How Beautiful Was Ashara Dayne?

[Angel Eyes]

On 9/30/2017 at 6:54 PM, maudisdottir said:

If you think of them as the celebrities of Westeros, then you can see that it's not always the most classically beautiful people that get all the attention, it's also the "hot" ones. Elia was unfavourably compared with Ashara, even though she was considered a beauty of sorts herself. But who's going to look at Eva Longoria when Elizabeth Taylor walks into the room?

Depends on if you consider Elizabeth Taylor beautiful. 

 

11 hours ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

When i think of Ashara Dayne I picture Alexandra Daddario

And I picture Daisy Ridley.

[Corvo the Crow]

She must have been a rare beauty to make even a boy Ned who was never the boy he was forget his honor.

I believe she was far more beautiful than Dany. There are many people like Dany in the lands that formerly belonged to the Valyrian freehold and even the brothels of King's Landing. There are no women like Ashara, there is only Ashara.

 

And here's some Catelyn, she has seen her in the tourney, right?

 

Quote

The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

And Catelyn herself is beautiful despite her age. Even Jaime hits on her

[Tai Pan]

The people of the time are not constantly watching the beautiful on TV, print media, and internet every hour of every day.  Even just a clear skinned, slender woman with plain features would look attractive.  Without exposure to the carefully selected beautiful people in the entertainment media that we have today the average person in those times are easy to impress.  We know Ashara was very attractive and found to be so by the many.  She's lovely and even today we may find her lovely also.

This calls for an example so here it is.  My image of Ashara is that of a CNN anchorwoman Natalie Allen three decades ago.  Ashara was much younger so picture Natalie Allen at 20 years of age.  Take 30 years off and you get Ashara.

http://www.cnn.com/profiles/natalie-allen-profile

 

[purple-eyes]

Of course she is incredibly beautiful. 

The proof:

in official APP, she was said that “one of the most beautiful women of her time”. You could argue she is just “one of “, but literally nobody else got a comment like this, such as lyanna, Elia, cersei, cat, Lysa, sansa, etc. 

 

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Jon Connington was drooling all over Rhaegar and yet he asked her for a dance. Pretty telling, I think.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 10/8/2017 at 5:09 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

And here's some Catelyn, she has seen her in the tourney, right?

Was Catelyn at the tourney though since we know she met Ned for the first time before she was set to marry him? Or is she just going by what she heard about Ashara?

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Was Catelyn at the tourney though since we know she met Ned for the first time before she was set to marry him? Or is she just going by what she heard about Ashara?

Good point. I don't think we have anything whether she was there or not but wouldn't the logical thing is to assume she was there? I mean her betrothed was there, this was the biggest tourney in decades, perhaps in living memory, host is her father's bannermen and she lives next door if we go by Westerosi lords' land sizes and distances. Why wouldn't she be there, if she wasn't there. This should also raise a few questions itself.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Good point. I don't think we have anything whether she was there or not but wouldn't the logical thing is to assume she was there? I mean her betrothed was there, this was the biggest tourney in decades, perhaps in living memory, host is her father's bannermen and she lives next door if we go by Westerosi lords' land sizes and distances. Why wouldn't she be there, if she wasn't there. This should also raise a few questions itself.

I agree that it would be logical to assume that she was there. It's the fact that she and Ned had never met before marrying that's always given me pause. I would think that she would have met Brandon's siblings had she been there. I personally had assumed that the reason she wasn't there was because of the duel between LF/Brandon, Lysa's forced abortion, but it seems I effed up my timeline.

To get back on topic though, I think Ashara turning heads was enough. I always wondered how old she was when Oberyn and Elia went to visit Starfall during their grand marriage tour.

[maudisdottir]

My preferred theory (B+A=doesn't really matter) would rest on Cat not being at the tourney, and as she isn't mentioned as being there and doesn't reminisce about it, then for all intents and purposes she wasn't there, until George tells us otherwise. Having not laid eyes upon Ned until their wedding would point to her definitely not being there, unless Ned was so plain and uninteresting that she didn't even notice him at the tourney, but that makes no sense considering she was betrothed to his brother. Surely she would have been introduced to him, even if she brushed him off because her honey was so much hotter and more charming. I could see Brandon pushing for her not to be there, if this was his last hurrah before settling down. But we just don't know.

