Star Trek: Discovery #2, set phasers to stunned.

[Corvinus85]

I thought Lorca's argument to his supporters was that Georgiou had gotten sloppy, and had let rebellion foment for too long and that he would do a better job. It is kinda flimsy, and I hope Georgiou doesn't get some kind of redemption arc. I really don't know why Michael saved her.

[SpaceChampion]

It's a mistake she'll have to learn from.  Burnham keeps making mistakes due to fear or sentiment or other emotions.  That's not a flaw in the show, it's a consistency in her that she has to grow from by the end of the season.  She'll probably have to embrace Vulcan logic to avoid making more mistakes, but it leaves her in a place for season 2 in which she's rejected emotion, something unlikely sustainable, or she accepts that she makes mistakes.

[karaddin]

Again I just find I have a fundamentally different take on the show to others and I'm not sure how to reconcile it. I didn't feel the show depicted MU!Georgious as necessarily objectively better than Lorca. It left open the possibility of that, but it would require to know if there is any basis to his claim of greater speciesism etc. The difference between them is personal and expedient - Lorca didn't listen to Michael, he simply tried to impress his mental image of her (which isn't even the same as her MU version, let alone PU Michael) against all her objections and he was going to use the technology that was killing the network. Georgiou listened to Michael, took what she said on board, accepted that she had lost and helped destroy her own flagship. It's not a difference in the past that makes her the one with a shot at redemption, its a difference in the now.

As to whether she deserves or gets redemption? Needs more information than we currently have. From the second episode in the MU it seemed that Discovery is arguing the only difference between PU and MU characters it the circumstances they have lived their lives in. I'm not sure if this jives with previous iterations where it felt like, in DS9 at least, the evil MU versions of characters were fundamentally evil rather than evil due to their lives. With this interpretation, Georgiou may have the character to evolve now she's placed in different fundamentally different circumstances. Or maybe she won't and she'll be killed in the finale.

[DaveSumm]

Sooo.....I’ve been enjoying Discovery, despite being constantly distracted by how much more awesome it’d be if they just set it 20 years post Voyager....but that episode annoyed me. Two utterly dumb decisions; hey, what happened last time we let Ash roam around the ship? Oh, he killed the doctor. But he’s OK now, I mean we don’t understand the procedure ourselves, but this super helpful Klingon L’Rell says he’s fine now. And she definitely wouldn’t have any motive for secretly deploying the exact plan we knew they had to begin with. So yea, roam about, have lunch. Hope you don’t bump into Stamets, that’d be awkward!

And then the supremely stupid Giorgiou plan. Granted, we don’t know exactly what info she’s provided, but no fucking way does Starfleet let someone waltz into someone else’s life and assume Captaincy like that. Soooooo stupid. And did I miss something or did the plan already hang together? They spore jump into Kronos, destroy military targets (or maybe blow up the whole place), what exactly has the empress given them?

[Werthead]

7 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Sooo.....I’ve been enjoying Discovery, despite being constantly distracted by how much more awesome it’d be if they just set it 20 years post Voyager....but that episode annoyed me. Two utterly dumb decisions; hey, what happened last time we let Ash roam around the ship? Oh, he killed the doctor. But he’s OK now, I mean we don’t understand the procedure ourselves, but this super helpful Klingon L’Rell says he’s fine now. And she definitely wouldn’t have any motive for secretly deploying the exact plan we knew they had to begin with. So yea, roam about, have lunch. Hope you don’t bump into Stamets, that’d be awkward!

And then the supremely stupid Giorgiou plan. Granted, we don’t know exactly what info she’s provided, but no fucking way does Starfleet let someone waltz into someone else’s life and assume Captaincy like that. Soooooo stupid. And did I miss something or did the plan already hang together? They spore jump into Kronos, destroy military targets (or maybe blow up the whole place), what exactly has the empress given them?

A WMD. My guess is that Georgiou convinced Sarek that the orbital bombardment plan was too risky and the only way to be sure was to detonate spore-based weapon within the planet itself.

It's entirely possible this will result in some crazy cross-universe horseshit and result in all Klingons everywhere turning into their former selves. Which would be welcome, although also complete bollocks (if it was only done so we get the "ta-da!" surprise of Tyler, which would not have worked with the old makeup).

[karaddin]

Knowledge of the cavern was the crucial piece of information she gave them, which she got via Michael. I don't think the captaincy is about information so much as willingness to fight total war that Star Fleet officers would shy away from.

