So what's the connection between ghost and bloodraven?

[Ghost_with_the_most]

 So we know bloodraven has physical similarities with the weirwood trees and uses them to watch below the wall. When Jon finds ghost, he is described as having the same physical characteristics as bloodraven, as well as the weirwood trees. He's also the only pup with his eyes open, the same red eyes as bloodraven. Theon calls ghost an albino,  just like bloodraven. Couple ghost's appearance with his strange behavior at critical moments in Jon's story and it seems to me that there is definitely some connection? Just curious what you guys think?

[kissdbyfire]

The connection is the Old Gods. Remember, Bloodraven is half First Men on his mother's side.

ASoS, Jon

“Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.”

 

[Stormking902]

Ghost is connected to the old gods as is Bloodraven and IMO Bloodraven warged Ghosts mom and brought her as far South as possible and then warged the Stag to kill the mother Direwolf as a warning to the Starks but unfortunately no one listened........ 

[White Ravens]

3 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Ghost is connected to the old gods as is Bloodraven and IMO Bloodraven warged Ghosts mom and brought her as far South as possible and then warged the Stag to kill the mother Direwolf as a warning to the Starks but unfortunately no one listened........ 

That's a lot of warging to send a message.  And it's a disturbing message too, with the sigil of House Stark slain by the sigil of House Baratheon and ominous implications for all of Westeros that...

"Oh look!  Puppies!!!"

Maybe Bloodraven doesn't communicate so well after all.

[Lost Melnibonean]

30 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

That's a lot of warging to send a message.  And it's a disturbing message too, with the sigil of House Stark slain by the sigil of House Baratheon and ominous implications for all of Westeros that...

"Oh look!  Puppies!!!"

Maybe Bloodraven doesn't communicate so well after all.

Does Bloodraven occasionally borrow Ghost? Nymeria? I think he does. 

[SirArthur]

Connection: Both Jon and Bloodraven have Blackwood ancestry. (Unless jon is not a Stark)

[WeaselPie]

Bryden warged a wolf to mate with a wolf, one of the forbidden skinchanger rules.  Wolves are superfecund, meaning they can be impregnated by multiple fathers for the same litter.  

Ghost is a "child of three" meaning one of his parents was being skinchanged.   BR was also inhabiting Aerys, this is why Dany is a "child of three."

[kissdbyfire]

35 minutes ago, WeaselPie said:

Bryden warged a wolf to mate with a wolf, one of the forbidden skinchanger rules.  Wolves are superfecund, meaning they can be impregnated by multiple fathers for the same litter.  

Ghost is a "child of three" meaning one of his parents was being skinchanged.   BR was also inhabiting Aerys, this is why Dany is a "child of three."

So what you're saying is that Ghost takes after his dad?

That and that Bloodraven did/skinchanged ________________ (fill in with anything, but as these theories go everything may be a better choice of word). 

[chrisdaw]

If Bloodraven doesn't end up all inside the treenet when he dies then maybe he will second life Ghost.

Maybe its a hint he's been skin changing Ghost, but I think it is coincidental.

Bloodraven's attributes spring from likening him to a rat. Ghost from Jon being an other within the family and his death and resurrection.

[WeaselPie]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That and that Bloodraven did/skinchanged ________________ (fill in with anything, but as these theories go everything may be a better choice of word). 

He's a skinchanger.  You expect he never skinchanged?

 

[The Fattest Leech]

12 hours ago, White Ravens said:

That's a lot of warging to send a message.  And it's a disturbing message too, with the sigil of House Stark slain by the sigil of House Baratheon and ominous implications for all of Westeros that...

"Oh look!  Puppies!!!"

Maybe Bloodraven doesn't communicate so well after all.

Works on me every damned time!

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The connection is the Old Gods. Remember, Bloodraven is half First Men on his mother's side.

ASoS, Jon

“Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.”

 

This is a great quote and quite telling in both what Ghost, and what Ghost isn't.

Later on through Jon's arc, Jon realizes how he and Ghost are one, and by association, Jon and Bloodraven have a connection (kinda like Arya to Lyanna, if that makes sense).

• Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him. Or was it Ghost who smelled him? Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake.

 

11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Does Bloodraven occasionally borrow Ghost? Nymeria? I think he does. 

You have mentioned this before, but I don't remember reading when you see that happening... especially with Nymeria. Do you perhaps have a link to a thread you may share?

[PrinceHenryris]

16 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Connection: Both Jon and Bloodraven have Blackwood ancestry. (Unless jon is not a Stark)

If you believe R+L=J, Jon has Blackwood blood on both sides.  Aegon  V's wife was Betha Blackwood.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You have mentioned this before, but I don't remember reading when you see that happening... especially with Nymeria. Do you perhaps have a link to a thread you may share?

[Says with a Mickey Mouse falsetto] Oh Boy! Do I ever! But I'll just cut and paste this time. This was described the day before Arya had a wolf dream of Nymeria taking down the pursuit from Harrenhal...

Quote

It was growing colder, and pale white mists were threading between the pines and blowing across the bare burned flelds. 

Arya I, Storm

And then...

Quote

She was no little girl in the dream; she was a wolf, huge and powerful, and when she emerged from beneath the trees in front of them and bared her teeth in a low rumbling growl, she could smell the rank stench of fear from horse and man alike. The Lyseni's mount reared and screamed in terror, and the others shouted at one another in mantalk, but before they could act the other wolves came hurtling from the darkness and the rain, a great pack of them, gaunt and wet and silent. 

Arya I, Storm

I think the author was signaling to us that Bloodraven was guiding Nymeria...

