readers are free to ponder counterfactuals without violating the sanctity of the sacred word.

It's worth noting that at least Jews and most kinds of Muslims, if not many Christians, are actually expected to ponder counterfactuals like this in their sacred word.*

Anyway, if the purpose is just to come up with fan fiction where your favorite characters get a happy ending, it's pretty silly. But if the purpose is to get into the characters' minds better, or to find places where we don't know as much about the scenario as we thought we did, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with it. And what you're doing is clearly a lot closer to the latter than the former, so it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

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* For example, the Bible says to celebrate Passover for 7 days. But the midrash argues that the priests were not theologically compelled to extend Passover from 1 day to 7, and only did it to highlight the difference between the "at great haste" first Passover and the relaxed second Passover, and therefore, if they hadn't made that choice, the Bible would say 1 day, and it would be correct for Jews to celebrate it for 1 day today. And there are opinions on whether or not diaspora Jews who extended the 7 days to 8 because of their time zone difference would have to extend a 1-day Passover to 2 days.

 

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On 30/09/2017 at 9:12 PM, Фейсал said:

I'm mildly curious - if Ned stayed in Winterfell and got a letter stating Joffrey was a bastard; would he believe it or would honor compel him to fight for Robert's ''son''?

Ned's already been through the horrors of war; Robert's Rebellion cost him his father, brother, and sister so I doubt he'd readily wage war against Robert's son regardless of Stannis' proof. 

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