None of the Tullys are noted to be there. It's weird (because of the Whent connection and Hoster being LP of the Riverlands) but we can only go by what the text tells us, and nobody (including Catelyn) says she was there.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Almost as beautiful as Rhaegar.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Ashara was very beautiful .Not as pretty as Daenerys ,who has become the measuring stick for pretty . While Dany has the unworldly beauty , Ashara had the unattainable beauty , when men see her they automatically think that she was taken ,that could be why everybody thinks her and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal . And also why Ashara would fall for Ned , because he is the only one showing interest in her .

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Ashara was very beautiful .Not as pretty as Daenerys ,who has become the measuring stick for pretty . While Dany has the unworldly beauty , Ashara had the unattainable beauty , when men see her they automatically think that she was taken ,that could be why everybody thinks her and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal . And also why Ashara would fall for Ned , because he is the only one showing interest in her .

Those who look like Daenaerys isn't a common sight in the free cities, remnants of the old freehold. Ashara is uncommon at least in Westeros.

 

Here are two

Quote

"A maiden? I know the way of that." Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra."

In the corner of the room, a man sat in a pool of shadow, with a whore squirming on his lap. I never saw that girl. If I had, I would have taken her upstairs instead of freckles. She was younger than the others, slim and pretty, with long silvery hair. Lyseni, at a guess … but the man whose lap she filled was from the Seven Kingdoms. Burly and broad-shouldered, forty if he was a day, and maybe older. Half his head was bald, but coarse stubble covered his cheeks and chin, and hair grew thickly down his arms, sprouting even from his knuckles.

And even in the Seven Kingdoms there are whores who share some features with Dany.

Quote

As the black-skinned girl led him up the stairs, she said, "Poor Dancy. She has a fortnight to get my lord to choose her. Elsewise she loses her black pearls to Marei."

Marei was a cool, pale, delicate girl Tyrion had noticed once or twice. Green eyes and porcelain skin, long straight silvery hair, very lovely, but too solemn by half. "I'd hate to have the poor child lose her pearls on account of me."

"Then take her upstairs next time."

 

Remember Targaryens are in Westeros for over four hundred years, Valyrians even more so. Dragonseeds alone have been around for the said time who knows for how long have "Valyrianseeds" been produced by Velaryons, Celtigars, any Valyrian vassals of theirs and even their households of Valyrian descent.

Targaryens were seen god-like by the smallfolk due to their appearance and dragons, who is to say Valyrians without dragons were seen demigod-like?

Serenei of Lys and her daughter Shiera are two others. Serenei even shares the eyes with Danaerys.

 

Ashara, even without the much loved silvery-gold hair of Valyrians, is very beautiful. Speaks for itself I think.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder but Ashara Dayne must have been exceptionally attractive even among the pretty highborn ladies. She's been dead for nearly two decades and yet people never fail to mention how beautiful she was when they talk about her. 

I'm imagining someone whom almost everyone would notice at a party and would consider above average looking if not outright stunning. She was probably classically beautiful, yet had a distinct look that set her apart, but wasn't otherworldly looking like the Targaryens. 

I'd hate to give some real world equivalents but maybe someone like younger Angelina Jolie, Aishwarya Rai or Scarlett Johansson. I'm sure there are people who think these women are meh or outright ugly, but it's safe to say they are a minority. 

[purple-eyes]

On 11/4/2017 at 4:20 PM, maudisdottir said:

My preferred theory (B+A=doesn't really matter) would rest on Cat not being at the tourney, and as she isn't mentioned as being there and doesn't reminisce about it, then for all intents and purposes she wasn't there, until George tells us otherwise. Having not laid eyes upon Ned until their wedding would point to her definitely not being there, unless Ned was so plain and uninteresting that she didn't even notice him at the tourney, but that makes no sense considering she was betrothed to his brother. Surely she would have been introduced to him, even if she brushed him off because her honey was so much hotter and more charming. I could see Brandon pushing for her not to be there, if this was his last hurrah before settling down. But we just don't know.

None of the Tullys are noted to be there. It's weird (because of the Whent connection and Hoster being LP of the Riverlands) but we can only go by what the text tells us, and nobody (including Catelyn) says she was there.

Not just House Tully, but also Rickard Stark was absent from Tourney. The absense of Tully and Stark was likely due to the upcoming wedding of Cat and Brandon. Rickard and Hoster had to prepare for wedding. This can also explain why Cat was not there, she is the bride-to-be and also the de facto lady of Riverrun. 

