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Why didnt Mance or Bloodraven Bloodraven warn Ned Stark??


Stormking902

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Ned is known by ALL to be very honourable so if Mance called upon ned to talk about why he has gathered literally all the wildlings together Ned would listen and at the very least allow Mance to return beyound the wall, since it would be dishonorable to have him captured or killed during negotiations or wah ever. 

Knowing Ned he probably wouldnt believe Mance since any logical man wouldn't but doing his duty to the North he would at least send a few men with Mance to investigate once Neds men inform Ned its true Ned would then convince his Best friend Bonny B to help and if Bobby B didnt believe he would send men but at least the Northerners would be at the wall helping the Nightswatch so NO WOT5K.

 

Also Bloodraven could have reached out to Ned in numerous ways the most obvious would be the weirwood trees Ned would think the old gods themselves were warning Ned of the WW invasion and thus would Deffinitly help. 

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The short answer, because Mance Rayder had no intentions of ever bending his knees and swearing fealty to Ned Stark, or any other lord or lady of Westeros.  Mance wanted to get the wildlings on the safe side of the wall and do it without making compromises.  

Ned, if approached properly, will listen if he can be convinced to come to the other side of the wall and talk with Mance.  But Ned, and any person of authority in Westeros, would require Mance to bend his knees to the authority of the crown before the wildlings can be allowed to cross the wall.  Each wildling will have to swear fealty to their new rulers.  

That is part of the main themes of the story.  The solution is known but people are unwilling to bend and compromise.  I blame the wildlings for this impasse.

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4 hours ago, Tucu said:

Mance would have been executed quickly like Gared.

Bloodraven needed Bran in his cave, so he made small tweaks to the events to get to that result.

You are correct about Ned probably forcing them to bend the knee although a WW invasion might make him ease up a bit and allow them to take a verbal oath to the crown having the walking dead show up at your doorstep can sometimes do that :p. Your also correct about needing Bran at the cave never thought of that. 

 

However you are wrong about Ned executing Mance yes Mance is a deserter of the NW but now he is king beyond the wall and if Ned agreed to sit down for negotiations/talks he is honour bound to allow him to return safly home sure 90 percent of Westeros would just kill him but absolutly not ned 

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31 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The short answer, because Mance Rayder had no intentions of ever bending his knees and swearing fealty to Ned Stark, or any other lord or lady of Westeros.  Mance wanted to get the wildlings on the safe side of the wall and do it without making compromises.  

Ned, if approached properly, will listen if he can be convinced to come to the other side of the wall and talk with Mance.  But Ned, and any person of authority in Westeros, would require Mance to bend his knees to the authority of the crown before the wildlings can be allowed to cross the wall.  Each wildling will have to swear fealty to their new rulers.  

That is part of the main themes of the story.  The solution is known but people are unwilling to bend and compromise.  I blame the wildlings for this impasse.

See the reply I made to TUCU sorry thought it was u who said both things......... 

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I think the Others themselves tried to warn  everyone by letting Gared live. They clearly set a trap for the rangers and may even have been looking for Waymar specifically. It seems unlikely that he spied their trap and then evaded them simply by climbing a tree (certainly they can count to 3). They knew that Gared saw the bodies and then removed them as soon as he left to get Waymar and Will, expecting the party to return. 

I believe Mance did intend to parly with Ned at some point, because he tells Jon that he snuck into Winterfell specifically to get the measure of him and his potential heirs, as well as King Robert. He wanted to see if his southern counterparts could deal in good faith.

As far as Ned goes, he doesn't believe in the Old Gods' power. He's like a churchgoer who finds comfort in the ritual, but doesn't really believe the supernatural stuff. Just imagine if you told some jaded catholic that you had seen Gabriel unfurl his scroll and the horsemen ride forth. That's what Ned thinks when Gared speaks to him before the execution. Recall that he ignored the wolf/stag omen shortly after, and allows the pups to live out of pity for his children rather than belief that they were "meant" to have them (despite Jon's argument).

 

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32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Because it could bloody explain why Bloodraven didn't try to communicate with Ned.

Well Theon sort of hears Bran.