It's still a dumb plan but I think it's meant to be coming from desperation. There's also the possibility that the Admiral is section 31. I think the desperation is one of the things that wasn't sold well due to the pace being a bit rushed - that kind of despair takes time to build up.

ETA: Ok Werts spore WMD would work with my idea as well - and gives the setup for fucking with the time line. I don't see how this current time line could possibly turn into TOS, so I feel either something like this needs to happen or the plan fails/earth falls first and Michael convinces them to jump back in time.

[RumHam]

Speaking of Section 31, am I right that we never saw those black com badges again after the third episode? 

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

A WMD. My guess is that Georgiou convinced Sarek that the orbital bombardment plan was too risky and the only way to be sure was to detonate spore-based weapon within the planet itself.

It's entirely possible this will result in some crazy cross-universe horseshit and result in all Klingons everywhere turning into their former selves. Which would be welcome, although also complete bollocks (if it was only done so we get the "ta-da!" surprise of Tyler, which would not have worked with the old makeup).

Honestly all they had to do to avoid the old makeup giving it away was cast another actor for Voq. It actually makes no sense that Voq has any resemblance to Ash Tyler, so using the same actor and pretending they weren't was really dumb. 

[Annara Snow]

On 2/2/2018 at 5:30 AM, karaddin said:

 

As to whether she deserves or gets redemption? Needs more information than we currently have. From the second episode in the MU it seemed that Discovery is arguing the only difference between PU and MU characters it the circumstances they have lived their lives in. I'm not sure if this jives with previous iterations where it felt like, in DS9 at least, the evil MU versions of characters were fundamentally evil rather than evil due to their lives. With this interpretation, Georgiou may have the character to evolve now she's placed in different fundamentally different circumstances. Or maybe she won't and she'll be killed in the finale.

Well, that's because (much as I love DS9 otherwise) DS9 Mirror Universe episodes sucked really hard. I don't think they ever meant to imply that anyone in the MU was "fundamentally evil" - which would have been extremely stupid and absurd, since 1) the idea of people being born evil or born good is idiotic in itself, and the "born evil" theories (e.g. Lombroso's 19th century theory of born criminals) have fortunately been left on the trash heap of history, together with phrenology, racial theories and other awful pseudo-science; and 2) even if one believes in that crap even now (and yes, there are some people who do), in this case it would still make no sense whatsoever, since the MU versions of the characters from the Prime Universe are literally the same people who grew up in different circumstances.

The whole original point of the Mirror Universe plot device (and any good AU story) is to point out how different anyone could have been under different circumstances, and that it's not any 'inherent monstrosity' that creates evil tyrannical regimes and fascist societies, but historical circumstances, which can happen to any society, anywhere, any time; it was to say "no, we humans aren't intrinsically wonderful; we have to actually work on being good". And sure, it's also to have fun by having actors dress differently (usually more sexily) and play different (mostly evil) versions of their characters. But the DS9 writers clearly never gave any thought to the MCU episodes and just saw them as nothing but a fun, stupid diversion with people dressing up and playing different characters (so different that they never seemed like they actually could be those people under different circumstances), plus some girl-on-girl action (which led to Unfortunate Implications that good people are straight while their evil versions are Depraved Bisexuals or evil lesbians).

The question is not "is MU Georgiou/whoever inherently evil/born evil". Of course they're not. No one is. But that doesn't mean that they can "get redemption". People are shaped by their upbringing, the circumstances in which they developed, their experiences, their beliefs and their own past choices. In real life, redemption usually doesn't happen overnight. And in fact, it very rarely happens for people who are anything like the Emperor (or even 10% as evil as she's been). Reforming a teenager who's made a mistake is one thing; reforming an experienced, mature adult, confident and entrenched in their views, with about three decades of evil actions behind them, and no remorse, insecurity or sign of wavering from their course - frankly, it seems almost impossible. And even if it were possible, it sure couldn't happen overnight. She's not going to just suddenly realize how wrong she's been and become remorseful, sincerely apologize for her crimes and become an ethical person and a tolerant egalitarian who respects Kelpians and all other sapient species. That would be extremely unrealistic. She may perhaps learn to pretend, but that's all.

