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Star Trek: Discovery #2, set phasers to stunned.

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I wonder how different it would have turned out if Bryan Fuller had stayed?

 

It would have gone monstrously over-budget and Fuller would have quit/been fired between seasons anyway.

 

Edited by Werthead

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The Orville is pretty bad. I still watch it for some reason mind.

Edited by lessthanluke

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4 hours ago, Werthead said:

It would have gone monstrously over-budget and Fuller would have quit/been fired between seasons anyway.

For me the question is more ‘what if Fuller had never been hired?’ It’s hard to know what aspects of this season were just making the best of the situation, given that it was an anthology fairly deep into production that they then had to turn into a regular show. I really hope Season 2 is more sure of itself, more even in tone and direction.

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I really enjoyed season 1. Not without reservations, but I enjoyed it. I don't have a Trek background at all. The final episode was the weakest, in that the writing, especially towards the end, was shaky and heavy on the Parmesan, but I definitely enjoyed the series as a whole and loved a lot of the characters and performances. Looking forward to season 2. 

 

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I just saw the final episode. Like the season overall I enjoyed it and there were bits I really liked but also some significant flaws. I agree with some of the comments above that it felt a bit rushed, and giving the detonator to L'Rell seems a bit of a bizarre plan - the council scene was also a bit odd where she threatens them with the detonator without explaining why it is such a threat. It does seem to risk L'Rell uniting the Klingons and then deciding to resume the war again more effectively than before.

I'll definitely watch the second season, hopefully they'll come up with a good idea for what to do with it.

On 17/02/2018 at 2:18 PM, Annara Snow said:

I also wanted to like this show because I'm sick and tired of people going "The Orville is better" and "The Orville is more genuinely Trek" - which doesn't say anything to me anyway: there's a lot of the Trek franchise that is great, but there's also a lot of the Trek franchise that is crap. And whatever people may say, I just don't want to give a chance to a show that is 1) starring Seth MacFarlaine (in itself enough to turn me off from anything) and 2) has Brannon Braga in its staff. (Explanation for non-Trekkies: Braga was one of the major Trek showrunners/writers, and, with Rick Berman, was responsible for most of Voyager, the first two seasons of Enterprise and the awful series finale of the latter being bland, safe, repetitive TV ranging from meh to terrible. Seeing his name makes me think "I bet it's very Trek-like...but in a bad way.")

I find The Orville to be watchable but a bit confused about what show it wants to be. For the most part it's trying to be a fairly straight TNG-style show but there's always some comedy injected into it, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing but the comedy generally isn't funny (with occasional exceptions like the episode where they try to explain practical jokes to Isaac) and the silliness tends to undermine the more serious bits of the episode. The main cast are fine (and it's done a better job of introducing the entire bridge crew than Discovery) and I quite like the idea of a more traditional Trek-style show, so hopefully the show can improve, I think the problems are potentially fixable.

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I think that comparing it at this point to DS9 is unfair - you need to compare just the first season. Tastes will vary and I think its reasonable to prefer DS9 first season (or pick your preferred show) I would argue that it was far more consistent in quality than the first season of DS9. If the show runners have more stability and get the full season plotted out the way they want, I think we'll have a better indication of how we can expect the show to be after this.

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I dunno. There isn't a single episode in Disco's first season that comes close to Duet, which a stone-cold, all-time classic.

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But there wasn't an episode that comes close to Move Along Home for awfulness. The acting was mostly good, the production values are phenomenal. I can understand peoples objections to some of the plot decisions, but overall it was well put together. DS9 season 1 had a few good episodes but they were not the norm. Most of the first season was a boring slog I only got through because I knew I'd enjoy the story later on.

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On ‎20‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 1:43 AM, karaddin said:

But there wasn't an episode that comes close to Move Along Home for awfulness. The acting was mostly good, the production values are phenomenal. I can understand peoples objections to some of the plot decisions, but overall it was well put together. DS9 season 1 had a few good episodes but they were not the norm. Most of the first season was a boring slog I only got through because I knew I'd enjoy the story later on.

Am I the only one who thinks Move Along Home is actually kinda amusing?

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11 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Am I the only one who thinks Move Along Home is actually kinda amusing?

It's a silly episode, but I thought it was entertaining enough. I think there are worse early DS9 episodes such as the one where Bashir and O'Brien end up in the middle of a Bajoran legend.

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On 20/02/2018 at 0:43 AM, karaddin said:

But there wasn't an episode that comes close to Move Along Home for awfulness. The acting was mostly good, the production values are phenomenal. I can understand peoples objections to some of the plot decisions, but overall it was well put together. DS9 season 1 had a few good episodes but they were not the norm. Most of the first season was a boring slog I only got through because I knew I'd enjoy the story later on.