But maybe BR has some hints as to Ned's fate, and knows that it's useless trying to warn him because manpower is not what's needed to defeat the Others.

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12 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Coldhands can't pass the Wall, and the Wildlings already know about the Others. Who else would Coldhands tell?

He could have gone to Castle Black, knocked the door and told them that obsidian kills WWs and fire works for wights.

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The Ned would probably listen to everything Mance had to say, and take it seriously. The likelihood of Mance being executed for desertion anyway is very high, as has been discussed above.  

Mance's unwillingness to bend the knee has also been well explained.  But for the exchange to take place at all you'd have to get Mance over the wall to Winterfell, or get The Ned over the wall to the true North, or perhaps they could meet at castle black and treat under the shadow of the Wall.

There is no reason why the Night's Watch shouldn't just kill Mance on sight, even if he were to arrive with a crown on his head,  full honor guard, a herald, etc.  He's still a deserter.

But Mance leaving at all could be a  problem. He  is the King Beyond the Wall. Much and more has been said about the Free Folk following him for his quality, not his ancestry.  He *is* his kingdom. If he dies, is captured, or- imho- is gone too long, his coalition will fall apart. 

Yes, he risked himself and everything he'd been building for twenty years (is that number right? Or am i misremembering something from the show?) when he visited Winterfell during Robert's stay, but that was a calculated risk.  No one knew him, and he can easily pass for a Kneeler. The only one with even a passing chance to know him by description would have been Benjen, but Mance stayed well away from the dais.

Traveling south with the *intent* of exposing himself (hur hur) is an altogether different story.

Nor could Mance send an envoy.  The closest thing he has to a Hand is Tormund Giantsbane. Think about that. This is the kind of guy that would likely demand the office be renamed the Member of the King. (Har!)

 To deal with a foreign ruler you need an ambassador, with knowledge of language, customs , and basic courtesies.  A noble would be ideal. Or someone raised in the South, but any such men would likely also be deserters from the Watch, or some other very desperate outlaw.

The Magnar might do as a noble, and could speak with courtesy, understand guest rights and obligations, etc, but even getting him in front of the Ned isn't enough.  All the previous posts explain the whole problem with knees, and bending. 

 In my opinion the only way to safely get Mance in front of the Ned would be for him to show up at the wall with enough force that he could not be killed out of hand... A retinue large enough to force the Warden of the North to pay attention and take Mance seriously... to see him as a leader, not a mere outlaw.

In that scenario there  might be  a slim chance of getting through the wall without a war, if knees would be bending. Without the kneeling, I really can't see it. I mean maybe?  Eh.

Plus I'm sure at least some part of the Free Folk are not only expecting a fight but spoiling for one.  

 But Mance didn't really need diplomacy, because he really might have pulled off the invasion.  He had a good plan I think, but Stannis shut him down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, cgrav said:

As far as Ned goes, he doesn't believe in the Old Gods' power. He's like a churchgoer who finds comfort in the ritual, but doesn't really believe the supernatural stuff. Just imagine if you told some jaded catholic that you had seen Gabriel unfurl his scroll and the horsemen ride forth. That's what Ned thinks when Gared speaks to him before the execution. Recall that he ignored the wolf/stag omen shortly after, and allows the pups to live out of pity for his children rather than belief that they were "meant" to have them (despite Jon's argument).

I agree with you about the Ned's, beliefs, but I'm not sure it matters. I doubt that the Old Gods demand belief from their adherents in the way that modern religions do.

Ned observes the old ways. He seems to be very bound by his moral code, which is distinctly Northern and First Mannish. Cat said that he always retreats to the Godswood and sits under the heart tree when he is troubled.   The Old Gods are there listening to him, and absorbing his thoughts through the weirwood.  He cleans his bloody sword under the tree. 

That's almost like a blood tribute.  If the execution that bloodied the sword was obedience to the old ways, to begin with, the whole experience speaks of his observances of the his religion.

 The Old Gods get his obedience, his reliance, and his blood sacrifices.  That puts him in their good standing, in my humble opinion.

Old Gods gonna god, Ned... deal with it.  

 

 

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