But this episode has assuaged many of my earlier misgivings regarding the narrative treatment of the Emperor. I love the fact that she's been just as awful and arrogant as she's always been, and that it doesn't seem like there will be any "redemption". Instead, she's a catalyst for the Starfleet essentially doing the "US government hires Nazi scientists like Wernher Von Braun  to help them win the Cold War" thing. It can't be just her intel, or else she wouldn't be leading the mission - the Admiral has clearly decided that they need to learn to be as ruthless as Terrans to win the war (which is set up to be the source of upcoming conflict between her and Burnham/Saru). So, now the show is finally doing the "morally ambiguous and ruthless Starfleet officer" thing, only with the Admiral rather than Lorca (as people who didn't think he was from MU believed his role was). Ironically, after finding out Lorca was from MCU, the Admiral is now passing another MU interloper as the real deal Starfleet officer.

 

[RumHam]

35 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

<snip>

You have dishonored my father with your words.

But personally I've given up on trying to figure out the nature of the mirror universe(s?). I do wan't to see Mirror Borg though. I'd imagine they're extremely helpful. Whether you want them to help or not. 

[Annara Snow]

18 minutes ago, RumHam said:

 

But personally I've given up on trying to figure out the nature of the mirror universe(s?). 

It's not like it's all that complicated - at least not the social aspects? Humans evil, humans conquer. Everything sucks and everyone is stabbing each other in the back in the Terran Empire. Humans have no honor, because honor is stupid and gets you killed. There are many characters with the same names as the characters we know and love, but they are shockingly unrecognizable, like they're the exact opposite of what they're supposed to be. Basically, it's like GoT.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

The Federation was way more amenable to working with Mirror Georgiou than I thought.  I was expecting them to be way more resistant to what she was proposing.  

[fionwe1987]

32 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

The Federation was way more amenable to working with Mirror Georgiou than I thought.  I was expecting them to be way more resistant to what she was proposing.  

Based on the promo for the finale, it looks like Michael (and maybe Saru), will be the ones to object. I have a feeling that the finale will circle back to the choice Burnham had in the first episode: betray Georgiu for a larger purpose, or not. This time again, I expect she will, the decision made all the harder given the emotional issues involved, but she'll do it for the right reasons this time: to keep the principles of Starfleet alive. And her act will show some Klingons at least that Starfleet is worth dealing with, and that T'kuvma was wrong about them.

That would be a good ending for the season, I think.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

7 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Based on the promo for the finale, it looks like Michael (and maybe Saru), will be the ones to object. I have a feeling that the finale will circle back to the choice Burnham had in the first episode: betray Georgiu for a larger purpose, or not. This time again, I expect she will, the decision made all the harder given the emotional issues involved, but she'll do it for the right reasons this time: to keep the principles of Starfleet alive. And her act will show some Klingons at least that Starfleet is worth dealing with, and that T'kuvma was wrong about them.

That would be a good ending for the season, I think.

That sounds about right. I like how Georgiou appealed to Sarek's logic when making her pitch. But you're right, I got that sense that Burnham and Saru are going to be the ones to stop it. 

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

You have dishonored my father with your words.

But personally I've given up on trying to figure out the nature of the mirror universe(s?). I do wan't to see Mirror Borg though. I'd imagine they're extremely helpful. Whether you want them to help or not. 

We are the Borg, assistance is inevitable.

[red snow]

I'm really confused with what's happening with ash. I was under the impression Klingon underwent surgery to look like ash. Now it seems more like Klingon was grafted onto Ash? Just seems really odd they are accepting he's Ash. Surely he's still the Klingon but with a mind wipe?

Feels a lot less interesting than the Klingon struggling with possibility he prefers being human. 

[Corvinus85]

18 minutes ago, red snow said:

I'm really confused with what's happening with ash. I was under the impression Klingon underwent surgery to look like ash. Now it seems more like Klingon was grafted onto Ash? Just seems really odd they are accepting he's Ash. Surely he's still the Klingon but with a mind wipe?

Feels a lot less interesting than the Klingon struggling with possibility he prefers being human. 

Yeah, what they're doing with Ash feels like a cop out. It may be that they are doing their own version of Picard/Locutus, but the problem is they are doing it with an unknown character. We don't really know old Ash that well.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

What are the odds of Stamets realizing the spores are sentient in the next episode?

[SpaceChampion]

Quentin Tarantino talks about what he'd do with Star Trek

[ithanos]

I'm also confused about Ashvoq. I would've referred it being just Voq - who had surgery to convert his physiology to pass as human, and had implanted upon him the false memories of Ash. Like Doug Quaid in Total Recall - where the new persona realises the old one was an asshole and would rather keep with the new, simple.

I'm liking this show but some things still irk. Why have both Sarek and Cornwall comment on Alt Giorgiou's resemblance, to their Giorgiou, as being remarkable? Argh! There is no resemblance - its the same person but from an alternate universe.