Move Along Home is Grade-A excellent. Well, it isn't, at all, but it's the first DS9 episode that really subverts "the standard Star Trek crap" with its ending. "Wait, we were never in danger?" "Of course not, it's just a game! That would be psychotic!" The Q episode did something similar but was way too on the nose (so to speak). Move Along Home did that, "We love TNG but it was also often bollocks and we're going to rip the piss out of it now," thing the show later turned into an elevated artform.

Emissary is also the best pilot episode of any Trek show (and it isn't even close), Battle Lines is a very good, early-subversive episode, In the Hands of the Prophets is pretty good and Progress is a very solid Kira episode (complete with her trying to do the "usual Star Trek crap" routine and then blowing things up when that doesn't work). The first episode is definitely the weakest of the show's run, but that's not the same as saying it's bad (which you can say about TNGVoyager and Enterprise, although both had okay episodes in there).

 

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It's a silly episode, but I thought it was entertaining enough. I think there are worse early DS9 episodes such as the one where Bashir and O'Brien end up in the middle of a Bajoran legend.

The Storyteller? That wasn't great, but I did like it as it set up the Bashir/O'Brien friendship which later became a cornerstone of the show. If Wishes Were Horses was easily the worst episode of the first season and would have been worse if the planned leprechaun scene had been filmed. It pissed off Colm Meaney so much that he actually verbally unloaded on the producers about it and accused them of outright racism against the Irish, so they changed it to Rumpelstiltskin (you can tell from his performance this didn't mollify him much). 

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I had actually purged that episode from my memory, yeah I wasn't a fan of that either. You clearly feel a lot more positive about the first season than I do and it's hard for either of us to judge it without our biases. I'm assuming you've seen it more than once (which inherently tends to reveal a lot more details of value than a first viewing, this very much happens with me and Farscape) even if you aren't letting nostalgia colour your opinion, on my part I really struggle with the older style of acting, the older set design, film that it's shot on, special effects and costuming/make up etc. After a few seasons of adjusting this stuff just became background, but the first season? If the episode wasn't brilliant, this made it painful. I also loathed Bashir and O'Brien early on and had major issues with how Dax was used.

Of the others you mentioned I thought Battle Lines was OK but not brilliant, In the Hands of the Prophet didn't do it for me and Progress was great - I didn't actually remember that as season 1. I maintain Move Along Home was terrible though. Perhaps the subversion going on there doesn't land when you're less familiar with the trope? And before I had attachment to the characters.

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8 hours ago, Werthead said:

Move Along Home is Grade-A excellent. Well, it isn't, at all, but it's the first DS9 episode that really subverts "the standard Star Trek crap" with its ending. "Wait, we were never in danger?" "Of course not, it's just a game! That would be psychotic!" The Q episode did something similar but was way too on the nose (so to speak). Move Along Home did that, "We love TNG but it was also often bollocks and we're going to rip the piss out of it now," thing the show later turned into an elevated artform.

Emissary is also the best pilot episode of any Trek show (and it isn't even close), Battle Lines is a very good, early-subversive episode, In the Hands of the Prophets is pretty good and Progress is a very solid Kira episode (complete with her trying to do the "usual Star Trek crap" routine and then blowing things up when that doesn't work). The first episode is definitely the weakest of the show's run, but that's not the same as saying it's bad (which you can say about TNGVoyager and Enterprise, although both had okay episodes in there).

 

TNG season 1 had OK episodes? :o I can't think of any. I really think TNG season 1 was outright horrible, not just by the show later standards or Trek standards- in general. The best I can say about it is that some episodes weren't awful. Much of season 2 was the same, but S2 actually did have some good and one great episode. 

 
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The Storyteller? That wasn't great, but I did like it as it set up the Bashir/O'Brien friendship which later became a cornerstone of the show. If Wishes Were Horses was easily the worst episode of the first season and would have been worse if the planned leprechaun scene had been filmed. It pissed off Colm Meaney so much that he actually verbally unloaded on the producers about it and accused them of outright racism against the Irish, so they changed it to Rumpelstiltskin (you can tell from his performance this didn't mollify him much).

I didn't know that. Way to go, Colm Meaney. :thumbsup:
If only he had had the clout to do the same on TNG when they made Up the Long Ladder (though that episode is stupid and offensive in so many different ways that even that wouldn't have helped), or been around on VOY when they were making those silly Irish village holodeck episodes.

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The important thing is that nothing in Star Trek Discovery Season 1 approaches the greatness of the best sci-fi TV episode of the millennium, Battlestar Galactica's Black Market.

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14 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

TNG season 1 had OK episodes? :o I can't think of any. I really think TNG season 1 was outright horrible, not just by the show later standards or Trek standards- in general. The best I can say about it is that some episodes weren't awful. Much of season 2 was the same, but S2 actually did have some good and one great episode. 