[Corvo the Crow]

21 hours ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder but Ashara Dayne must have been exceptionally attractive even among the pretty highborn ladies. She's been dead for nearly two decades and yet people never fail to mention how beautiful she was when they talk about her. 

I'm imagining someone whom almost everyone would notice at a party and would consider above average looking if not outright stunning. She was probably classically beautiful, yet had a distinct look that set her apart, but wasn't otherworldly looking like the Targaryens. 

I'd hate to give some real world equivalents but maybe someone like younger Angelina Jolie, Aishwarya Rai or Scarlett Johansson. I'm sure there are people who think these women are meh or outright ugly, but it's safe to say they are a minority. 

Count me among them. I think people confuse attractiveness and beauty; Angelina Jolie, for example, is a very attractive woman, but she isn't beautiful. I am not saying she is ugly, not being beautiful and being ugly are very different things and you can still be somewhat attractive while being ugly.

I've always thought the closest real world representation of Ashara as Liv Tyler, especially as her portrayal of Arwen; Though there are those who are far more beautiful then her she is still a very beautiful women and very attractive, even more attractive than some of those far more beautifuls.

For an attempt at better explaining the first part, with the used examples; In beauty Liv Tyler > Angelina Jolie but in attractiveness Angelina Jolie > Liv Tyler

[Bullrout]

On 11/7/2017 at 1:47 AM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Ashara was very beautiful .Not as pretty as Daenerys ,who has become the measuring stick for pretty . While Dany has the unworldly beauty , Ashara had the unattainable beauty , when men see her they automatically think that she was taken ,that could be why everybody thinks her and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal . And also why Ashara would fall for Ned , because he is the only one showing interest in her .

I will agree.  Ashara was one of the most beautiful women at the tourney.  I will also agree that Daenerys is the most beautiful of all. 

Many men danced with Ashara that day.  Opposites attract so it may explain why the beautiful Ashara fell in love with the coarse northman. 

On 11/7/2017 at 5:37 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Those who look like Daenaerys isn't a common sight in the free cities, remnants of the old freehold. Ashara is uncommon at least in Westeros.

 

Here are two

And even in the Seven Kingdoms there are whores who share some features with Dany.

 

Remember Targaryens are in Westeros for over four hundred years, Valyrians even more so. Dragonseeds alone have been around for the said time who knows for how long have "Valyrianseeds" been produced by Velaryons, Celtigars, any Valyrian vassals of theirs and even their households of Valyrian descent.

Targaryens were seen god-like by the smallfolk due to their appearance and dragons, who is to say Valyrians without dragons were seen demigod-like?

Serenei of Lys and her daughter Shiera are two others. Serenei even shares the eyes with Danaerys.

 

Ashara, even without the much loved silvery-gold hair of Valyrians, is very beautiful. Speaks for itself I think.

There are many girls who carry the Valyrian traits of silver gold hair and fine features in Lys but that is not saying they all look like Targaryens.  The shape of the face, nose, eyes, and lips can significantly differ.  Two people can have the same hair color and delicate features but yet still look quite different.  They're not clones and they're not even identical twins. 

[They see me R'hollin]

On 28/09/2017 at 3:50 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

One of the things I dislike about this series is how so many characters are described as absurdly beautiful. How can their beauty be so rare if there are fifteen other characters described the same way? 

Because in a vast world without photography all information regarding someone's experience is portrayed through word of mouth, and people are very biased when it comes to others' looks. The reason why Ashara Dayne is so absurdly beautiful is because Barristan believes she is. 

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, They see me R'hollin said:

Because in a vast world without photography all information regarding someone's experience is portrayed through word of mouth, and people are very biased when it comes to others' looks. The reason why Ashara Dayne is so absurdly beautiful is because Barristan believes she is. 

Old Barristan would have been to  many feasts, banquets, tourneys, melees etc. in his youth I believe, so he would have seen enough people to compare.

[Angel Eyes]

Maybe GRRM has a thing for purple eyes?...

[Corvo the Crow]

20 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Maybe GRRM has a thing for purple eyes?...

I know of another novel series with a medieval setting that has purple eyes; Andrzej Sapkowskis the Witcher series. There are even a character or two with the Targaryen like platin hair. Maybe it is a medieval fantasy thingy?

Funnily enough Charles Dance(Tywin) did VO for a character (Emperor Emhyr Var Emreis) in Witcher games based on the novels.