Quote

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere. 

The Mystery Knight

And consider this...

Quote

The hunters among the children—their wood dancers—became their warriors as well, but for all their secret arts of tree and leaf, they could only slow the First Men in their advance. The greenseers employed their arts, and tales say that they could call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more. But the First Men proved too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act.

Ancient History, The Coming of the First Men, TWOIAF

[The Fattest Leech]

Aah, Bloodraven hunting down a foe from Lys, like a potential Aerion return? (Just a loose idea) The dude is undying in his work.  

Thanks for the quotes. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Aah, Bloodraven hunting down a foe from Lys, like a potential Aerion return? (Just a loose idea) The dude is undying in his work.  

Thanks for the quotes. 

Ooh, I never made the Lyseni connection. Isn't Lys were they breed beauty with beauty, valuing purity of blood? Ins't Lys where Targaryen kings and princes of old turned to in search of wives and paramours for their blood and beauty? Isn't Lys where Illyrio found Serra? 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

Quote

She was no little girl in the dream; she was a wolf, huge and powerful, and when she emerged from beneath the trees in front of them and bared her teeth in a low rumbling growl, she could smell the rank stench of fear from horse and man alike. The Lyseni's mount reared and screamed in terror, and the others shouted at one another in mantalk, but before they could act the other wolves came hurtling from the darkness and the rain, a great pack of them, gaunt and wet and silent. 

Arya I, Storm

I think the author was signaling to us that Bloodraven was guiding Nymeria...

Quote

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere. 

Nice, good catch.  While I do agree, it also throws up an interesting question of how many consciences can be present or influencing a direwolf whilst their master/other half is sleeping.  We see this scenario play out as a wolf dream through Nymeria's eyes while Arya is sleeping, so it is reasonable to suggest that Arya's conscience is present throughout the scene.  But as you suggest the text hints at the fact Bloodraven is present too while also influencing Nymeria via the repeated description of 'packs of gaunt wolves hunting down foes'.  George is careful in his descriptions during such scenes so the repeated text linked directly to Bloodraven really does back up your idea. 

When Bran skinchanges the raven in BR's cave he could sense another presence, so perhaps the fact Arya is sleeping and only able to view events through Nymeria's eyes enables BR to be there without Arya knowing?  Or perhaps he's skinchanged the entirety of the pack, George playing with the hive mind idea, thus being able to control Nymeria while actually hosting in the other wolves? 

Anyway, nice catch, I like it.                

[Lost Melnibonean]

35 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Nice, good catch.  While I do agree, it also throws up an interesting question of how many consciences can be present or influencing a direwolf whilst their master/other half is sleeping.  We see this scenario play out as a wolf dream through Nymeria's eyes while Arya is sleeping, so it is reasonable to suggest that Arya's conscience is present throughout the scene.  But as you suggest the text hints at the fact Bloodraven is present too while also influencing Nymeria via the repeated description of 'packs of gaunt wolves hunting down foes'.  George is careful in his descriptions during such scenes so the repeated text linked directly to Bloodraven really does back up your idea. 

When Bran skinchanges the raven in BR's cave he could sense another presence, so perhaps the fact Arya is sleeping and only able to view events through Nymeria's eyes enables BR to be there without Arya knowing?  Or perhaps he's skinchanged the entirety of the pack, George playing with the hive mind idea, thus being able to control Nymeria while actually hosting in the other wolves? 

Anyway, nice catch, I like it.                

Doesn't Varmyr tell us that he could feel Orell in the eagle? And didn't he force his old mentor out of one of his wolves? I don't see why we can't have multiple skinchangers invested in one beast. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Doesn't Varmyr tell us that he could feel Orell in the eagle? And didn't he force his old mentor out of one of his wolves? I don't see why we can't have multiple skinchangers invested in one beast. 

Oh definitely, but in all the instances we are given the skinchangers can feel each others presence, as you say, but no hint of it here.  I do agree with you about BR's presence, just wondered why there was no hint of his presence to Arya.  As I say it may be because she was asleep, which is interesting regards wolf dreams, perhaps the ability to sense another presence dissipates as the human mind is asleep?  This is the only occasion I can think of where another presence isn't mentioned at all, although I do agree with you that multiple skinchangers are there.  It opens up another way of searching for BR throughout the wolf dream sequences.     

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Oh definitely, but in all the instances we are given the skinchangers can feel each others presence, as you say, but no hint of it here.  I do agree with you about BR's presence, just wondered why there was no hint of his presence to Arya.  As I say it may be because she was asleep, which is interesting regards wolf dreams, perhaps the ability to sense another presence dissipates as the human mind is asleep?  This is the only occasion I can think of where another presence isn't mentioned at all, although I do agree with you that multiple skinchangers are there.  It opens up another way of searching for BR throughout the wolf dream sequences.     

Maybe you need to know what you're looking for, or at least have an idea? This might also tie into the godhood we learned about in Bran III, Dance and the ability of skinchangers to sense other skinchangers? 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Maybe you need to know what you're looking for, or at least have an idea?

Yes that would help.    You do realise I'm praising your find, it seems like you think I'm arguing the matter, I'm not at all.  Just simply pondering the presence of multiple skinchangers without Arya noticing as all the other instances suggest the skinchanger can feel someone else being there.  It's a cool catch.

21 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This might also tie into the godhood we learned about in Bran III, Dance and the ability of skinchangers to sense other skinchangers? 

Exactly, I'm sure it does.  Perhaps wolf dreams are a way of going unnoticed while one skinchanger is asleep.