TNG Season 1 had I think one pretty decent episode, Heart of Glory, the Klingon one. There's a few others are quite watchable, even if they're nonsensical or weird (The Arsenal of Freedom is fun but makes no sense). Conspiracy is worth watching just because the producers clearly got blasted on drugs at some point ("Shall we have a phaser burn someone's face off and cause their head to explode like a melon on-camera?" "Sure!"). I kind of liked 11001001 for being how clever in it reused special effects from the movies (just swapping out the matte elements) and made it look really good. The first Dixon Hill story is okay. The Battle started going in an interesting direction but the villain went pantomime at the end.

The funniest thing is watching the HD remaster of TNG S1 which looks stunning, like it was shot yesterday, with impressive redone effects and you then have this really laboured late-1980s TV acting and these awful, outright sexist storylines. It's a very weird combination.

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On 2018-02-19 at 1:09 AM, karaddin said:

I think that comparing it at this point to DS9 is unfair - you need to compare just the first season. Tastes will vary and I think its reasonable to prefer DS9 first season (or pick your preferred show) I would argue that it was far more consistent in quality than the first season of DS9. If the show runners have more stability and get the full season plotted out the way they want, I think we'll have a better indication of how we can expect the show to be after this.

I can't believe I'm only just now getting into a DS9 digression, but I disagree. DS9 did far, far better at introducing and developing its characters, but it also had a 20-episode first season. Even so, none of the overarching ideas amounted to the kinds of wild swings and almost random approach of Disco. And while I did enjoy Disco, the character writing was kinda all over the place, with plots relying far too much on "twists" and science magic than I really care for. I can see it becoming a great show, but they're not there yet by any means. I mean Elim fucking Garak had appeared by the third episode of DS9

In any case, Disco has the potential. They've been taking risks, which I like, but I need to see they can learn from mistakes (e.g. almost everything about the new Klingon design and similarly underwriting them to an extreme - we got way more back in Sins of the Father when we first saw Qonos). 

On 2018-02-19 at 3:43 PM, Werthead said:

I dunno. There isn't a single episode in Disco's first season that comes close to Duet, which a stone-cold, all-time classic.

This. Captive Pursuit, Dax, The Nagus, Vortex, Battlelines, Progress, The Forsaken, and In the Hands of the Prophets (hello Vedek Winn!) were all pretty solid too. Then we got a three-part season opener next year. 

On 2018-02-19 at 9:13 PM, karaddin said:

But there wasn't an episode that comes close to Move Along Home for awfulness. The acting was mostly good, the production values are phenomenal. I can understand peoples objections to some of the plot decisions, but overall it was well put together. DS9 season 1 had a few good episodes but they were not the norm. Most of the first season was a boring slog I only got through because I knew I'd enjoy the story later on.

I understand why Avery Brooks hated it (I would do if I had to sing "Allamaraine, count to four..."), but I always liked it way back when I first watched it. The first season is kinda slow moving but it's fun enough. 

On 2018-02-21 at 4:40 PM, Werthead said:

Move Along Home is Grade-A excellent. Well, it isn't, at all, but it's the first DS9 episode that really subverts "the standard Star Trek crap" with its ending. "Wait, we were never in danger?" "Of course not, it's just a game! That would be psychotic!" The Q episode did something similar but was way too on the nose (so to speak). Move Along Home did that, "We love TNG but it was also often bollocks and we're going to rip the piss out of it now," thing the show later turned into an elevated artform.

Emissary is also the best pilot episode of any Trek show (and it isn't even close), Battle Lines is a very good, early-subversive episode, In the Hands of the Prophets is pretty good and Progress is a very solid Kira episode (complete with her trying to do the "usual Star Trek crap" routine and then blowing things up when that doesn't work). The first episode is definitely the weakest of the show's run, but that's not the same as saying it's bad (which you can say about TNGVoyager and Enterprise, although both had okay episodes in there).

The Storyteller? That wasn't great, but I did like it as it set up the Bashir/O'Brien friendship which later became a cornerstone of the show. If Wishes Were Horses was easily the worst episode of the first season and would have been worse if the planned leprechaun scene had been filmed. It pissed off Colm Meaney so much that he actually verbally unloaded on the producers about it and accused them of outright racism against the Irish, so they changed it to Rumpelstiltskin (you can tell from his performance this didn't mollify him much). 

The Storyteller isn't super great, but I really love seeing the state of Bashir/O'Brien then when the latter can barely stand the good doctor. There's a great bit scene in (I think) Q-Less where O'Brien listens in silence while Bashir chats up some girl and the look on his face is just...  :D

And no one is going to be offended by an evil German goblin man. 

Re: TNG season one - 

The fact that anyone kept watching after Code of Honor is more astounding in retrospect than anything else. 

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